I'm planning to make a chaotic evil fighter/cleric, but I can't decide whether I should make a human fighter and dual class him to a cleric at fighter lvl 13 (5 points in war hammer, 3 points in two-weapon style) to get 38 cleric levels at the end of tob, which should allow him to get maximum spell slots aswell as great turn undead.
My other alternative is a dwarf fighter/cleric multi-class (2 points in war hammer, 2 points in flail, 3 points in two weapon style). Obviously I'd have considerably fewer cleric levels and therefore less spells and weaker turn undead. On the other hand I'd get fighter special abilities in tob and very good saving throws because of being a dwarf.
I'm also quite certain that someone is going to point out that you can play through the game with any character, and I'm aware of that (having played through the game several times). Still, I'd prefer to build the optimal fighter/cleric character as I have tactics mod and ascension installed and I'd like to cut down re-loading to the minimum.
Which one of these characters is more powerful?
Hi,
I'm just on a play-through with a dwarven fighter/cleric and I can just say that he's really powerful. I don't think that the multi-class is a serious disadvantage. I feel that a cleric doesn't really need all that spell-slots he gets by being single-classed, well at least I never found to be missing any. The fighter lvls add better THACO, better Saving Throws, Greater Whirlwind...etc
On the other hand a fighter doesn't gain that much beyond lvl 13 and the advantages he gains thereafter are nothing that a cleric isn't able to achieve with a few spells (even whirlwind) if it doesn't bother you to do some buffing before each fight.
So speaking of a pure "power" point of view, you should definitely go with a Berserker (for that awesome I'm-immune-to-almost-any-nasty-magic berserker rage) dualed to cleric at lvl 13. You should end up with one of the strongest melee butchers you can create in the game.
One thing though, go with 5* in flails not hammers. If you're speaking of hammers you have probably the Crom Faeyr in mind. For a cleric this is, imho, a useless weapon. The only thing it really does is raise your STR to 25 which a cleric can EASILY achieve with a few spells. Cast Righteous Magic + Draw upon Holy Might --> Voila, you've done it.
With flails you can go for the Flail of Ages + Defender of Easthaven (from Joluv, Bonus merchant in the Copper Coronet) which gives you 2 early available weapons that net you: serious physical damage, chance of slow enemy with no save, elemental damage, +1 AC, 20% immunity to physical damage + Flail of Ages is upgradable to a +5 Weapon in ToB which even makes it better. And believe me with tactics + ascension you really want elemental damage and physical resistances. I'd say this is quite a better deal than war-hammers might give you.
Nokturn
I'm just on a play-through with a dwarven fighter/cleric and I can just say that he's really powerful. I don't think that the multi-class is a serious disadvantage. I feel that a cleric doesn't really need all that spell-slots he gets by being single-classed, well at least I never found to be missing any. The fighter lvls add better THACO, better Saving Throws, Greater Whirlwind...etc
On the other hand a fighter doesn't gain that much beyond lvl 13 and the advantages he gains thereafter are nothing that a cleric isn't able to achieve with a few spells (even whirlwind) if it doesn't bother you to do some buffing before each fight.
So speaking of a pure "power" point of view, you should definitely go with a Berserker (for that awesome I'm-immune-to-almost-any-nasty-magic berserker rage) dualed to cleric at lvl 13. You should end up with one of the strongest melee butchers you can create in the game.
One thing though, go with 5* in flails not hammers. If you're speaking of hammers you have probably the Crom Faeyr in mind. For a cleric this is, imho, a useless weapon. The only thing it really does is raise your STR to 25 which a cleric can EASILY achieve with a few spells. Cast Righteous Magic + Draw upon Holy Might --> Voila, you've done it.
With flails you can go for the Flail of Ages + Defender of Easthaven (from Joluv, Bonus merchant in the Copper Coronet) which gives you 2 early available weapons that net you: serious physical damage, chance of slow enemy with no save, elemental damage, +1 AC, 20% immunity to physical damage + Flail of Ages is upgradable to a +5 Weapon in ToB which even makes it better. And believe me with tactics + ascension you really want elemental damage and physical resistances. I'd say this is quite a better deal than war-hammers might give you.
Nokturn
Thank you for the reply. I think I'll go for a human berserker dual-classed to cleric at 13. I actually already played through bg 1 with this char, so I don't feel like starting over, but I think I'll just change the kit with shadow keeper. While I'm at it I might give flails a try. I orignially thought I needed to have a lawful alignment to get the evil cleric stronghold, which is why I went for fighter and not berserker.
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Crenshinibon
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In my opinion, you should go multiclass fighter/cleric primarily because you get fighter HLAs. That alone gives you a HUGE edge over the fighter/cleric dual class.
In the case of the dual class, I would NOT got as a berserker as in my opinion, Rage does more harm than good and the immunities it provides are easy to supplement with spells or scrolls (Protection from Undead or Protection from Magic - only Demiliches try to Imprison you). I suggest going as a Kensai/Cleric with a focus on flails (more damage, higher THAC0, easier to deliver Harm). The inability to wear armor is easily supplemented by using something like Shield or Barkskin.
In the case of the dual class, I would NOT got as a berserker as in my opinion, Rage does more harm than good and the immunities it provides are easy to supplement with spells or scrolls (Protection from Undead or Protection from Magic - only Demiliches try to Imprison you). I suggest going as a Kensai/Cleric with a focus on flails (more damage, higher THAC0, easier to deliver Harm). The inability to wear armor is easily supplemented by using something like Shield or Barkskin.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
My biggest problem when I return to the baldur's gate series is that I keep changing my mind about my pc whenever I play. I started off with a lawful good fighter/cleric, then for some reason I felt like going for an arcane caster instead so I created a lawful good gnome illusionist, then I considered a fighter/thief but I came to the conclusion that I want to be able to cast spells on my main character after all so I decided to go back to fighter/cleric (evil this time), and now I feel like starting a LG kensai/mage (using flails). :laugh:
Also note that almost every time I start a new character I get to chapter 2 before I change my mind. So even though I pretty much never get tired of baldur's gate per se, I just eventually get tired of clearing the starting dungeon with tactics mod (full install), because the improved illithid encounter alone takes such a long time.
PS. I know about the mod that skips the starting dungeon, but I do want the items and cash from the dungeon so I don't want to skip it either.
Also note that almost every time I start a new character I get to chapter 2 before I change my mind. So even though I pretty much never get tired of baldur's gate per se, I just eventually get tired of clearing the starting dungeon with tactics mod (full install), because the improved illithid encounter alone takes such a long time.
PS. I know about the mod that skips the starting dungeon, but I do want the items and cash from the dungeon so I don't want to skip it either.
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Crenshinibon
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I was under the impression that there was a mod that starts you off at Waukeen's Promenade while at the same time giving you the items and experience that you would have gained from completing the dungeon.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
?Rage does more harm than good
What harm does a Berserker's rage do?[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
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Crenshinibon
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It gives you a -2 penalty to hit and damage and a +2 AC penalty, after the rage ends. Also, it can occasionally cause you to lose control of your character, which I consider to be very dangerous.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
Yes, but stoneskin and mirror image are MUCH more effective at this. One of the best features about cleric/fighters is that they are absolute tanks and able to take a lot of punishment by wearing heavy armor while dealing out a ton as well. I'm not saying a Kensai/Cleric won't work, it's just that kensai/Mage makes a lot more sense.Crenshinibon wrote:The inability to wear armor is easily supplemented by using something like Shield or Barkskin.
Yes, Dungeon-Be-Gone at pocket plane.Crenshinibon wrote:I was under the impression that there was a mod that starts you off at Waukeen's Promenade while at the same time giving you the items and experience that you would have gained from completing the dungeon.
Link: Pocket Plane Group - Bending Baldur's Gate 2 and the Infinity Engine
Unless you're using some sort of rule change mod, no it doesn't. It does for Minsc for some reason, but not for the PC.Crenshinibon wrote:Also, it can occasionally cause you to lose control of your character, which I consider to be very dangerous.
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Crenshinibon
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Well, we're not really discussing the Kensai/Mage. But in any case, I like Kensai/Clerics more, especially when dualled late, since they ALWAYS deliver the Harm spell on their targets.
I'm almost positive that I had that happen, but unfortunately I can't check until I get home from work.
I'm almost positive that I had that happen, but unfortunately I can't check until I get home from work.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
I've played a berserker more than any other fighter kit, and I've never, ever lost control of my character. You're getting confused with Minsc's rage, which is a completely different ability I think. The penalties don't last very long, and the battle usually over by then anyway, the immunity to maze, imprisonment and energy drain far outweigh them in my opinion.Crenshinibon wrote:It gives you a -2 penalty to hit and damage and a +2 AC penalty, after the rage ends. Also, it can occasionally cause you to lose control of your character, which I consider to be very dangerous.
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
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Crenshinibon
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Ah. I suppose I was confusing it with Minsc's ability. I am pretty sure that it doesn't provide protection from energy drain though (at least it's not documented in the ability description, but it does state that the rage gives an immunity to Charm, Hold, Stun, Fear and Sleep).
Nonetheless, I think these benefits only help in the early game as a lot of these effects can be resisted or saved against (while other effects are seen rarely and can be protected from).
In any case, my recommendation for a Kensai/Cleric still stands. To me, that was a very fun character and powerful character.
Nonetheless, I think these benefits only help in the early game as a lot of these effects can be resisted or saved against (while other effects are seen rarely and can be protected from).
In any case, my recommendation for a Kensai/Cleric still stands. To me, that was a very fun character and powerful character.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
It shouldn't provide protection from energy drain, but it does, look at the ability in Infinity Engine Editor and you'll see, Minsc's Rage doesn't, and it doesn't protect from imprisonment either IIRC.
The Kensai/Cleric certainly is a powerful character, I wasn't debating that, although my preference powerwise would be a multi classed Ranger/Cleric. Yes it is cheesy and exploits a glitch, but IMO so is & does Kensai/Anything.
I'd also argue that a Berserker shouldn't be anything other than Chaotic-Neutral or Chaotic-Evil, but that's a whole new debate!
The Kensai/Cleric certainly is a powerful character, I wasn't debating that, although my preference powerwise would be a multi classed Ranger/Cleric. Yes it is cheesy and exploits a glitch, but IMO so is & does Kensai/Anything.
I'd also argue that a Berserker shouldn't be anything other than Chaotic-Neutral or Chaotic-Evil, but that's a whole new debate!
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
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Crenshinibon
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That's interesting. I never knew that it provides protection from energy drain. It's a nice to know and have early on, but Negative Plane Protection is fairly easy to come by early on (especially for clerics that have the spell).
I agree wholeheartedly about the Ranger/Cleric multiclass. It's definitely the most powerful choice mentioned thus far (thought I didn't mention it because we were talking about fighters as the primary class).
Also, I agree with the alignment restriction for Berserkers. Someone that throws themselves into a blind murderous frenzy just can't be lawful.
I agree wholeheartedly about the Ranger/Cleric multiclass. It's definitely the most powerful choice mentioned thus far (thought I didn't mention it because we were talking about fighters as the primary class).
Also, I agree with the alignment restriction for Berserkers. Someone that throws themselves into a blind murderous frenzy just can't be lawful.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
I have a question about flails. I'm curious if flail of ages is as good as you make it seem? I mean foa +3 and foa +4 look aswesome, but the free action on foa +5 almost seems like a downgrade, no? I mean doesn't it effectively make it impossible to use haste or improved haste on the character in question?
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Crenshinibon
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All you have to do is switch to a different weapon, cast Improved Haste and switch back to the Flail of Ages +5. I think it's a great weapon. Not only does it slow, but the elemental damage that it deals goes through a lot of spell protections, namely Stoneskin. That and the elemental damage make it more damaging than other weapons.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
You can also use the [url="http://www.shsforums.net/index.php?app=downloads&showfile=888"]PnP Free Action mod[/url]. Description:Teaboar wrote:I have a question about flails. I'm curious if flail of ages is as good as you make it seem? I mean foa +3 and foa +4 look aswesome, but the free action on foa +5 almost seems like a downgrade, no? I mean doesn't it effectively make it impossible to use haste or improved haste on the character in question?
"This component ensures Free Action does not cancel or prevent movement bonuses - it only negates penalties such as Hold, Web, Entangle, Grease, stunning, etc. Among other things, this means you can now equip Boots of Speed and the Ring of Free Action to gain the benefits of both, as per PnP descriptions. It also fixes various bugs and inconsistencies related to Free Action, Haste and Slow in both unmodded and modded resources (creatures, items and spells)."
I think I'll give this mod a try, I just hope it wont cause issues with some of the other mods I've got installed. Thank you for the suggestion.Daynov wrote:You can also use the [url="http://www.shsforums.net/index.php?app=downloads&showfile=888"]PnP Free Action mod[/url]. Description:
"This component ensures Free Action does not cancel or prevent movement bonuses - it only negates penalties such as Hold, Web, Entangle, Grease, stunning, etc. Among other things, this means you can now equip Boots of Speed and the Ring of Free Action to gain the benefits of both, as per PnP descriptions. It also fixes various bugs and inconsistencies related to Free Action, Haste and Slow in both unmodded and modded resources (creatures, items and spells)."
Well, I guess one can always use cheat mods like that if one is truly desperate!
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps you're right and it is a minor cheat, but considering that without this mod I'll just use the bug that Crenshinibon suggested, I might aswell use this for convenience.galraen wrote:Well, I guess one can always use cheat mods like that if one is truly desperate!
Still, if you're right and this mod is infact a cheat (and not a bug-fix), I'm curious about the mod description:
"Among other things, this means you can now equip Boots of Speed and the Ring of Free Action to gain the benefits of both, as per PnP descriptions."
I'm looking at the last part of the sentence. Is that a lie or what's the deal? I mean if this 'cheat' modifies the game to work as per PnP descriptions, then what exactly makes it a cheat?