Sacred Fist (..or how to build a better Monk).

[Scottg]

Sacred Fist - NWN2Wiki, the Neverwinter Nights 2 wiki - Races, classes, skills, and more

This is one of the best prestige classes available, and builds utilizing it can be derived from several classes.

There are 2 limitations to the class however.

1. Once you start the class - you should use Unarmed Attacks only (for physical attacks). Pre-SOZ conventions this could be somewhat limiting with respect to enchantments in gloves (vs. weapons), but even *with* the limitation the build can be quite good.

2. It requires both Improved Unarmed Strike AND Stunning Fist. Improved Unarmed Strike isn't a problem, but Stunning Fist is - UNLESS you have at least one level in the Monk class. Without it, you won't have access to the class until at least character level 10. Generally this means you'll need at least one level of Monk (..though not always).

The best thing about the class is that it provides HIGH BAB progression while still providing Divine spell-casting progression for most of those levels. It then *further* adds in Monk Unarmed Attack damage modifiers, Monk Speed, additional (stackable) AC, and a Wisdom-based additional limited use damage modifier. That's a LOT coming from one class.


The Monk is an excellent single class, but it doesn't have any spell-casting ability. A Sacred Fist on the other-hand does have spell-casting. In this respect then - most builds are Monk builds that add-in a Divine casting class for additional spell-casting ability.

Here is one build that does this, providing spell-casting without seriously compromising the character's unarmed melee:

Sacred Monk | NWN2 Character Builder


There are of course *many* other combination's - which is another reason why this class is so interesting.

[GawainBS]

The one thing that always bothered me with Sacred Fist in NWN 2 is that how Monk weapons don't count for Greater Magic Weapon. In P&P, they count. The advantage is that you get a +5 to hit and damage, and don't have to sacrifice your glove slot.
Maybe Druid's Greater Magic Fang does apply to Unarmed Strikes?

One thing I don't get about your build: Why Cleric 2? I understand Cleric 1 for Turn Undead.

[Scottg]

The one thing that always bothered me with Sacred Fist in NWN 2 is that how Monk weapons don't count for Greater Magic Weapon. In P&P, they count. The advantage is that you get a +5 to hit and damage, and don't have to sacrifice your glove slot.
Maybe Druid's Greater Magic Fang does apply to Unarmed Strikes?

One thing I don't get about your build: Why Cleric 2? I understand Cleric 1 for Turn Undead.

Yeah, your hands *are* the weapons so you should be able to enchant them.

The "Fangs" don't work either.. only the Keen function of Jagged Tooth seems to work.


2 levels of Cleric - 2 reasons:

1. Avoiding multi-class penalty.
2. Access to Divine Shield.

[GawainBS]

How does a second level of Cleric grant you access to Divine Shield? First level should do that. And why bother? You can only persist it via Favoured Soul. (I'm assuming you advanced Favoured Soul with Sacred Fist.)
Can't you avoid the penalty by Favoured Soul X/Monk2/Cleric1? Monk and Cleric are within 1 lvl then.

[Scottg]

How does a second level of Cleric grant you access to Divine Shield? First level should do that. And why bother? You can only persist it via Favoured Soul. (I'm assuming you advanced Favoured Soul with Sacred Fist.)
Can't you avoid the penalty by Favoured Soul X/Monk2/Cleric1? Monk and Cleric are within 1 lvl then.

The first level of Cleric provides access to Divine Might.

The second level of Cleric provides access to Divine Shield.

16 base Charisma (no modification) provides +3 Divine damage via Divine Might, and +3 AC via Divine Shield. (..and that's at character level 8 without equipment/spell/potion modifiers to Charisma.)

You can't persist either, they aren't spells. (..they are feats that leverage your turn undead.)

Multi-class penalty:

Working through it..

The Favored Soul class doesn't count because it's the highest (..Human exception).

Move the other classes more than one away and a penalty occurs.

It looks like you are correct then, the 2nd level of Cleric class could be placed at a latter time (or not at all if you didn't want Divine Shield).

[GawainBS]

Stupid me, I confused Divine Shield with a spell.
Does NWN only grant you access to Divine Feats at Cleric levels? Strange. I know it does other such strange things.
Now, again for P&P, you don't get a multiclass penalty as long as all your classes are within one level, disregarding favoured class. A Human's favoured class is his highest class, so Favoured Soul 20/Monk2/Cleric1 should be safe. Again, you probably know NWN better than I do.

[Scottg]

Stupid me, I confused Divine Shield with a spell.
Does NWN only grant you access to Divine Feats at Cleric levels? Strange. I know it does other such strange things.
Now, again for P&P, you don't get a multiclass penalty as long as all your classes are within one level, disregarding favoured class. A Human's favoured class is his highest class, so Favoured Soul 20/Monk2/Cleric1 should be safe. Again, you probably know NWN better than I do.

I think the multi-class penalty is the same (for PnP vs NWN2).. it's just that this is one area I tend to screw-up. (..and yes, so long as Monk isn't 3+ levels vs a one level Cleric - no penalty.. at least from my understanding.)

For NWN2 both Divine Might and Divine Shield require a class at the time of feat selection that has achieved Turn Undead - i.e. one+ level(s) of Cleric, or 4+ levels of Paladin, or 3+ levels of Blackguard.

[GawainBS]

For NWN2 both Divine Might and Divine Shield require a class at the time of feat selection that has achieved Turn Undead - i.e. one+ level(s) of Cleric, or 4+ levels of Paladin, or 3+ levels of Blackguard.

Annoying, that.

[Scottg]

Annoying, that.

True, but it can be a pretty powerful "bonus", so there should be greater restrictions.

What really irks me is that Turn Undead (by itself) is nearly useless in the campaigns. Even a Doomguide doesn't have the kind of power a modest multi-class cleric had in BG2. As a result, Clerics in NWN's are pretty much "buff" machines and support.

[Scottg]

Here is another Sacred Fist build, but this time the emphasis is more on Melee:

Warrior Monk | NWN2 Character Builder

[GawainBS]

True, but it can be a pretty powerful "bonus", so there should be greater restrictions.

What really irks me is that Turn Undead (by itself) is nearly useless in the campaigns. Even a Doomguide doesn't have the kind of power a modest multi-class cleric had in BG2. As a result, Clerics in NWN's are pretty much "buff" machines and support.

Is the usage of Divine Might & Shield a Free Action in NWN2? If it takes a round to activate, I don't think it's that powerful, given the limited duration. (Granted, still good, but in the end, you spend more time activating Divine Feats than Fighting.)

[Scottg]

Is the usage of Divine Might & Shield a Free Action in NWN2? If it takes a round to activate, I don't think it's that powerful, given the limited duration. (Granted, still good, but in the end, you spend more time activating Divine Feats than Fighting.)

Yup, it takes a round for each.

The biggest thing about it is that it "stacks", and as far as damage is concerned, Divine Might's divine damage is basically unstoppable. (..there is no immunity or reduction to it in the toolset.) On the other hand it does not have a critical component, so it's not quite as good as it might seem.

[GawainBS]

If you have CHA 20, that's only 3 rounds of combat you could have with both active, without running around. Especially at the higher levels, I think those rounds are better spent fighting than buffing these feats. On the lower levels, it might be worth it, though.
Long story short: I'd take a regular Monk/Cleric over a Favoured Soul for this.

[Scottg]

If you have CHA 20, that's only 3 rounds of combat you could have with both active, without running around. Especially at the higher levels, I think those rounds are better spent fighting than buffing these feats. On the lower levels, it might be worth it, though.

Long story short: I'd take a regular Monk/Cleric over a Favoured Soul for this.

Most of the time it's one or the other depending on the build's other capabilities.

CHA 20 ='s +5 (duration and effect), after activation.

If you use both then it's:

4 rounds for one, 5 for the other. Of course if your target isn't right there then you have to move to it, (assuming they aren't moving to you), and that eats-up more time.


The decision on use early-on is largely based on opponent hitpoints and number of opponents.

At early levels (say 1-6), enemy hitpoints aren't that great, provided you are capable of decent regular damage, +2 to +4 additional damage from Divine Might, flurry, and the cleaves might get you through most fights quickly.

A bit past level 6 and you should probably start out with Divine Shield, and then add-in Divine Might.. In fact if you let your opponents come to you, then this is the preferred method because it often takes them a round to get to you, and so you aren't spending a round putting Divine Might "on" while they pound on you.

Of course because Favored Soul utilizes Charisma, increasing Charisma increases spells per day. By level 15 the character could be looking at not 20 in Charisma, but *26* because of a Nymph Cloak +8. That's 8 rounds and 8 damage or 8 AC (..or 7 rounds of one and 8 rounds of the other). That's enough time for most fights. If it's not, you can always "cast it" again during the fight.

Sacred Flames of the Sacred Fist is a bit different - it's just a standard action rather than a full round. It also has its duration set at 1 minute (10 rounds).


Still, the consideration for Favored Soul vs. Cleric is a complex one, and isn't solely based on Divine Might/Shield.

Remember, Cleric is *Wisdom* based - so increasing Wisdom results in better Stunning Fists and better AC (without duration limit), BUT..

1. the Cleric's spell casting isn't like a Favored Souls (particularly with meta-magic), and
2. the Cleric doesn't get Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization for "free", and
3. The Cleric doesn't get elemental damage reduction feats that can alternatively be leveraged into Epic Spells at Epic character levels (NWN2 bug).

(..I should also note that the Wisdom AC/Stunning Fist isn't a "one-to-one" comparison, because you will be increasing Wisdom with spells/items as well. Rather the net effect is that most of your level-up points won't go to increasing Wisdom, which likely amounts to 6 points or +3 at the max.)

[GawainBS]

You're right. I was just exploring the merits/flaws of your build. Everything gets better after critical examination, right? You're one of the few people around that actually listen to and defend against criticism, or adept their ideas. Both are very good characteristics.

[Scottg]

You're right. I was just exploring the merits/flaws of your build. Everything gets better after critical examination, right? You're one of the few people around that actually listen to and defend against criticism, or adept their ideas. Both are very good characteristics.

Graci!

I also like looking at "both sides of the equation" rather than simply defending a position. Speaking of..

There is one other thing I forgot to include:

A Favored Soul's DC on offensive spells is *Wisdom* based (,,not Charisma). The means that those net max 6 points in Wisdom that a Cleric build would have when compared to a Favored Soul would translate into +3 versus an opponents saves.

On the other hand there aren't that many offensive spells for a Favored Soul or Cleric, and most of them are half-damage for a successful save and are either Will or Reflex save-types (..and most opponents are Fortitude save-types). Still, if you fire-off Blade Barrier and watch a Rogue pass through it without any damage (because of high reflex save and evasion), don't be to surprised.

[kayapo]

I found this build to be very intriguing. Have you played it through the campaign? How would this build compare against a full monk one?

[Scottg]

I found this build to be very intriguing. Have you played it through the campaign? How would this build compare against a full monk one?

I've not played either of these builds, but I have tested them out.

I have however played several different types of Monks, and Sacred Fists, and Favored Souls, and .... through the various campaigns.

The Warrior Monk compares favorably to any Strength-based Monk, which for the campaigns is the best type of pure class Monk.

The Sacred Monk build is not as good with Melee.. but it can actually cast effective offensive spells AND have very strong summons.

Which is more powerful for the campaigns? Overall the Sacred Monk.