Need help with evil campaign!

[Janos1]

Hey guys, okay so my dm has been doing an evil campaign for sometime, Im a human with 2lvls in Bard, and 9lvls in Sorcerer, whos a smart conniving, scheming bastard, however theres a problem (a b*tch of one) another player is a fallen HOUND ARCHON with 1 lvl in fighter and 5 lvls in sworn slayer (dragon magazine 324), now at first i thought a big powerful fallen angel would be useful, however i decided the other day that he had grown to big for his boots when he tried to undermine my leadership (i have my own organisation because of the Leadership feat), that and the player has become to arrogant, he needs to die. Normally id just blow his face off with a spell, but (as we all know) hound archons have spell resistance (his is 23) and he'd kill me quite quickly if push came to shove. Now im asking you guys if you could provide a clever and evil plan of weakening or killing him off, any ideas are welcome, i just really need help!!

[Stworca]

Delete me!

Doublepost. Delete me!

[Stworca]

Well.. I havent looked in D&D books for quite a few months now, but there are quite a few cursed items that look, and act like common magical items (cloak of resistance +x for example) but change into real nightmare when some time passes / conditions are met.

*hint*

The easiest way ofcourse are no-MR-check spells. Depending on the edition you're playing there are quite a few nasty ones. The only barriers are your purse / your level / your imagination!

edit : *Hint* use the fact that he's from outer plane *hint*

*hint* use a deadly plane (plane of positive energy is the funniest one in my opinion) to do the job for you. via teleportation. Possibly in a least-expect-to-be-betrayed moment. I remember sending my party straight to 9 hells when we were escaping from certain death *hint*
*hint* if there are more party members than just the two of you, use your charms to gain an extra edge in case things turn out badly. ALWAYS have plan B! *hint*

The worst thing about killing other party members in a sneaky way, is speaking with the GM in a non-suspicious way. Sadly players tend to break the rule no#1 far too many times "separation of the worlds" and if you leave the room to speak with the GM, your arrogant co-player may suddenly become SUPER-cautious.
But if this will be the case, i'd just quit. Because that's something i simply hate.

[ralary]

Well.. I havent looked in D&D books for quite a few months now, but there are quite a few cursed items that look, and act like common magical items (cloak of resistance +x for example) but change into real nightmare when some time passes / conditions are met.

*hint*

The easiest way ofcourse are no-MR-check spells. Depending on the edition you're playing there are quite a few nasty ones. The only barriers are your purse / your level / your imagination!

Since im a party killer ever since i started playing (here i made sure that noone on GB will ever play with me ) i can give you quite a few other hints.. But i hope this was enough for you to figure the rest out

edit : *Hint* use the fact that he's from outer plane *hint*

you are an expert,right?

[Stworca]

you are an expert,right?

Do i sense sarcasm in your words? I'm just trying to help 'ere

By "use the fact that he's from outer plane" i've meant banish him. But i am not 100% sure if any banish spell bypasses MR. Ofcourse there are some other great anti-outsider spells. Still since you're on an evil campaign, check out book of vile darkness spell components. There is one or two that help bypassing MR should the fight errupt anyway.

edit :
in there's also Draconomicon's: Lower Spell Resistance. (if the book fits your edition) toss in the components i mentioned earlier, and a feat that gives you a bonus bypassing MR and you're good to go!
You could also use Geas spell..
Evard's Black Tentacles bypass MR
Force Cage (a spell for the rich, but as effective as it gets!) , Maze (a quick breather) Reverse Gravity (ahoy!) , Iron / Force / Stone wall spells (no MR obviously) all bypass MR, and are "wait here, while i use some destructive spells on the cavern, and bury you under milions of tons of rock"

Mordenkeinen Disjunction (or however you translate it) is a spell for other campaign maybe, but keep it in mind nonetheless!
hell, even Arcane Lock (lvl 2) can be deadly, to close the doors you're using to escape from certain doom. "Wait, xxx, these stone doors may be trapped!" Arcane Lock.. Teleport without error.
Grease (no MR) while he's climbing on a cliff or balancing on a rope?

Since Curse Removal requires the target to lower his MR, you can use any spell you want while the victim thinks you wish to remove his curse (that he got with your cursed item in the first place) Sweet Imprisonment is my favourite in such cases (but it's lvl 9, so just pick something else. Like domination.. And before it's duration runs out, ask your new pet to lower his MR so you can cast a beneficial spell on him.. which will be domination again.. Ahoy!)

If oportunity arises, and it will cripple your nemesis, you can use the lvl 1 spell that erases any touched text (incl. magical). "This scroll will cure you off your illness, take it to xxx.." "This is an urgent message to the king! He awaits it!" Oh NOOOO! It's gone!

and so on.. and so on.. and it's all for players handbook alone! (except for lower resistance and BoVD components)

edit # 1581 : You can always go full summoner..

[GawainBS]

The worst thing about killing other party members in a sneaky way, is speaking with the GM in a non-suspicious way. Sadly players tend to break the rule no#1 far too many times "separation of the worlds" and if you leave the room to speak with the GM, your arrogant co-player may suddenly become SUPER-cautious.
But if this will be the case, i'd just quit. Because that's something i simply hate.

I had to react to this: You hate it when people become suspicious of you when you talk to the DM in private and start to metagame, but it's perfectly ok to destroy their characters which they have played, built and groomed over the months or even years? And how is talking to the de facto god of the setting (the DM) about influencing the gameworld not metagaming? Sounds quite a bit hypocritical.

[Stworca]

I had to react to this: You hate it when people become suspicious of you when you talk to the DM in private and start to metagame, but it's perfectly ok to destroy their characters which they have played, built and groomed over the months or even years? And how is talking to the de facto god of the setting (the DM) about influencing the gameworld not metagaming? Sounds quite a bit hypocritical.

I have yet to see players who don't make their CHARACTERS get suspicious when i ask a merchant about a -6 wisdom pendant in open, even if their characters are not present nowhere near. Talking to the GM-controlled merchant / mage / whatever as character in private is done by talking to the GM as PLAYER in private. One can ofcourse write it on a piece of paper and hand over to the GM (storekeepr), but the effect will be pretty much the same, unless you play it out perfectly.

Metagaming? ...

Let me be blunt :
"Greetings, kind magic store owner, i wish to see your rare magic items collection"
"Ofcourse, bla bla bla"
"Can we discuss the details of the transaction in private? I may be watched by people that wish nothing more than to see my death"
"Follow me to the backroom"
(gm/shopkeeper and player/character that wants to kill his party LEAVE the room to add realism to the session)

Now imagine :
"Greetings, kind magic store owner, i wish to buy a cursed wisdom pendant"
*the two players sitting next to you will never accept pendants from here on now, regardless of where their warriors / rogues and monks were during the transaction. They could be in another shop / city / country yet still would know that this specific pendant is cursed <-- THIS is what i hate.*

The last method i mentioned was
" i want to buy this (hands over piece of paper) no questions asked"
but this too would cause co-players to set the guard back up. Unless ofcourse you buy several pendants to make sure players don't suspect a thing.. But why should you, when you can simply talk to the shopkeeper in private? Idealy every time your party splits, players should split too (to prevent ANY of the above) but D&D sessions take quite a long time as it is.

Now let me be even more blunt. The original poster asked for help KILLING another persons character. Do you mind not lecturing me on how rude it is to do such a thing? If someone falls into depression when his character dies, it's way down on the list of his problems.

edit : Excuse me if i was too offensive, but in my defense the only reason i saw behind your post was to criticise. Don't worry tho, i'm done bothering with D&D forum. Ahoy

[GawainBS]

If someone whom I fight and bleed besides everyday suddenly starts asking for specific items of which I may know nothing, then, yes, I'll be suspicious.

[Stworca]

If someone whom I fight and bleed besides everyday suddenly starts asking for specific items of which I may know nothing, then, yes, I'll be suspicious.

Especialy if you weren't there, when he asked?

[GawainBS]

Especialy if you weren't there, when he asked?

Let me be blunt :
"Greetings, kind magic store owner, i wish to see your rare magic items collection"
"Ofcourse, bla bla bla"
"Can we discuss the details of the transaction in private? I may be watched by people that wish nothing more than to see my death"

Quite clear that your companions are there, at the time of asking, I think. Whom else would you go private from?

How is

If someone falls into depression when his character dies, it's way down on the list of his problems.

different from

Sadly players tend to break the rule no#1 far too many times "separation of the worlds" and if you leave the room to speak with the GM, your arrogant co-player may suddenly become SUPER-cautious.
But if this will be the case, i'd just quit. Because that's something i simply hate.

?

Sure, they break the rule about metagaming, but you break the rule about D&D being a co-operative game.

What I don't understand: you seem to have a good grasp of the game mechanics (deducing from your spell suggestions), but you'd resort to outright backstabbing? You're able to simply whipe them out mechanicly.

And on topic to the OP: If the player has become so arrogant, have you considered talking to him?
Moreover, if the party is of the same lvl (11th), then that Hound Archon shouldn't have those six class levels. He has 6 Outsider HD and LA +5. Check out Planar Handbook p.23. That's a lot less impressive. SR 16, and a BAB of +6 with only a +4 STR bonus from races. His hitting power won't be awesome.
I think (Draconic) Polymorph will solve your issue. If possible, consider retraining those 2 Bard lvls to Sorcerer, as the increased spellcasting far outweighs anything the Bard lvls have to offer.

[Stworca]

Quite clear that your companions are there, at the time of asking, I think. Whom else would you go private from?

It was an example of a dialogue that would make the shopkeeper allow you to speak with him in private (this and 50 gold pieces..) . Private from anyone that may be in his store right now or might come inside any second. If i was to murder my companions i wouldn't take them shoping with me in the first place.

Note that on multiple occasions i've added that it's just the "what player knows suddenly affects the character too" that i hate.

Sure, they break the rule about metagaming, but you break the rule about D&D being a co-operative game.

What I don't understand: you seem to have a good grasp of the game mechanics (deducing from your spell suggestions), but you'd resort to outright backstabbing? You're able to simply whipe them out mechanicly.

This is a fair point, but know that i'm not doing party-cide on a regular basis. Have quite a few (countless..) sessions behind me, and while i agree its best to co-op, some parties just WONT get along at all. I want to play a drow, other person plays ANOTHER drow, and as a cherry on top we have someone choose a duergarr / anything else that just wont get along. You don't even have to go THIS far to make a boiling party. I've played in a six priests party once. Its naturall that conflicts arise. D&D is a co-op game.But above everything its a role playing game. Conflicts can be resolved by talking / separation / silent acceptance or a slightly more hostile way : either one side becoming superior, or a plain massacre.

in short. I'm not playing to kill my party members, i just did that several times in the past, when i had to (or sometimes wanted too due to my character seign proffit in it. What can you do? Gold runs the world!). Failed once or twice aswell, and died in the process. And it was fun. Probably the most fun i ever had, but i still never had this as my primary goal.. well, except for one time when GM added me to the party as an assassin... mmm... fun. I didn't care if we'd have to switch chars afterwards. And so far neither did the players. Especialy when we could kill my previous character as an NPC later on (and rape his body / imprison and torment his soul.. whatever suited their twisted taste)

How many times did i have a party where everyone wanted to kill each other.. Cannot say. Just a month ago we've finished a year long session. Where i didn't do a single killing blow. Just made players kill each other FOR me. My character was taken to hell by a demon who seduced him waaay before the end of the session, but the destruction was done already, and they all died even after the treacherous bastard that i played was dead... Wonderfull players they were.

edit : ofcourse there were occasions where things went the OTHER evil way. Enslavement. Blackmailing. Greater Geas (which i also suggested to the OP) Pure madness (why kill someone, if you can - using magic - make him hurt / kill / eat his beloved ones.) Crippling etc. etc. etc. Still all of these plus all the killing was just a small, almost non-existant part of all the sessions. Full of trust, co-operation beyond everything that we know from books sessions. Selfless sacrifices.. Quite a few of these. Hell, there even was one where a mean, evil bastard turned neutral thanks to the party.

Now what bothers me is : Whats the point of playing an EVIL character when you hesitate with betrayal, deception, humiliation or murder? Some problems cannot be fixed with words. Ahoy

Yeah, don't worry. I won't even try to join any sessions you're in. And if it turns out to be diferend.. i'll go with a neutral char. *shrug* I am a roleplayer. My characters do what they WOULD do, were they real. No matter the player-to-player consequences. If it's uncool with people.. well, tough luck, i'm out.

Fin. End of off-topic.

[Janos1]

And on topic to the OP: If the player has become so arrogant, have you considered talking to him?
Moreover, if the party is of the same lvl (11th), then that Hound Archon shouldn't have those six class levels. He has 6 Outsider HD and LA +5. Check out Planar Handbook p.23. That's a lot less impressive. SR 16, and a BAB of +6 with only a +4 STR bonus from races. His hitting power won't be awesome.
I think (Draconic) Polymorph will solve your issue. If possible, consider retraining those 2 Bard lvls to Sorcerer, as the increased spellcasting far outweighs anything the Bard lvls have to offer.[/QUOTE]

Wow i didn't expect this many comments =S in regards to what you said, i asked my dm awhile back if i could change my bard levels when we started, and he said no (cuz he's a tight b*stard imo) the only reason i took those lvls is because i didnt realize both of them had a different spell list. Talking to him? you try talking to someone who's f**king evil, however i will implement the advice here, id like to see his smug prick face when i send him back to heaven.

[Stworca]

Wow i didn't expect this many comments =S Talking to him? you try talking to someone who's f**king evil, however i will implement the advice here, id like to see his smug prick face when i send him back to heaven.

There would be only three comments if we didn't argue. (and only one comment if i used the Edit button )

Keep us informed what you're doing! We shall aid you.

[GawainBS]

I meant "try talking to the player, outside the game". I say this, because killing his character won't solve anything, since he will just roll up another one.

Have you pointed out that the Hound Archon is effectively 5 levels ahead of the rest of the party?

A way to salvage those Bard levels: Take one lvl of Spellthief (Complete Adventurer), and then the feat "Master Spellthief." That's from Complete Scoundrel, I think. This lets you add all your arcane levels together to determine caster level, so your Sorcerer caster level would be: 9 (Sorc) + 2 (Bard) + 1 (Spellthief).

[Stworca]

I meant "try talking to the player, outside the game". I say this, because killing his character won't solve anything, since he will just roll up another one.

You can also resort to talking with both the player and the DM about how you feel about the "arrogant" one. Very few people are beyond reasoning, and i agree with Gaw, that if it's the PLAYER that annoys you, killing his character won't solve anything.

(although i probably would anyway.. oh well )

Killing characters should be reserved for times when his character annoys yours (and for "that time of the month".. don't kill me!)

[WickedD]

How did he get to this plane?
If he was summoned: Protection from Evil. He can no longer touch you.
Ignoring the fact that the character has 5 ECL more than you, you can try to get ways to boost your anti-SR powers. Spell Penetration is a feat that helps.
But by far the easiest way of killing him, unless he gets aid from somewhere is this: Improved Invisibility (from scroll if you don't know it), Fly (from scroll if you don't know it), Spectral Hand (from scroll if you don't know it), Necrotic Cyst (from scroll because you don't know it) and then Necrotic Bloat him to death (from scroll because you don't know it). Or just use the Necrotic Cyst to blac mail him into obidience. If you have bluff this is the perfect time to describe how you have used your bought contingency spell. The necrotic cyst spells all do 1d6/level damage and bypasses SR for fun and profit. And quite a few of them deal 1d6/damage on a succeeded save and kills on a failed one. Wheee

Or just use the Improved Invis + fly thingy to Acid Splash him to death, Or more fun-like:
Fly, improved invis and hold monster until hold monster is successfull.
As he is standing still Cloudill the area he stands in. No SR, he's got good poison saves but he still looses 1d2 stamina loss every round until dead.
Laugh manically, then dissappear.

[Sturm26]

I meant "try talking to the player, outside the game". I say this, because killing his character won't solve anything, since he will just roll up another one.

I dont recommend this alternative. I mean, after all, if people actually roleplay they should realize when they make a new character that "hey, not every single character I make is going to be an arrogant ass and mess with other player's stuff." It's okay to meddle with other players, if you have a legitimate in-game roleplaying reason. Not because you as the player feel like doing that with every character you make ever.

[GawainBS]

That's the problem with most players who like to mess with their fellow players: they go out of their way to find an "in character" reason just to annoy and pester partymembers. Often as shallow as "I'm a Rogue, and they steal!", which makes no sense at all, since a Rogue can be several archetypes of characters.

[Siberys]

Dungeons and dragons is first and foremost, a multiplayer cooperative game.

It's not world of warcraft where it's socially acceptable to just obliterate anyone you oppose without remorse (i.e. pvp). The party NEEDS to function together.

Usually in my games, I require that all party members must work together. If a player wants an assassin and another wants a paladin, then they can bicker all they want about their ideals so long as they function as a party and don't go out of their way to harm/kill each other. Otherwise, the game breaks, and I say this from experience.

[luluxiu]

You hate the person you become suspicious when you start talking about very few private DM, but it's totally OK to destroy them play, create and develop over months or even years of the characters?