Attacking high level mages - what's your strategies and bugbears?

[kiwidoc]

I've played BG2 more times than seems humanly possible One of the problems I think I've never really got to grips with is attacking high level wizards. I thought it could be interesting to find out the problems other people run across, and the ways they tackle them.

MY BUGBEARS
How do you attack a wizards who is sanctuaried, or high level invisible? Even if you have true sight you can't target them with spells, so you can't peel away their spell protection.

MY STRATEGY
This sounds really lame but its the only way I can find that works I just try to stay alive till their protection wears off. I make some high level summoned creatures, throw them at the wiz and spend a lot of time running away.

OK, now that I've confessed, it's time to hear your ideas

[Tricky]

There are munchkins. I can't defeat the whole slur of wizards that comes after you after breaking the rules in Amn, but single wizards can be taken care of with 2 invulnerability scrolls and some kind of summon that is strong enough to do magical damage, like a fire elemental. Cast one scroll on yourself and one on your summon, then let the summon hack away at things. Sit back and cast the occasional support spell.

This method sets you back quite a bit financially speaking, but if the loot is worth the expense.. bye bye, Kangaxx.

[koz-ivan]

with mages it's usually a combo of keldorn + holy avenger & minsc / anomen w/ the flail of ages.

keldoen is pretty good at brute forcing the protections away, meanwhile the elemental damage + slow is usually enough to keep bad things from happening, once there is blood in the water a whirlwind or two will finish them.

[kiwidoc]

Thanks for the replies guys. I ran into this situation on a big way when playing the [url="http://www.spellholdstudios.net/ie/edwin"]Edwin Romance mod[/url]. There's a huge fight with three serious mages a and a lich ... and I had great difficulty with it. I eventually won, but then disaster struck and wiped all my save games till the last back up I tried it again with a much heavier reliance on summoned creatures - especially a Hakeashar - and it was MUCH easier

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Yeah, I usually just let them waste their good spells on a few summoned creatures (with a character with True Sight nearby to deal with any Projected Images or Invisibility spells), then send in the party to finish the job. The Staff of the Magis Spell Trap is good too, as is Melf's for spell disruption. I've also made Valygar a Wizard Slayer/Thief multi via Level 1 NPCs so he'll be a game changer next time I take him through.
Liches are a different matter, and after a Greater Malison usually fall to Azuredge or the Mace of Disruption and/or a Sunray or two, or just chunked with Turn Undead when possible.

[Crenshinibon]

I never really bother bother removing their protections. I just brute-force them, and that's with elemental weapons, since the elemental damage goes through certain protections (such as Stoneskin and occasionally Mirror Image). Improved Mante and it's child spell are the only ones that I usually wait out, but then again, I can usually focus on someone else and shrug off the incoming spells.

[Sykar]

What I do not get is why Spell Thrust does not work properly. In its description it says that it brings down Minor Globe and Spell Immunity but it does seem like it never works when SI Abj and/or Globe is cast.

No idea why.

Ok just because I was suspicious I tested some more and NONE of the spell protection removers works, not RRR not Spell Thrust not Pierce Magic NOTHING.

Damn I must have seriously done somethign wrong with modding. No wonder the fight with Tolgerisas was nigh impossible since I could do nothing and only a lucky blind with GM and Glitterdust manged to win me the fight after a dozen reloads.

Ok some more testing revealed that Pierce Magic, Pierce Shield,Khelbens Warding Whip and Spellstrike work properly. They actually take down SI:Abj as well.
Just not Spell Thrust and RRR. I think I installed the component by SCSII to give them a small AoE area but can that be the reason those two o not work at all?

[Crenshinibon]

It's entirely possible that the mage in question is also under the effects of Spell Immunity: Alteration, which in theory should protect the user against ALL Alteration spells. Same thing should go for Spell Immunity: Abjuration (although it appears that your spells worked). I'm pretty sure that in the unmodded game it works the way I described, so if you stack Spell Immunity enough times, you'll be immune to ALL spells.

[Sykar]

SI: Abjuration should not work against Spell Protectio Removers. Afaik all of them specifically state that they remove SI.

SI: Abjuration should work only against Breach and Dispel/Remove Magic imho.

[Sykar]

SI: Abjuration should not work against Spell Protectio Removers. Afaik all of them specifically state that they remove SI.

SI: Abjuration should work only against Breach and Dispel/Remove Magic imho.

Even though my game is modded besides adding an AoE effect to Spell Thrust, Secret Word and RRR none of my mods touch the spell protection removers.

The reason I just found out why those spells didn't work when I tested them on Jan is simple: DavidW made them party friendly. After knowing that I feel dumb.

Edit: Sorry for double post I thought I edited my post properly.

[Philos]

High Level Mages **Some Spoilers**

I don't have any mods so my strategies may not apply to a game that has been.

I like to keep several Breach spells and a Pierce Magic or two handy when about to assault a high level mage. Will often have a scroll as back up, since they aren't too hard to come by. Being a 5th level spell spell it will fill up the Spell absorption spell quickly.

Wands are wonderful for killing anything. But the advantage with a mage is that the is basically a "casting" time of "1". If they go to cast Fireball, for instance, you will always beat them to the draw and launch first. Cloudkill wands are my favorite as they too high a level for globes of invulnerability to stop. The effect is not directly cast at the mage so the spell reflecting/absorption defenses are bypassed. I will always get one fired off before they can cast anything. I follow with either a second or start taking down the defenses with Pierce Magic/Breach. Cloudkill should still harm them even if they are using Shadowdoor or Mislead if they are in the area of the effect.

Another tactic I like to use if the mage has companions is to have Jaheira cast insect plague on one of their "friends" that is close to mage. Since the spell is not directed at the mage it is again not reflected or absorbed. It spreads from the friend to the mage and they are are done for. I even used it once to nullify Shangalar in the Twisted Rune. I cast it on the rogue/fighter guy (can't recall the name) that comes out rather quickly. The plague spread to Shangalar and that stopped any spellcasting. Acid Fog with a cloudkill for good measure cast behind him (to keep the party out of it) slowly wore him down. After the clouds dispersed, his defenses had worn off and was easy to finish off.

[vonhizzle]

As philos stated, wands are your friend (you really learn this in BG1, they are so useful there). In particular, wand of spell striking allows you to cast breach on an enemy mage. The real useful thing about it is that you can target improved invisible characters with wands which is not possible in normal casting.

Scouting with a theif and opening the battle with a backstab to the enemy's mage can often eliminate the threat before it begins. Also traps can be used in a similar manner.

Elemental damage is a great tactic for the more common mages who don't use PFMW and the like.

Area effect spells cast before the mage gets its protections up by multiple casters is a brutally effective method.

However, my most common tactic is hit the mage/mages with a high level dispel magic (preferably from keldorn or another inquisitor). I believe this even works on liches (despite their immunity to 5th lvl and lower spells). Dispel/Remove magic should not be overlooked they are area effect so you can dispel improved invisibility and perform much higher than their level would suggest.

[Tricky]

I noticed a lot of my tactics actually revolve around drying a wizard out of spells, summoning things, shielding characters, keeping distance. Then I come in and quickly finish them up.

[kiwidoc]

Thanks for all these answers
I can handle mages who use improved invisibility; with dispell invisibility, true sight and wands followed by various spells to strip the magic from the mage (pierce, warding whip etc)

I still have problems with level 15+ mages. They use spells like mislead and sanctuary, or go ethereal. This means you can't target them with any of your own spells. Area effect spells tend to be relatively ineffective - they either have protection or they save vs spell.

Attacking the mage before they get their protections up is a very good idea. Higher level mages will have contingency and spell sequencers that take place almost immediately, but these protections are lower in level than the ones that take more time. A good backstab can do wonders, as can some seriously nasty missiles.

Playing mods is so much fun, but you do run across more difficult situations - where the mages are much higher in level or they come in groups. Like Tricky the only strategy I've found is to wait for the spells to wear off , and to use up their replacements while doing everything I can to stay alive.

[Philos]

Kiwidoc,

I don't know if any of the mods you use will alter this but "True Sight" should drop any illusion spells. Until you can cast 6th level spells though, it makes having Keldorn handy to have around. When you say "Sanctuary", do you mean the 1st level Clerical Spell? Or, are you referring to the 5th level Mage spell "Shadow Door" which work somewhat similarly?

You get access to 5th level spells moderately quickly in the game so I have my mage (PC or NPC) memorize multiple Breach spells. I like it because it will drop multiple defensive spells all at once. Pierce Magic (6th level) works well too but is more limited as it only takes the highest level spell. If the enemy mage is high level they often have Improved Mantle in a Sequencer as you mention. Pierce Magic will take it down.

Jeheira casting "Insect Plague" on one of the enemy (other than the mage) is a very effective method of taking out the mage. Fighter types usually have the worst saves versus spells, so I look at the enemy party, guess who is a fighter and Jeheira hits them with "Insect Plague". The very next round it spreads automatically to every other member of the enemy party. The mage cannot casts spells and thereby is neutralized. Most of the defensive spells will end long before the plague has finished. A Breach will speed that up. Should be easy pickings.

But scouting to me is the best defense against enemy mages. When your scout (hiding in shadows or with invisibility cast on them) spys the enemy party location simply move back just out of vision. Move your own spellcasters up to but not past your scout. Since most defenses are auto activated on sight they will not yet be up and running. Cast a barrage of area effect spells (or use wands) just in front of your enemy and the mage will likely fry and die rather quickly.

[kiwidoc]

Kiwidoc,

I don't know if any of the mods you use will alter this but "True Sight" should drop any illusion spells. Until you can cast 6th level spells though, it makes having Keldorn handy to have around. When you say "Sanctuary", do you mean the 1st level Clerical Spell? Or, are you referring to the 5th level Mage spell "Shadow Door" which work somewhat similarly?

your strategies for mid-level-ish mages are spot on

I'm puzzled about how True Sight affects really high level mages. I'm not exactly sure what spells they have actually cast, only the effects - i.e. they vanish or go transparent inside their various shields and globes; and/or a copy appears and starts to walk around. If they have vanished or gone transparent when I try to target them with a spell I get a message saying you can't cast spells on a target that is in sanctuary (or words to that effect)

I think that the copies could be from could be from mislead and/or simulcrum. In my experience wrt the copies True Sight lets the player see both the original and the copt of the mage, but you can't attack the original or cast spells on it. Only area spells have any effect, and most times the mage saves anyway.

Dissapearing mages could be using improved inivisibility if they are of a lower level. Otherwise they could be using shadow door or going ethereal. I've found the only thing I can do in this situation is to try and stay alive and wait for them to re-appear when their spells expire.

[Philos]

**Possible Spoilers**

Hmm,

It might help to know where you are encountering these mages. I have used those strategies, or vaiations of them depending on which encounter I am facing, on many of what I would call high level mages, i.e., they can cast Time Stop, Maze, Glyph of Fear, Gate, Wail of the Banshee which are all 9th level spells. Since they usually have multiple 9th level spells they use I would suspect them to be at least 19th level plus.
Some I have used them on:

Spoiler

Shangalar the Lich in the Twisted Rune and his mage assistant who likes to use Time Stop & Gate.
Vithal (the mage you can release from imprisonment while in the main cavern in the Underdark (Ch5) and can assist with his elemental plane quest. Tolgerias in the Planar Sphere is not the toughest mage but I think he uses Wail of the Banshee (his assistant is probably upper mid level)
The Lich in the secret room of the Crooked Crane tavern in the city gate district. I usually cook the other Liches with Daystar after that.
Can't recall what level the mage in Samia's party or Firkraag's mage assitant are in Windspear but used this on them as well.

Just read about another strategy I might try that looked like fun. Mustard Jelly's are 100% magic resistant. Using Polymorph Self (just a 4th level spell), you can turn into one. Have your polymorphed mage approach the high level mage and trigger the encounter. All the magic devastation heaped on your mage should go for nought. While your mage distracts them, wait out, or start taking down the enemy's defenses.

[kiwidoc]

Philos I just love your idea about the mustard jelly. not only does it sound like it would work, it appeals immensely to my somewhat warped sense of homour

The wizards I have had most trouble with are all flinging around eighth or ninth level spells. I've also had problems with a group of 3 wizards and a lich that seem to be using 7th level spells or lower - but they have all got very clever spell sequencers so they can vanish before you can cast spells at them. This is a group from the Edwin romance mod - and I may have been tackling them too soon.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

+1 on the cheers count, the tip on casting Insect Plague is great.

[kiwidoc]

Insect plague is also really great for fighting Faldorn. If you cast haste before starting the challenge you can fire the insects off before she casts her first spell, and this disrupts her spell casting.