Final Fantasy?

Moot · Post by **Moot** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:56 pm

Just thought I would point out that I did use the search feature and didn't find anything definite pertaining to my question. Also, my apologies if this is a stupid question.

I was able to search several Final Fantasy games in the "RPG Search". I have seen people talking about several Final Fantasy games across these forums. Yet...my question is this:

In the "PC and Console RPGs" forum, why is there no section on the Final Fantasy series?

They are RPGs, they are both old and new, and they're very popular. (Also they're some of my favorite games, which is what brings me to ask about them, considering there are many things about all of the games to discuss!)

Once again, forgive me if this is an obvious question or has been addressed before.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:33 am

I think asian RPGs and western RPGs just aren't perceived as the same genre. Not in particular by most folk here, and not in particular by the site owner.

DesR85 · Post by **DesR85** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:46 am

I did play some of the Final Fantasy games before and other JRPGs, but I don't think they're popular among the crowd here.

jklinders · Post by **jklinders** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:44 am

It's not just final fantasy. I don't believe there are any JRPGs on this site features. As tricky mentioned I do not believe the site owner is hugely interested in featuring content on JRPGs.

Personally I'm neutral on the subject, but have no trouble playing either.

Moot · Post by **Moot** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:25 am

I suppose I can't argue against the site owner's preference.

Thanks for the replies, as always.

Siberys · Post by **Siberys** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:08 am

They are RPGs

Actually...this is not true. Despite their official classification, I would argue that they are not at all RPG's and do not even come close to being a roleplaying game.

They are as much a roleplaying game as Zelda or Metroid is a roleplaying game in that you simply play the role of someone else.

In most of the games, there's very little customization. New weapons and armor sure but overall your character remains on a fixed progression. You also don't have any choice where the story actually goes, save for FF11. You do not define your charater(s) like in a traditional RPG.

Sorry but to me, no final fantasy game is an RPG save for FF11, and that's barely one at that.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:17 am

Actually...this is not true. Despite their official classification, I would argue that they are not at all RPG's and do not even come close to being a roleplaying game.

I would argue that going by Western definitions they are not precisely RPGs, and they might be closer in some ways to the adventure genre. However, they are JRPGs.

Siberys · Post by **Siberys** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:36 am

Except the only difference between the name RPG and JRPG is the J which stands for Japanese. It doesn't actually affect the genre of the game, just the location of where it comes from.

It's commonly used as a separate genre which makes no sense to me, but basically to me the only difference is where it originates.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:43 pm

To be honest about it, especially given all the blurring between genres that has occurred, I'm not one to generally argue which category a game fits into. For me it's a question of:
"Does this game meet my personal definition of quality? Is it engaging? Does it require some intelligence to play? Does it have a well developed story and do the NPCs have actual personalities? Does it have depth and complexity? Is it relatively bug free?" And, though I put less of a focus on these factors: "Is the combat challenging/fun? Do the music and graphics compliment the game and add to its immersion?"

To address JRPGs though, I see them as a variant of RPGs. They have been shaped by the culture in which they've developed. Do they fit our western ideas of an RPG? No, probably not. But, they are still a form of RPG nonetheless. What exactly gives us the right to dictate if another culture's version of a game genre is the correct one?

Have you ever been to Japan Siberys?

I spent a year living and working there; in my view JRPGs are quite reflective of Japan itself. I think you need to allow for the obvious cultural differences between JRPGs and Western RPGs.

That's just my opinion though.

Siberys · Post by **Siberys** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:54 pm

"Does this game meet my personal definition of quality? Is it engaging? Does it require some intelligence to play? Does it have a well developed story and do the NPCs have actual personalities? Does it have depth and complexity? Is it relatively bug free?" And, though I put less of a focus on these factors: "Is the combat challenging/fun? Do the music and graphics compliment the game and add to its immersion?"

I agree entirely. I'm not saying Final Fantasy isn't a good game, I love 4, 5, 6, 9 and 12 and am okay with 13 and 7. And I do like the "genre" and the associated games like Star Ocean, Last Remnant, Lost Odyssey, etc.

To address JRPGs though, I see them as a variant of RPGs. They have been shaped by the culture in which they've developed. Do they fit our western ideas of an RPG? No, probably not. But, they are still a form of RPG nonetheless.

I don't think it's a matter of a "Western" idea so much as a semantics one. The core semantics of Roleplaying game implies that if you play the role of something, it's an RPG, and we all know this simply isn't true (or otherwise Super Mario Bros for the NES would have been an RPG).

So to give it a sort of definition, people tried to use the leveling and EXP system as a form of being an "RPG" in that your characters get stronger and develop new abilities along the way. Again, this can't make it an RPG because in Zelda or Metroid, you can get stronger with more health bars and get more abilities with your magic weapons/guns.

So personally I believe an RPG must be not only a role you can play but shape. Final Fantasy 5 is a loose example of that considering the job system (and indeed other FF games with job systems I haven't gotten around to playing) but a game like final fantasy 9 where all your abilities will always be the same no matter how you play through and you will never gain anything new, that just makes it more like an action-adventure game.

Have you ever been to Japan Siberys?

Once, for a weekend.

Now...I can see the cultural difference between our action adventure games and there's, but for me I cannot will myself to call many of the final fantasy games actual RPG's, regardless of where the term originates and what it means to Japan.

The less option, choice, and freedom you have, the less of an RPG it is; and a LOT of final fantasy games have virtually no options, choices, or freedoms.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Fri Aug 13, 2010 6:50 pm

Gotta disagree. I've been replaying BG2 again lately and it's really brought home how little influence over the storyline you have. Dialogue choices usually come down to "Yes I'll do the quest righteous honor blah blah", "I'll do it for money", "I'm evil and will do it for money" or "No I won't do it" in which case the story or subplot doesn't advance. You can skip on sidequests sure, but there are quite a few JRPGs where you can do that too, and you can't alter the storyline in any significant way in BG2, or NWN - you can't join Morag (it was Morag right?), Aribeth will always become a traitor, etc etc. When you get right down to it there isn't that much in the way of character customisation in BG/BG2(Seiken Densetsu 3 had at least as many options for classes), and in games like Chrono Trigger or Seiken Densetsu 2 your characters do play definite roles, i.e. Marle from Chrono is very much 'the healer', Lucca is 'the Wizard', etc etc.

Morrowind (which I haven't played through much) is different, but if we're including the BG series (much as I love some of the older ones despite their limitations) then a number of JRPGs are as much RPGs as them. I'd also point out we have a section for Diablo and Diablo 2, and those aren't really RPGs in the traditional sense either, more like hack 'n slash with customisable characters.

No disputing Zelda's not-RPG-ness, but Zelda is really action/adventure (great game though). Same for Metroid, albeit with a sci-fi theme.

None of this is to say that Buck should instigate a Chrono Trigger section - it is a site for Western RPGs - but JRPGs (usually) do meet the criteria for RPGs shown by other games we do have up here.

Moot · Post by **Moot** » Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:03 pm

None of this is to say that Buck should instigate a Chrono Trigger section - it is a site for Western RPGs - but JRPGs (usually) do meet the criteria for RPGs shown by other games we do have up here.

The only reason I brought up Final Fantasy is that most of the Final Fantasy games-- or at least, all of the "numbered" ones-- are considered RPGs. It's not just one game (though I suppose having a large numbers of games to discuss in one section could be a bad thing).
Also, it looks like...every single Final Fantasy game is in this site's RPG database. Which is why I was confused as to why there wasn't actually a section devoted to Final Fantasy.

But considering it's the site owner's preference and that it's a site for Western RPG's, I'll withdraw my arguments.

doady · Post by **doady** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:18 am

I don't think there is that big a difference between western CRPGs and JRPGs. Both western and Japanese RPGs are quite diverse, no?

RPGs = freedom? Not sure I agree with that. Otherwise one might argue that SimCity 4 and Super Metroid are more true RPGs than Icewind Dale. It doesn't seem quite right.

I love freedom in RPGs. Don't think it defines RPGs. I think it would be crazy for anyone to say Icewind Dale is not an RPG...

Anyways, weren't the earliest JRPGs heavily influenced by the original Wizardry? The Wizardry series to this day is still more popular in Japan than in the West, and Wizardry-style games are still popular in Japan and are still being made there.

I don't think there is a huge gap here. That said, I tend to prefer western computer RPGs far more than Japanese console RPGs. And I certainly don't like the Final Fantasy games much. But I wouldn't mind a Final Fantasy section. There should be Might & Magic and Wizardry sections too.

I am the Doctor · Post by **I am the Doctor** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:21 am

If were going to debate if JRPGs are RPGs. We better find good guidelines of what is an RPG.

Heck also note there are more than one type of RPG. We have the European RPG, Western RPG (USA & Canada), and Japanese RPG.

In my own opinion, JRPGs are RPG because you are plaing a role, a good story, and customization of your character(s).

A good example is Chrono Trigger.

Siberys said "You also don't have any choice where the story actually goes, save for FF11." As his claim of why JRPG is not an RPG. Well in Chrono Trigger what you do in the game does affect the outcome of the end.

Also a debate like this is like debating what band is considered metal or not. Heck a Cappella band is listed as Metal.

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doady · Post by **doady** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:22 pm

I am the Doctor wrote:In my own opinion, JRPGs are RPG because you are plaing a role, a good story, and customization of your character(s).

I think JRPGs tend to have stronger story and characters than western RPGs.

Western RPGs with their open-ended-ness conflicts with plotting. You look at M&MVI it hardly has any plot at all, but this allows the game to be extremely open-ended.

And of course, the customizability of characters in many western RPGs can make them weaker, less personable.

JRPGs are more driven by strong plotting and characters and WRPGs more focused on exploration and customization.

They are all important to RPG genre I think. JRPGs aren't totally devoid of choices and WRPGs aren't totally devoid of story and character. There is a lot of overlap here.