Keldorn's alignment - Lawful Hypocrit
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Keldorn's alignment - Lawful Hypocrit
He doesn't mind too much working for thieves guild, but working for vampires is SO NOT ok and he leaves the party... So... theft is not that big problem for a supposedly LAWFUL character. I mean... really! He attacks Viconia merely for her being a drow, never for tangible reasons, while Korgan, who is much more evil imo and likes to express often how evil he is, is fine with him. I don't see the logic here.
Any thoughts?
P.S. Too bad that it would probably make him Fallen paladin or crash the game, but damn I'd like to see a mod displaying his alignment as you see it in the title! With Anomen, he is the most annoying character in the game.
Any thoughts?
P.S. Too bad that it would probably make him Fallen paladin or crash the game, but damn I'd like to see a mod displaying his alignment as you see it in the title! With Anomen, he is the most annoying character in the game.
Kad se šćaše po zemlji Warcrafta, po Warcrafta zemlji da prevrne,
I da druga nastanu vremena, udario elf na taurena!
Paladini nisu radi kavzi, nit warloci, te grdne sanđame,
No su radi undeadovi jadni, što demone trpeti ne mogu...
I da druga nastanu vremena, udario elf na taurena!
Paladini nisu radi kavzi, nit warloci, te grdne sanđame,
No su radi undeadovi jadni, što demone trpeti ne mogu...
You expect too much from BG2. It's not about logic or true roleplaying, it's about entertaining. BG2 is a mainstream point&click rts-crpg mix with many rpg features important for marketing which tried to be as successful as Diablo2 but failed.
So just be entertained and don't worry about the rest. If NPCs annoy you too much play solo, it's easier.
So just be entertained and don't worry about the rest. If NPCs annoy you too much play solo, it's easier.
Heh, yeah I remember Keldorn being mostly about duty and very narrow-minded. The opinion I formed of him was that he was a bit of a "lost" individual. Fortunately, without spoiling anything, his personal story involves helping him "find himself" so to speak.
I had no idea he left the party if you sided with the vampires though. That really sucks.
I had no idea he left the party if you sided with the vampires though. That really sucks.
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Well... he is a paladin after all.... It seems to me that it would be pretty out of character for him to not react negatively.Ruds wrote: I had no idea he left the party if you sided with the vampires though. That really sucks.
Spoiler
testingtest12
Spoiler
testingtest12
Well working with the thieves guild for a good cause wouldn't be too much of a stretch, although I'm not sure working to break a criminal (Imoen) out of prison really is a stretch. Working with Vampires would obviously be too much for most, if not all paladins, even if the cause was good.
His racist attitude towards Viconia is well out of order, as would be him tolerating any evil actions, or evil intent by Korgan, talk is cheap however, and hearsay isn't admissable in court.
That's as far as I go in playing devil's advocate, and one should always bear in mind that Paladins are as close to Nazi's in their outlook as they are to hippies!
His racist attitude towards Viconia is well out of order, as would be him tolerating any evil actions, or evil intent by Korgan, talk is cheap however, and hearsay isn't admissable in court.
That's as far as I go in playing devil's advocate, and one should always bear in mind that Paladins are as close to Nazi's in their outlook as they are to hippies!
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
Yes, characters any alignment can be hypocrites. Characters any alignment can be misguided and narrowminded. Characters of all alignments can be flawed. What exactly makes you think that Lawful Good characters are any different?
The alignment only determines the character's moral compass. How they apply it or follow through on it is another story.
And personally I never aligned with the vampires. If the motivations of Shadow Guild were potentially evil, the motivations of the vampires were definitely evil. And vampires themselves are abominations. The Shadow Guild consists of living persons at least.
I'm with Keldorn on this one. Aligning with creepy, pale-skinned, fanged, blood-drinking, coffin-dwelling undead creatures is too much for me personally. Does that make me a hypocrite also?
The alignment only determines the character's moral compass. How they apply it or follow through on it is another story.
And personally I never aligned with the vampires. If the motivations of Shadow Guild were potentially evil, the motivations of the vampires were definitely evil. And vampires themselves are abominations. The Shadow Guild consists of living persons at least.
I'm with Keldorn on this one. Aligning with creepy, pale-skinned, fanged, blood-drinking, coffin-dwelling undead creatures is too much for me personally. Does that make me a hypocrite also?
I confess to having a real soft spot for Kheldorn. He's a tired and battered man struggling to follow the tenets of the order he is sworn to, and finding the older he gets the less clear cut and black and white the world seems.
There are couple of very important point to bear in mind when looking at Kheldorn.
Firstly... when it says lawful good it doesn't mean law as in the law of the land, it means following a strong code. After all assassins can be lawful evil - they may break the law of the land all over the place but so long as they follow the code of their organisation their alignment is still lawful.
Secondly he will automatically be aware of the presence of serious evil - such as is found in a vampire, or a committed and enthusiastic worshipper of a chaotic evil deity. Being around them will actually cause a paladin pain as well as revulsion.
The order that Kheldorn belongs to considers thieves to be bad. However undead aren't just bad, they are an abomination. Ditto for evil drow - they are also an abomination. This isn't racism as we know it here on earth - it's a recognition of the absolute devotion to chaos and evilness seen in the overwhelming majority of Drow. It isn't the blackness of Viconia's skin thats the problem, it's the blackness of her heart. I bet if you got him chatting to a follower of Eilestrae (the only good Drow deity) you would see a totally different reaction. I would also suspect he would get on very well with Drizzt - they have a similar dry sense of humour
If you want to see Kheldorn at his best watch how he tries to be a mentor to Anomen, how he gently tries to steer him away from his arrogance and his single minded focus.
There are couple of very important point to bear in mind when looking at Kheldorn.
Firstly... when it says lawful good it doesn't mean law as in the law of the land, it means following a strong code. After all assassins can be lawful evil - they may break the law of the land all over the place but so long as they follow the code of their organisation their alignment is still lawful.
Secondly he will automatically be aware of the presence of serious evil - such as is found in a vampire, or a committed and enthusiastic worshipper of a chaotic evil deity. Being around them will actually cause a paladin pain as well as revulsion.
The order that Kheldorn belongs to considers thieves to be bad. However undead aren't just bad, they are an abomination. Ditto for evil drow - they are also an abomination. This isn't racism as we know it here on earth - it's a recognition of the absolute devotion to chaos and evilness seen in the overwhelming majority of Drow. It isn't the blackness of Viconia's skin thats the problem, it's the blackness of her heart. I bet if you got him chatting to a follower of Eilestrae (the only good Drow deity) you would see a totally different reaction. I would also suspect he would get on very well with Drizzt - they have a similar dry sense of humour
If you want to see Kheldorn at his best watch how he tries to be a mentor to Anomen, how he gently tries to steer him away from his arrogance and his single minded focus.
I agree with everything you say Kiwidoc except for this
, I'm afraid you're wrong, it is racism, is there any evil in her heart when she's with the protagonist? Nope, not that would give off an aura of evil anyway, and she is likely on the path to redemption by the time Keldorn turns up, but that doesn't matter to him, all that matters is that she's a Drow. That's racism no matter how you look at it.This isn't racism as we know it here on earth
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
Thanks Ruds - you made me blush
galraed - Hmmmm ... you're right - this is more complex than it looks since she is not a typical drow by any means. For starters she worships a human goddess not a member of the drow pantheon and that signals her willingess to step outside of the drow sulture and mind-set.
Kheldorn has been taught for decades that drow priestesses are evil incarnate, and that Shar is also one of the truly nasties. You'd expect him to be a bit biased about Viconia. On the plus side - he doesn't tie her back on the stake and relight the fires!
I suppose in our Earth terms this isn't really racism - it's specieism
galraed - Hmmmm ... you're right - this is more complex than it looks since she is not a typical drow by any means. For starters she worships a human goddess not a member of the drow pantheon and that signals her willingess to step outside of the drow sulture and mind-set.
Kheldorn has been taught for decades that drow priestesses are evil incarnate, and that Shar is also one of the truly nasties. You'd expect him to be a bit biased about Viconia. On the plus side - he doesn't tie her back on the stake and relight the fires!
I suppose in our Earth terms this isn't really racism - it's specieism
:laugh::laugh:On the plus side - he doesn't tie her back on the stake and relight the fires!
To be honest I've always (and by that I mean for over 20 years) considered Lawful Good to be the wrong alignment for Paladins, in my opinion they should be Neutral Good, nothing other than being good matters, law and personal liberty should just be distractions to them I think.
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
Viconia is truly evil. That she was a victim and that the developers featured an alignment change for her in ToB doesn't make her good in SoA.galraen wrote:I agree with everything you say Kiwidoc except for this , I'm afraid you're wrong, it is racism, is there any evil in her heart when she's with the protagonist? Nope, not that would give off an aura of evil anyway, and she is likely on the path to redemption by the time Keldorn turns up, but that doesn't matter to him, all that matters is that she's a Drow. That's racism no matter how you look at it.
Just look at what you learn about her during SoA, she's evil not only in a selfish way. She gives you heartless advice, gets annoyed or even leaves your party when you do good things, she executed her cruel revenge and worships a cruel deity which lets her controls undead abominations, with newer D&D rules she'd even be able to turn paladins.
It's not surprising that Keldorn attacks her, it's surprising that it takes so long.
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2 points here:
1:
And 2:
The question to ask yourself is, if a non-drow character were saying all the things Viconia says and had done all the things she had done, would Keldorn just grin and bear it or would he be going Carsomyr on their ***? I'm thinking he'd be Smiting Evil even if she weren't a Drow.
1:
The thing is though, Forgotten Realms settings aren't like the real world. There is such thing as real, definite good and evil, and there are such things as evil races if only as necessary gameplay mechanics. There are exceptions to be sure, and the game even plays on that convention on ocasion (i.e. the spectator beholder), but for the most part it's accepted that if your PC sees a goblin it's squishing time, regardless of whether it's a church-going mommy goblin struggling to support 2.5 kids and a mortgage on the damp dingy cave. Goblins are evil, so unless one explicitly begs for it's life on a narrow list of grounds (I'm a rare Good goblin, we're enslaved by/fighting against a greater evil, you need me alive to further a quest, etc) it's a target - that's just the way the game works. Of those evil races the Drow are pretty high up there, Drow priestesses especially. The whole reason Drizzt is such a big deal is because he is [url="http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html"]an exception to the rule[/url] (it sure isn't 'cos he's such a well-developed and well-written character). So while it is racist, racism isn't quite the same in Abeir-Toril as it is here.galraen wrote:I agree with everything you say Kiwidoc except for this , I'm afraid you're wrong, it is racism, is there any evil in her heart when she's with the protagonist? Nope, not that would give off an aura of evil anyway, and she is likely on the path to redemption by the time Keldorn turns up, but that doesn't matter to him, all that matters is that she's a Drow. That's racism no matter how you look at it.
And 2:
This - Viccy is without doubt an evil *****, probably the most evil joinable NPC in the game, it's just that she's the PCs evil ***** so the developers more or less had to put in some background aspects to make players sympathetic to her, especially as a romance option. IMO the developers got her and Korgan's alignments the wrong way around, Viccy (much as I like the character) is really more Chaotic Evil where Korgan is Neutral Evil. Almost every interjection she has confirms it, as does her alignment and race - if a Detect Evil got past her Magic Resistance she would show up as Evil, because she is evil (it says so right on her character record), and unapologetically so. Sure, she loved her brother and refused to kill a child (after countless sacrifices before it), but both of those are noteworthy for being out of character - a lot of the latter part of the romance is, after all, with her struggling with her having feelings of a non-malevolent nature towards the PC.kmonster wrote:Viconia is truly evil. That she was a victim and that the developers featured an alignment change for her in ToB doesn't make her good in SoA.
Just look at what you learn about her during SoA, she's evil not only in a selfish way. She gives you heartless advice, gets annoyed or even leaves your party when you do good things, she executed her cruel revenge and worships a cruel deity which lets her controls undead abominations, with newer D&D rules she'd even be able to turn paladins.
It's not surprising that Keldorn attacks her, it's surprising that it takes so long.
The question to ask yourself is, if a non-drow character were saying all the things Viconia says and had done all the things she had done, would Keldorn just grin and bear it or would he be going Carsomyr on their ***? I'm thinking he'd be Smiting Evil even if she weren't a Drow.
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I think it makes sense for them to be lawful good, so long as you understand that in D&D law doesn't mean the law of the land, it means the code laid down by your God and/or your organisation. In many cases this will actually override the law of the land.galraen wrote: To be honest I've always (and by that I mean for over 20 years) considered Lawful Good to be the wrong alignment for Paladins, in my opinion they should be Neutral Good, nothing other than being good matters, law and personal liberty should just be distractions to them I think.
I think D&D does this quite a bit - picks a term commonly used in the English language, and then uses it as a label for something very specific thing and also rather different to the "Earth" meaning. A prime example is the word race. In D&D it doesn't mean an ethnic grouping, it means an actual different species!
So a worshipper of Lolth who obeys her commands is really lawful? An extreme example, but that's where that logic leads to.kiwidoc wrote:law doesn't mean the law of the land, it means the code laid down by your God and/or your organisation
Sorry but lawful means just that, obedience to the law; sure when the law of the land contradicts the law of the religion there is a conflict, but a lawful good character should obey the law of the land in all cases where it doesn't conflict with religious dictates.
So, in the game Keldorn really shouldn't do anything to aid the party to break Imoen out of prison unless there's clear evidence that there is a miscarriage of justice. Of course once the party gets to Imoen then everything becomes easy for him, but should he be with the party at that point? Very debatable if he really is Lawful.
In my view a Paladin should never let law over ride good, so therefore shouldn't be Lawful Good and therefore Keldorn would be within his right to help Imoen. Incarcerating someone without trial may be lawful in Athkatla, but hardly 'good'.
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
Lolth is a chaotic evil goddess - who finds great joy in chaos and detests predictability and order. Of course someone who follows her will is chaotic!
On the other hand prior to the time of troubles there were many assassins, cerics and magic users who belonged to guilds or organisations dedicated to Bane. Bane is a lawful evil god, so he would have expected these worshippers to obey the rules of their guilds, and to respect the heirachies. However he did not expect them to obey the laws of the land - I mean how in the hell could an assassin obey the law of the land
There's a great quote in [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29"]Wikipedia's summary of D&D alignments[/url].
Confusingly, a lawful alignment does not necessarily mean that a character obeys a region's laws, nor does a chaotic alignment necessarily mean that a character disobeys a region's laws.
(My old 3rd ed books are buried too deep for me to find a direct quote from them)
On the other hand prior to the time of troubles there were many assassins, cerics and magic users who belonged to guilds or organisations dedicated to Bane. Bane is a lawful evil god, so he would have expected these worshippers to obey the rules of their guilds, and to respect the heirachies. However he did not expect them to obey the laws of the land - I mean how in the hell could an assassin obey the law of the land
There's a great quote in [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29"]Wikipedia's summary of D&D alignments[/url].
Confusingly, a lawful alignment does not necessarily mean that a character obeys a region's laws, nor does a chaotic alignment necessarily mean that a character disobeys a region's laws.
(My old 3rd ed books are buried too deep for me to find a direct quote from them)
- Siouxie Sioux
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Thanks, good observation, extends my views I must say. I guess a strong character for a party (and Keldorn is the best paladin once he gets gauntlets of DEX) should have a strong personality as well.doady wrote:Yes, characters any alignment can be hypocrites. Characters any alignment can be misguided and narrowminded. Characters of all alignments can be flawed. What exactly makes you think that Lawful Good characters are any different?
The alignment only determines the character's moral compass. How they apply it or follow through on it is another story.
Well, haha, dont get it personally, man, I can understand you actually, I played BG very long with good parties (I just COULDNT give my PC other than Neutral/Chaotic good - I never liked Lawful good) but later it bored me, and I said Well, let's experience how the game looks like with real roleplay - evil choices that I wouln't pick normally.doady wrote:I'm with Keldorn on this one. Aligning with creepy, pale-skinned, fanged, blood-drinking, coffin-dwelling undead creatures is too much for me personally. Does that make me a hypocrite also?
---
No wonder you got me so seriously lol I was so pissed off when I opened the topic - I invested so much xp in him and he just leaves!!! aaaa!!! - Oh well... I started another game with Valen in my party.kmonster wrote:So just be entertained and don't worry about the rest. If NPCs annoy you too much play solo, it's easier.
Thank you all for interesting responses!
Kad se šćaše po zemlji Warcrafta, po Warcrafta zemlji da prevrne,
I da druga nastanu vremena, udario elf na taurena!
Paladini nisu radi kavzi, nit warloci, te grdne sanđame,
No su radi undeadovi jadni, što demone trpeti ne mogu...
I da druga nastanu vremena, udario elf na taurena!
Paladini nisu radi kavzi, nit warloci, te grdne sanđame,
No su radi undeadovi jadni, što demone trpeti ne mogu...
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Paladins, I never liked their Lawful Good alignment because it really isn't true. They're zealots and those who blindly follow a faith or what they consider to be true, their truth, are not what I would call good. Maybe Lawful Neutral. Is someone that would kill a drow on sight good? Just because the majority of them are evil doesn't make them all evil. That drow could be a follower of Eilistraee or it could have been raised on the surface in a good home and never associated with its evil kin. What is seen in the game and some D&D books, paladins are arrogant, closed minded, racist individuals. They may have good intentions but to smite out something they perceived as evil without knowing the facts doesn't make it right or good.
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I think that when we judge paladins in D&D, we tend to associate them with religious fanatics of our world, since both follow more or less "blindly" what they consider to be the word of their god.
But bear in mind that the deities of D&D exist in a true, material and unmistakeable way, which is quite different from our real-life religions. When catholic fanatics kill a doctor who was performing abortions, they think they are acting in a way that their god wishes them to act, but really they are following some human or other who claims to interpret the word of god.
But D&D deities can speak to any of their followers if they choose to, they grant them divine magic and so on - we should not forget that, should a follower commit an act that is wrong in the eyes of their god, the divine magic is taken away - so it's much more logical, in my oppinion, for the D&D zealots to be as devoted as they are than it is for us.
What I think D&D lacks, are the evil paladins. If a paladin is a knight in service of a god, then he is a paladin regardless of the god. Those who serve good deities would be good, those who serve evil ones should be evil.
But bear in mind that the deities of D&D exist in a true, material and unmistakeable way, which is quite different from our real-life religions. When catholic fanatics kill a doctor who was performing abortions, they think they are acting in a way that their god wishes them to act, but really they are following some human or other who claims to interpret the word of god.
But D&D deities can speak to any of their followers if they choose to, they grant them divine magic and so on - we should not forget that, should a follower commit an act that is wrong in the eyes of their god, the divine magic is taken away - so it's much more logical, in my oppinion, for the D&D zealots to be as devoted as they are than it is for us.
What I think D&D lacks, are the evil paladins. If a paladin is a knight in service of a god, then he is a paladin regardless of the god. Those who serve good deities would be good, those who serve evil ones should be evil.
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Very, very true QuenGalad! You better believe that a paladin has a very real and material bond with both their god, and their order. If they do something thats either very evil, or way out of line with the code of living set down by their deity they stop being paladins. This isn't some kind of theoretical, internal mystical thing - their powers will vanish, their deity will stop talking to them and answering their prayers for divine magic. They will have to carry on life with no special powers or magic granted to them, and I thin this includes a loss of fighting skills - or they choose another deity (an evil one this time) and another set of rules and become a fallen paladin or antipaladin. Either way, even if they try to kid themselves, they will KNOW what's happened to them.
Also Paladins follow good gods and goddesses - and these deities don't ask their followers to do evil things. Maybe a few grey things here and there (such as removing a child from an extremely evil family against the parents wishes) but nothing outright nasty and evil. They don't approve of fireballing or slaughtering whole congregations of other gods and goddesses, they disapprove of torture, and even frown on deception in a good cause (no white lies for a paladin!) So they don't do the horrendous things we associate with many religious zealots in our world.
The example of them attacking drow is not as simple as it seems at first glance. Drow are elves, and are very magical. Followers of the evil Drow deities (like Lloth) tend to be extremely chaotic, selfish, aggressive and outright nasty. They will radiate this very strongly, and they will also be driven to attack anyone radiating goodness and anti-chaos ... so yes, violence is pretty much inevitable. However as fas as I know paladins don't attack followers of Eilestrae at all, let alone slicing and dicing them on sight.
Also Paladins follow good gods and goddesses - and these deities don't ask their followers to do evil things. Maybe a few grey things here and there (such as removing a child from an extremely evil family against the parents wishes) but nothing outright nasty and evil. They don't approve of fireballing or slaughtering whole congregations of other gods and goddesses, they disapprove of torture, and even frown on deception in a good cause (no white lies for a paladin!) So they don't do the horrendous things we associate with many religious zealots in our world.
The example of them attacking drow is not as simple as it seems at first glance. Drow are elves, and are very magical. Followers of the evil Drow deities (like Lloth) tend to be extremely chaotic, selfish, aggressive and outright nasty. They will radiate this very strongly, and they will also be driven to attack anyone radiating goodness and anti-chaos ... so yes, violence is pretty much inevitable. However as fas as I know paladins don't attack followers of Eilestrae at all, let alone slicing and dicing them on sight.