Most useless character

[Siouxie Sioux]

Can't say I agree with you regarding Ano VS Viccy. Much as I like Viconia's character, I often find Anomen to be the more versatile NPC. Sure, you can equip Viconia with a strength girdle but she still has the Constitution, THACO and weapon specs of a cleric, not a fighter. Anomen on the other hand, annoying though he tends to be, can blow undead into tiny pieces, smash just about anything into tiny pieces, and he's a pretty decent healer once he passes his test.

They all have pros and cons, truly her proficiencies arent that great but my reason for preferring Viconia - great Dex, and the greatest magic resistance with no items, and later with items... she can really save the day with high-level magic users. I dont expect her to be a fighter. I was speaking of her as a cleric. Plus turning undead to fight for you is more useful than blowing them up.

It's really about personal preference though

Well, that's the beauty.

[koz-ivan]

of all the npc's there seems to be 3 of them that i have a hard time fitting into any of my groups.

Minsc:
the good - vampire enemy, good mix of weapons 2hd sword, mace, long bow, dual wield. can use most equipment, heavy armor or lighter and maintain his scout / stealth capability. minor spells too. lots of personality is "fun". shows up about 30 ft away from the pc.

the bad - slightly under powered compared to korgan, keldorn, saravok, lacks valygar's backstab. also tends to make bad situations worse when arie in involved and goes into blind rage. who needs confusion when minsc is around?

verdict - not completely useless. put more politely he's versatile.

Mazzy:
the good - good fighter stats, a few paladin perks (though none of the 2 handed variety) good shortbow archer, 5 stars in short swords.

the bad - who is using short swords? even with improved (ie regular) gm the short sword is pretty gimpy when compared to many of the bg2 / tob weapons. All of her damage is of the "piercing" type, this makes her useless against some enemies in her default configuration. and despite the favorable ftr xp table it can take her awhile to pick up alternate weapons and a weapon style. yes she can be machine gun kelly w/ the tugian bow, still i want and expect more from a warrior. in combat i'd rather have tanks up front vs in the back next to the mage. shows up later in chapter 3 making it a longer road to adjust her weapons as she levels.

verdict - kinda useless.

and the big c, Cernd.

the good: i really like his storyline as a short term npc, the pc meets him when he is in a rough place, helps him get his life in order and then leaves cernd so both can then focus on their other responsibilities. he can develop into a very good summoner and does have some handy druid spells. shapeshifting into a werewolf is kinda cool.

the bad: see storyline above, if cernd does stay with the group it shows how little he has really learned, his family and the grove have far more pressing need for him yet he too quickly abandons them to follow the pc.

he can't cast when in wolf form, makes him a complicated use in combat, (there was some other great post from years ago that described cernd as being one move behind in chess) he can waste alot of time switching forms and not doing what you would just want him to do.

plus the weakest of all the healers, lacks jaheria's harper's call to raise dead and the cleric restorations.

verdict: most useless.

[galraen]

If you don't mind using Shadow Keeper Mazzy can be a very good tank for a goody two shoes party. Get rid of the bow and short sword slots and replace them with Axe and Flails and give her a girdle and she can match anyone but Korgan. I like her as she is personally, but I always pick her up early before she's spent slots on shortswords, you don't have to leave her until late in chapter 3. Mostly I like the dialogue options, especially with Valleygirl and Korgan.

Agree wholeheartedly with Minsc, I hate the psycho scumbag, and Cernd is a no brainer, partly because he has no brain, or personality or useful abilities.

[koz-ivan]

If you don't mind using Shadow Keeper Mazzy can be a very good tank for a goody two shoes party. Get rid of the bow and short sword slots and replace them with Axe and Flails and give her a girdle and she can match anyone but Korgan.

in there somewhere is an interesting debate about if you have to sk an npc are they really useful? if cernd were a kensai-mage nobody would be complaining about his personality. :laugh:

but i digress.

agree that an axe & flail mazzy would be something to see, (she may not even need axes, foa + kundane or defender easthaven is still pretty decent) but imho she would still lag behind the other warrior class npc's & even haer'dalis (in some situations) she just can't bring enough to the table so to speak.

keldorn is just as capable with axe & flail (oddly enough that is how i developed him in my last tob run) and he has instant ts and 2x dispel.

the real test of my loyalty to her comes right after that start of tob, and she always comes up short there.

I like her as she is personally, but I always pick her up early before she's spent slots on shortswords, you don't have to leave her until late in chapter 3. Mostly I like the dialogue options, especially with Valleygirl and Korgan.

i can agree with all of this.

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one last shovelful of dirt to throw on cernd, a 6 person party needs to earn 9 million xp for him to level up from 14. yikes.

[galraen]

in there somewhere is an interesting debate about if you have to sk an npc are they really useful? if cernd were a kensai-mage nobody would be complaining about his personality.

Excellent point, game set and match right there!

However, although Mazzy certainly isn't anywhere near being the most powerful NPC, I really don't see how the loveable midget belongs in a discussion about the most useless. It's the ranger in me, gotta protect the Hobbits!

[moltovir]

any good idea's on SKing Cernd? My evil party needs a 2nd divine spellcaster..

[galraen]

Firstly a Spoiler (highlight to read)

Spoiler

You do realise Anomen can be turned to Chaotic Neutral don't you? He never gets good wisdom, but that doesn't matter in this game.

End of Spoiler.

I'd suggest turning him into an Avenger

To do this open SK and change his kit, also reduce his XP to zero (make a note of what his xp was), his hit points to 1 and remove his special bilities. Load the game and level him to level 1, then save and load SK again; give back the xp you noted earlier.

The reason for reducing the XP to zero is if you don't his new abilities etc will not be allocated correctly.

Alternatively you could download Branwen, you'd have to use the console to get her into the game, and she doesn't have any quests or interactive dialogue though.

If you want a silent companion you could also use the console (Ctrl+Q if I recall correctly) to kidnap a normally non playable NPC and set them up with Shadow Keeper; this can be problematic if you choose the wrong one though.

[Berethor]

Nalia is the least useful character for me, and it's not close. Whiny, ignorant and weak until late-game does not make for a good combination in my books. I'd much rather have Jan or Imoen as my resident mage.

After that, I'd go with Mazzy as my second choice and Haer'Dalis as my third.

[galraen]

Nalia is the least useful character for me, and it's not close. Whiny, ignorant and weak until late-game does not make for a good combination in my books. I'd much rather have Jan or Imoen as my resident mage.

I can understand not liking her, for the reasons you gave, one more 'For the needy' and I think I'd kill her, but useless? By the time you reach Imoen it;s Imoen that's the weaker mage of the two! Jan is a great character, but again for raw power Nalia is superior. Dislike her fine, but we're talking about most useless, not most nauseating.

[Berethor]

I can understand not liking her, for the reasons you gave, one more 'For the needy' and I think I'd kill her, but useless? By the time you reach Imoen it;s Imoen that's the weaker mage of the two! Jan is a great character, but again for raw power Nalia is superior. Dislike her fine, but we're talking about most useless, not most nauseating.

There's one important thing about me that makes her the least useful character. When I assemble my parties, I generally have the mage character I choose also substitute as my thief-type for opening locks and disarming traps.

Jan does that just fine (without items too) for most of the game, but since Nalia dual-classed at such a ridiculously low level (4 was it?) her thief skills are pretty terrible. So while she may be a marginally better mage, I find her less useful because her utility is a step below Jan and Imoen. The latter dual-classed at a later level and her thief skills are good enough to deal with most obstacles in the game because of it. I'll take that utility over an extra spell or two any day.

Also, Edwin is a better mage so if I really wanted a pure caster I'd pick him up instead. Nalia has no niche in my party at all, even less so with her awful personality.

[galraen]

If I may digress somewhat; Nalia is probably the worst written character in the game, whichever idiot came up with her war cries really should be taken out and shot, the rest of her diaogue is pretty bad too. The 'what are we doing to elp the unfortunate trudging around down here' as you valiantly try to rid her home of Trolls is particularly stupid.The fact that the girl is a genius never comes across at all (same is true for Imoen to some extent too); her wisdom is bit below average, so some naivity is reasonable, but not complete idiocy! The dual classing of her at a ridiculous level was a transparent, and rather pathetic ploy to make the player prefer Imoen, even though Imoen was originally supposed to be bumped off in the Asylum and she's not all that as a thief anyway as she was also badly dual classed.

So really to get satisfaction from either of them requires a trip to Shadow Keeper, or continual messing about with items and potions, but as has been pointed out that (using SK) is cheating indeed in this context. The fact that you need items and potions for either of them to be adequate thieves means that the inferior spell caster has to be closest to uselessness, and it's not just a couple of spells either but at least one spell level. The highest level that Imoewimp can be when you find her is 12th, by that time unless you've been neglecting her, Nalia should be 14th at least. On one occasion when I took her she was actually 15ht heding fast to 16th, but I had cleared out every available quest prior to going to the Asylum. The other time when I took a faster route Nalia was 12th and Imoen was only 8th when I picked her up (and dropped her immediately), that probably was abnormal though. Best choice for a mage/thief is obviously Jan, but if you only have one mage in the party and you're a good party, then Nalia makes much more sense. But oh that terribly written personality! So, yep I usually go with Jan, Aerie or Tashia depending on my PC. Even with an evil party I don't take Edwin, I find his personality even worse than Nalias. Any evil character I have kills him very quickly, and of course any good character almost certainly already killed him in Nashkel!!

[koz-ivan]

If I may digress somewhat; Nalia is probably the worst written character in the game,

her battle cries are a bit uninspiring. her interactions are pretty decent though as she comes to grips with the difference between manor living and life on the road.

and she's not all that as a thief anyway as she was also badly dual classed.

as a thief she is "enough" or "passable" the nice thing about her thief levels is that they do allow her some variety aside from the basic mage stuff.

So really to get satisfaction from either of them requires a trip to Shadow Keeper, or continual messing about with items and potions, but as has been pointed out that (using SK) is cheating indeed in this context. The fact that you need items and potions for either of them to be adequate thieves

nah. immy is just fine as the primary thief in the party. i've never tried to rely on nalia alone in the later chapters, but i guess she would need to be messing about with equipment.

The highest level that Imoewimp can be when you find her is 12th, by that time unless you've been neglecting her, Nalia should be 14th at least. On one occasion when I took her she was actually 15ht heding fast to 16th, but I had cleared out every available quest prior to going to the Asylum. The other time when I took a faster route Nalia was 12th and Imoen was only 8th when I picked her up (and dropped her immediately), that probably was abnormal though.

luckily i had a save right before the reunion, main was a wildmage @ 13, nalia was 12th and immy was 11th. (not that big a difference really).

Best choice for a mage/thief is obviously Jan,

why?

yeah he is the best trap & lock thief in the game, but there isn't much he can do that immy can't *and* even if he does have a decent headstart in levels, both nalia & immy will rapidly exceed his magery. plus he's locked out of necro spells. as point of contrast in the above party, aerie was still @ 10'th level mage when immy was rescued. had jan been in the party he'd of been similar level

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nalia (and / or) immy are both capable of being the primary mage in a they even work fairly well in concert (for fairly mage centric parties)

[Crenshinibon]

In my opinion, Jan is the strongest NPC in the game and heavily outclasses both, Imoen and Nalia, mostly due to the fact that he's a multiclass character, with both classes growing alongside each other.

Yes, while both Nalia and Imoen will outlevel him as a mage, it doesn't really matter, as the only difference will be that they will have more spells per day available. Jan, being able to level past twenty, will still be able to cast his spells at full strength and use his thief-class high level abilities, such as Magic Flute, Time Trap, Use Any Item and Assassination.

This, along with his thieving skills (Stealth, Open Lock, Detect Illusion, Set Trap) gives him a huge edge over the girls.

Also, not being able to cast Necromancy spells really isn't that bad. Your clerics can supplement them anyway. Even if you choose not to have any in your party, Jan will be fine with his other spells, especially those from the Transmutation school.

[koz-ivan]

In my opinion, Jan is the strongest NPC in the game and heavily outclasses both, Imoen and Nalia, mostly due to the fact that he's a multiclass character, with both classes growing alongside each other.

i like jan a lot, but i'm not seeing "strongest npc" out of him, in some ways perhaps similar to haerdalis, where the micro managing (and even some exploits) will then manifest as power? as far as this thread is concerned he's clearly a good npc and definitely not useless.

Yes, while both Nalia and Imoen will outlevel him as a mage, it doesn't really matter, as the only difference will be that they will have more spells per day available.

isn't that the whole point of magery? (and edwin's only claim to fame)

Jan, being able to level past twenty, will still be able to cast his spells at full strength and use his thief-class high level abilities, such as Magic Flute, Time Trap, Use Any Item and Assassination.

i'm wondering what goodness you have had him up to w/ UAI? UAI is certainly a game changer in some thief builds, but always seemed more of a novelty with jan.

This, along with his thieving skills (Stealth, Open Lock, Detect Illusion, Set Trap) gives him a huge edge over the girls.

stealth is a clear win for jan, though mages can get free invisibility from the staff.

open lock - this is really a push w/ imoen, their just isn't that many locks where you need jan over immy.

detect illusion - nice ability, however with keldorn around it isn't really required.

set trap - clear win for jan, of all the "stock" npcs only jan or haerdalis get the hla traps, and jan / yoshimo are the only two that can be any good at the regular ones.

Also, not being able to cast Necromancy spells really isn't that bad. Your clerics can supplement them anyway. Even if you choose not to have any in your party, Jan will be fine with his other spells, especially those from the Transmutation school.

the question of using jan does depend more on who else is in the party, i'd never use him as my only or even primary mage, but as a supporting mage, sure. that being said - a lot will depend on play style here, for 8th level spells i've always been a fan of the wilting and 9th is wail of the banshee both spells jan just can't do, and even if he could he might not get to do them as often. the clerics can't fill in there either.

[galraen]

nalia (and / or) immy are both capable of being the primary mage in a they even work fairly well in concert (for fairly mage centric parties)

I agree completely, and the fact that I can quote Nalia's dialogue from memory, having not played the game for some time, indicate two things:

1. I've played the game a hell of a lot despite it's numerous, and at times infuriating, faults.

2. I've played with Nalia as a prime NPC on a lot of them, again, in spite of her numerous, and at times infuriating, faults!

Crenshinibon covers the advantages of having Jan nicely, no need to repeat them.

[Berethor]

In my opinion, Jan is the strongest NPC in the game

I dunno, Aerie becomes pretty powerful. I hate her personality almost as much as Nalia's, but she becomes a ridiculously strong spell-slinging witch once ToB rolls around.

[Crenshinibon]

In my opinion, micromanaging is part of knowing how to use the character well. I call Jan the strongest because he has all of the benefits of being a mage, with the bonuses that come with being a thief. As such, Jan can do more than a caster, which is important since the most powerful NPCs would be arcane casters. I'd say that Aerie would be the second most powerful. In my opinnion, Jan has more utility, and can access a good amount of clerical spells through his Planetar.

I don't count exploits when determining the strength of a character. Only how powerful they would be against each other as well as the rest of the game, solo.

No, it's not. The point of magery is to cast spells to accomplish your goal and aid your journey. As such, Jan has enough for that, especially once he gets items that can make him physically sturdy.

I would use UAI to equip class or NPC specific equipment such as the Scarlet Ninja-To +3, Purifier +5, Staff of the High Forest, Staff of Thunder and Lightning and of course the Defender of Easthaven. Mainly any piece of equipment which gives you important bonuses, resistances, immunities or adds extra spells to your arsenal.

While mages can get invisibility from the Staff of the Magi, the can't backstab or evade the effects of True Sight.

Open lock is more of a perk. I usually use knock for hard to open locks anyway.

But, unlike Keldorn's ability it has limitless uses and can be used while silenced. Also, Keldorn can't really use his ability without sustaining damage from the opposition.

Don't forget that (spoiler)

Spoiler

Yoshimo cannot (legally) be in your party after Spellhold

.

Personally, I fill all my level nine slots with Shapechange, just because that's what my playstyle calls for. However, let's not forget that Jan still has access to spell scrolls and Simulacrum, and even then, he doesn't really need those spells to decimate every opponent in the game.

[Wolfdyne]

i just jumped in and thought id throw my two cents in.

in my opinion, haer'dalis or cernd would be most useless.

cernd, because his shapeshifting never seems to keep up to snuff with the rest of my frontliners and since he can use no armor and hardly any weapons all he has are his spells. there not bad but almost all the other characters that can bring divine spells to the table have much more to offer on top of that.

haer'dalis, while far from being useless exactly, annoys the tar out of me with his low constitution. a lot of the times i just leave his dead body lying there cause it irks me that he is that much of a pushover. i seriously IRKED me trying to go the the Unseeing Eye quest with him. The beholders love to target the bard. XD

[doady]

I don't understand hate toward Nalia. Some of her dialogue is hilarious, especially when Jan is in the party as well.

Imoen hardly has dialogue at all from what I remember. And I find her low strength annoying when it comes to carrying and wearing equipment. Jan can be annoying in that regard too.

I know Nalia is a weak thief, but if you have Jan that is not a problem. And she will probably higher level mage than Imoen.

I've never used Cernd as I don't understand the point of shapeshifter. If I need a druid I just used Jaheira instead. And Cernd is boring too compared to Jaheira who is a romance option. Actually, Cernd is just boring, period.

[Crenshinibon]

The low constitution of Haer' Dalis is easily countered by using a Potion of Fortitude or a Girdle of Fortitude and even then, with Tenser's Transformation, his health should be higher than that of a full level fighter.

The shapeshifter is very powerful in the early game and is practically immune to magic. If you're curious, you can look through some of my threads where I described how I played a human Shapeshifter/Fighter.

Also, Shapeshifters can use Valygar's armor, however, towards the end of the game they can have a constant AC of -24.