3.5 Metamagic Feats & Magic Item Creation

[Raist2981]

As a newer DM, I was messing around with feats & magical item creation and came upon the following questions...

1) In the 3.5 Player's Handbook on pg. 93 where it addresses the "Empower Spell" feat, it means that the results of a damage roll, say 1d4+1 where I rolled a 4 on the die would be: 4+1=5x1.5=7.5 correct? If that is the case, are numbers (such as the 7.5 above) rounded up or down in regards to damage? If you multiply the result of the die roll (4x1.5=6) before adding the +1 (6=7), that would work except if you rolled an odd number (such as a 3) in which case: 3x1.5=4.5+1=5.5.

2) In order to create a rod that can replicate the effects of the spell "Acid Fog" (pg. 196 in 3.5 P.H.),for example, 10 times per day upon speaking a command word, would one use the formula: spell levelxcaster levelx1,800gp (pg. 285 in 3.5 D.M. Guide table 7-33) and then because it has 10 charges per day, divide the total cost of the above by 2 (pg. 285 in 3.5 D.M. Guide table 7-33)?

3) Page 88 in the 3.5 P.H. states that metamagic feats can be used to apply metamagic versions of spells in scrolls, potions, and wands. When scribing a spell to a scroll that has been enhanced via a metamagic feat (such as "Empower"), how much does that increase the base value of the spell? When looking at a scroll that just contains the spell "Acid Fog" for example, an un-enhanced basic version of the spell has a base value of 1,650gp (pg. 240 in D.M. Guide); so what would be the value of the same spell that was empowered? Is there no set formula in which case it is something the D.M. is to eyeball? If that is the case, I came up with the idea since the metamagic feat "Extend Spell" fits in with the regular formula for scrolls (spell levelxcaster levelx25gp on pg. 285 in the D.M. Guide table 7-33) where the spell "Acid Fog" is concerned for example, as it simply doubles the duration of the spell based on the level of the caster (say 11th), would equal a duration of 22 rounds with the feat applied (2 rounds per caster level) & would make the scribed spell worth: spell level (6)x caster level (11x2) because of the "Extend Spell" feat=22x 25g=3,300gp Thus, since all the metamagic feats have the same prerequisites (none) meaning one isn't significantly more powerful than another, that if said scroll above had been scribed using only one of the other metamagic feats, for example "Widen Spell", then that should equal the same base value of 3,300gp because the metamagic feat "Widen Spell" isn't necessarily better than "Extend Spell". In a second example, scribing the spell above (as an 11th level caster) using both metamagic feats above ("Extend Spell" & "Widen Spell") would equal: spell level (6)x (11x2=22)x 25gp=3,300gp (for "Extend Spell")+ 3,300 gp (for "Widen Spell") equals a total cost of 6,600gp for the scroll. Using this formula, the maximum cost for an "Acid Fog" scroll would be 19,200gp if it were scribed by a 20th level caster with all applicable metamagic feats applied: spell level (6)x (20x2=40)x 25 gp=6,000 (for "Extend Spell")+ 3,300 (for either "Empower Spell" or "Maximize Spell")+ 3,300 ("Enlarge Spell") +3,300 ("Quicken Spell"), +3,300 ("Widen Spell")= 19,200gp.

4) Page 99 in the 3.5 P.H. states that the creator of a scroll must use up to one-half of the base price of the scroll. Using the above scroll as an example (base price of 1,650gp), that would mean that the scriber must pay 825gp in raw material cost? That seems like a lot considering all the raw materials one would probably have to have in order to scribe a scroll being: parchment (2sp per sheet), inkpen (1sp), ink (8gp per 1 oz. vial), & perhaps a scroll case (1gp). Even in the case that a scroll such as this took more ink or more parchment, it would be quite a bit to equal the 825gp cost...

Thanks to all replies.

[Siberys]

1) In the 3.5 Player's Handbook on pg. 93 where it addresses the "Empower Spell" feat, it means that the results of a damage roll, say 1d4+1 where I rolled a 4 on the die would be: 4+1=5x1.5=7.5 correct? If that is the case, are numbers (such as the 7.5 above) rounded up or down in regards to damage? If you multiply the result of the die roll (4x1.5=6) before adding the +1 (6=7), that would work except if you rolled an odd number (such as a 3) in which case: 3x1.5=4.5+1=5.5.

In D&D, you will always round down.

2) In order to create a rod that can replicate the effects of the spell "Acid Fog" (pg. 196 in 3.5 P.H.),for example, 10 times per day upon speaking a command word, would one use the formula: spell levelxcaster levelx1,800gp (pg. 285 in 3.5 D.M. Guide table 7-33) and then because it has 10 charges per day, divide the total cost of the above by 2 (pg. 285 in 3.5 D.M. Guide table 7-33)?

No, you have the formula wrong.

It is Spell level x Caster level x 1,800. Then that number Divided by (5 divided by charges per day).

For Acid fog it is-

6 x 11 x 1800 = 118,800.

118,800 / (5 / 10)

118,800 / .5 = 237,600

By having more than five charges per day, you would basically be adding to the base cost, not taking away from it.

3) Page 88 in the 3.5 P.H. states that metamagic feats can be used to apply metamagic versions of spells in scrolls, potions, and wands. When scribing a spell to a scroll that has been enhanced via a metamagic feat (such as "Empower"), how much does that increase the base value of the spell? When looking at a scroll that just contains the spell "Acid Fog" for example, an un-enhanced basic version of the spell has a base value of 1,650gp (pg. 240 in D.M. Guide); so what would be the value of the same spell that was empowered?

Mmk, metamagic feats in crease the spells level by 2. So, Acid fog, normally being 6th level, becomes an 8th level spell when empowered. You then use the rules normally as if it were an 8th level spell.

Spell level (8) x caster level (15) x 25 = 3000

4) Page 99 in the 3.5 P.H. states that the creator of a scroll must use up to one-half of the base price of the scroll. Using the above scroll as an example (base price of 1,650gp), that would mean that the scriber must pay 825gp in raw material cost?

Raw materials don't just account for things like the parchment and such.

The magical energy coming from you it takes to imbue an item to make it a magic item is a raw material, which, as illogical as it may sound, costs money. However, this is how the game works and prevents things from getting broken, otherwise you could find a rubik's cube toy somewhere for a gold piece and turn it into a cubic gate effortlessly.

[Raist2981]

1) Gotcha

2) 118,000/.5=236,000. Where did you get the extra 1,600 from to equal 237,600?

3) I somehow overlooked adding the effective level changes when calculating the formula. So realizing that now, the maximum value for an "Acid Fog" scroll would be: spell level 18 (base level 6+enlarged+1,extended+1,widened+3,maximized+3,quickened+4)x caster level (20)x 25gp=9,000gp & would have a range of 200ft + 20ft/20=600ft (enlarged), a duration of 2 rounds/20=40 rounds (extended), 40ft radius by 40ft high (widened), deal 12 damage (2d6 maximized), and be a free action (quickened)?

4) Hmm...I would have thought the exp cost to the scriber would cover personal magical energy consumption...At any rate, the above scroll would cost the scriber: 9 days to create (1 day per 1,000gp cost), 360 exp (1/25 of 9,000), & 4,500gp (1/2 of 9,000)?

[Siberys]

2) 118,000/.5=236,000. Where did you get the extra 1,600 from to equal 237,600?

Not 118,000. 118,800. Two eight's in the number.

So realizing that now, the maximum value for an "Acid Fog" scroll would be: spell level 18 (base level 6+enlarged+1,extended+1,widened+3,maximized+3,quic kened+4)x caster level (20)x 25gp=9,000gp & would have a range of 200ft + 20ft/20=600ft (enlarged), a duration of 2 rounds/20=40 rounds (extended), 40ft radius by 40ft high (widened), deal 12 damage (2d6 maximized), and be a free action (quickened)?

4) Hmm...I would have thought the exp cost to the scriber would cover personal magical energy consumption...At any rate, the above scroll would cost the scriber: 9 days to create (1 day per 1,000gp cost), 360 exp (1/25 of 9,000), & 4,500gp (1/2 of 9,000)?

Sort of yes and no. First off, you'll have to ask your DM if he allows Epic Rules, they are supplemental rules not part of the core game so before any of this math happens, you'll need to make sure it's allowed.

Secondly, you yourself must be able to cast the spell as you want to write it in a scroll. If you want to make a quickened fireball scroll, you must be able to cast a quickened fireball yourself.

Third, assuming you can't cast the spell you described yourself, you must find someone who can, and will craft it for you, which goes back to epic rules. That person will need all the metamagic feats associated with the scroll you want, scribe scroll, scribe epic scroll, improved spell capacity taken 9 times, and he must be 29th level at the minimum. Unless you're playing forgotten realms, you are not likely to find this person.

Fourth, magic item prices work much differently with epic rules than normal ones. So...again, you'll have to check with your DM on that one.



By the way, one last thing. I'd recommend getting a lighter color for your text. The dark green on a black background is very hard to read.

[WickedD]

9 days for making a scroll of that kind of power wouldn't be much.
But it will take a lot longer if you read up on the epic rules. Generally, if a spell is higher than level 9 you're going epic, and as a base just imagine that everything is ten times more expensive.

And when you're getting to that kind of level I think it'd be easier just to use the "chain" metamagic feat and a disintegrate spell. The savingthrow will be the same afaicr, and you'll need only one.

And as for the acid-fog rod, when you start getting to that price I would start thinking about making a permanent effect instead, using the "continuous" entry on table 7-33 of the DMG.
Doing that for "Acid Fog" would be...cool x)
And expensive. Ridiculously expensive.

Funny note though; Making bracers of 'continuous' Mage Armor costs 2.000 Gp and gives +4 armor; saving you 12.000 compared to doing it the hard way with bracers of armor.
And sure, it's easy to dispel, but so are bracers of armor.

[Siberys]

Funny note though; Making bracers of 'continuous' Mage Armor costs 2.000 Gp and gives +4 armor; saving you 12.000 compared to doing it the hard way with bracers of armor.
And sure, it's easy to dispel, but so are bracers of armor.

Well, armor enchantment rules supercede loophole rules like that, so it doesn't count.

Rules like the locate city bomb, now -that's- a loophole.

[Raist2981]

2) Gotcha.

3) I am a newer DM so I am just trying to decipher ins and outs of rules and such for future reference, if not current, so I will be aware of how to create magical items for placement in my world. I am thinking about having epic scrolls & other higher-end magic items & artifacts found only on other planes as well as very rarely found on the Material Plane as "powerful items from the past" or the like. Anyway, back to the scroll...So the highest possible non-epic "Acid Fog" scroll would be: spell level (6+3(widened)=9)x caster level (17)x 25gp=3,825gp? Would an epic "Acid Fog" scroll as previously described with all applicable metamagic feats applied be: spell level 18x caster level (29)x 25gp=13,050gp or 13,050+3,825=16,875gp? Would the exp cost to the scriber of the latter scroll be 522+1,000=1,522 or 675+1,000=1,675?

4) Going back to the rod to make sure I have it right...A rod that has unlimited charges of the spell "Acid Fog" would cost: spell level (6)x caster level (11)x 1,800gp=118,800/0.05 (5 divided by 100 charges (unlimited)=0.05)=2,376,000gp?

[Raist2981]

Hmm...I must ask difficult questions for them to go unanswered among the D&D elite. Here is another...Can someone explain to me how the 3.5 DM Guide (pg. 244) deduced a staff of charming is worth 16,500gp? In other words, where the price of 16,500 came from. Thanks to all replies.

[Siberys]

3) I am a newer DM so I am just trying to decipher ins and outs of rules and such for future reference, if not current, so I will be aware of how to create magical items for placement in my world. I am thinking about having epic scrolls & other higher-end magic items & artifacts found only on other planes as well as very rarely found on the Material Plane as "powerful items from the past" or the like. Anyway, back to the scroll...So the highest possible non-epic "Acid Fog" scroll would be: spell level (6+3(widened)=9)x caster level (17)x 25gp=3,825gp? Would an epic "Acid Fog" scroll as previously described with all applicable metamagic feats applied be: spell level 18x caster level (29)x 25gp=13,050gp or 13,050+3,825=16,875gp? Would the exp cost to the scriber of the latter scroll be 522+1,000=1,522 or 675+1,000=1,675?

Epic Scrolls :: d20srd.org

There's all the information you'll need to know on epic scrolls.

Other epic item information is in there as well.

4) Going back to the rod to make sure I have it right...A rod that has unlimited charges of the spell "Acid Fog" would cost: spell level (6)x caster level (11)x 1,800gp=118,800/0.05 (5 divided by 100 charges (unlimited)=0.05)=2,376,000gp?

It wouldn't be unlimited, it'd be 100 charges for that day, which is still fairly high of course.

Now, honestly I doubt you'd ever need anything beyond 10 charges a day and two 5 charge rods would do the trick. A 100 charge rod, unless it's for an NPC villain who is seriously going out of his way to plague whole metropolises, is unnecessary.

Hmm...I must ask difficult questions for them to go unanswered among the D&D elite. Here is another...Can someone explain to me how the 3.5 DM Guide (pg. 244) deduced a staff of charming is worth 16,500gp? In other words, where the price of 16,500 came from. Thanks to all replies.

Highest level spell cost-

Base-
375 x 4 (charm monster) x 8 (Minimum CL) = 12000

Modifier-
Divide by two for two charge cost instead of one charge cost = 6000

Second spell-
.75(375 x 1 (charm person) x 8 (Minimum CL)) = 2250

Modifier-
Add half value of any other abilities base cost. 12000 / 2 = 6000. 6000 + 2250 = 8250.

8250 + 6000 + 300 (masterwork staff cost) = 14550.


While that is the formula based cost for the staff, unfortunately wizards liked to create a lot of arbitrary numbers for balance purposes and to be fair, you should stick to those numbers as opposed to abusing the magic item creation rules.

[Raist2981]

Hmm...Let's take an Acid Fog staff at 50 charges created at the minimum caster level of 8 for example...Using pg. 287 in the 3.5 DM Guide I come up with:

Base: 375x6(level of spell)x8(caster level)=18,000gp
+75% of next most costly ability: None (?)
+1/2 of other abilities: None (?)
+Masterwork weapon cost: 300gp
Total gp value: 18,300gp (?)

I didn't notice anything under this section (pg. 287) about adding modifiers or the like; however, if using Table 7-33 on pg. 285 in the 3.5 DM Guide, I get:

Base: 50 charges (under Spell Effect section): 6(spell level)x8(caster level)x750gp=36,000gp
+Masterwork weapon cost: 300gp
Total gp value: 36,300gp (?)

I am confused as to which way would be correct here... Perhaps some combination of both? Thanks for all replies.

[GawainBS]

Minimum caster level for Acid Fog is 11. A Wizard needs to be lvl 11 to cast it. So adjust your pricing to that.
Also, this isn't a magic weapon in the sense that it has a +X to hit & damage, so the Masterwork isn't necessary.

[Siberys]

Minimum caster level for Acid Fog is 11. A Wizard needs to be lvl 11 to cast it. So adjust your pricing to that.
Also, this isn't a magic weapon in the sense that it has a +X to hit & damage, so the Masterwork isn't necessary.

Yes it is, Raw Material costs for Staff creation include the cost of a Masterwork Quarterstaff.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cr ... cItems.htm

Down on the table, it says right under staff, Item Cost - Masterwork Quarterstaff.

[GawainBS]

Right, but the 300 gold still won't make much of a difference.

[Siberys]

Right, but the 300 gold still won't make much of a difference.

No but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Raist2981]

Looking back, I think I was confused with the total cost to the creator of the staff and the total cost of the item to purchase a.k.a. market value. So trying this again using Table 7-32 in the 3.5 D.M. Guide (pg. 284) to create an Acid Fog staff with 50 charges at the minimum level...

Item Cost: Masterwork Quarterstaff=300gp
Material Cost: 300gp x 50/1=15,000gp*
*Since this spell does have material components (pg. 196 in 3.5 P.H.), I can only assume that this material cost is valid...(?)
Xp Cost: 300 x 50 x 5gp/1=75,000xp**
**Assuming this is correct, beneath the table it says that a buyer of a staff pays 5 x xp value in gp which would be 375,000gp...(?)
Magic Supplies Cost: None that I could tell...
Base Price (pg. 287 in 3.5 D.M. Guide): 375gp x 6 x 11=24,750gp
Xp Cost to Caster: 990xp (1/25 of base price)***
***Pg. 287 in the 3.5 D.M. Guide under "Creating Staffs" states that 50/# of charges one use of the spell expends is added to the Xp cost for making the staff itself...This would be: 50/1=50xp which I can assume is added to the 990xp for a total of 1,040xp...(?)
Time to Create (1 day per 1,000gp in base price): 24 days

Below Table 7-32, it states that the total market value of an item is:
item cost+spell component costs+base price.
This would be:
Item Cost: 300gp
Spell Component Costs: 15,000gp (material) + 375,000gp (xp)
Base Price: 24,750gp
Total: 400,050gp (?)

The times symbols (x) before the listings of the material and Xp component costs on Table 7-32 may be throwing me off here...Any help is appreciated.

[GawainBS]

The MW Staff is not a material component. It's a flat charge that gets added to the total cost.
With material cost of components, they mean the ones described at the end of the spell. If no specific value is mentioned there, you're used to get it for free.
It would cost 375gp x 6 x 11=24,750gp +300 MW staff to create, XP cost being 1/25 from 24 750, and the buying price (at the open market, so to speak) would be twice the creation cost: (24,750gp + 300) * 2.

[Raist2981]

1) So what about the note at the bottom of Table 7-32 that states: 3. If purchasing a staff, the buyer pays 5 x the XP value in gold pieces. (?) If the XP cost is 24,750/25=990 XP, that would add 4,950gp (5x990) to the total cost of the staff making it 30,000gp (24,750+4,950+300)?

2) Even though the spell Acid Fog has material components listed in the spell description, the material spell component cost listed on Table 7-32 is invalid?

[GawainBS]

There are two kinds of material components: those without a listed GP value in the spell description, like Acid Fog and Fireball. Then there are those with a listed GP value, like Stoneskin.
The first kind doesn't cost you anything, the only requirement is that you can reach your spellcomponent pouch which effectively provides unlimited resources of that kind.
For the second kind, you need to have the specific listed component bought at the price mentioned.

The XP cost mentioned is when the spell would cost you XP to cast, like Limited Wish, for example. Each charge in that staff would cost you 5gp*300xp. Since Acid Fog doesn't cost you any XP to cast, you don't have to pay it.

[luluxiu]

Frankly, I doubt you need any day more than 10 charges, two AA rechargeable stick will do the trick. 100 charge stick, unless it is a serious villain NPC plagued the way the entire metropolis, is unnecessary.

[yingxuy]

A wizard need LVL11 vote. So, adjust your pricing. This is not in the sense that it has played, and A + X magic damage..