Just thought I'd put my build in for those interested in making a run through this game.. I left a little flexibility partly because I'm just writing this up while game installs..
The build is for original NWN1 campaign...
Race: Elf pros: has the stats to get circle kick and 14 strength
Abilities:
Dex 16 (circle kick, dodge, mobility, spring attack), Intelligence 14 (Expertise)
the rest is flexible. I recommend 12 charisma (you will get +9 Cha from henchmans items eventually) and the rest of the points in wisdom 10, strength 14, and constitution 12
Level up plan. Monk = M, Sorceror = S, RDD = R
MSMSMRRRRSMSMSMSMSM...etc until you have monk8sorc8rdd4
You take an xp hit at 4th level the reason is to get extra stun early
feats 1) luck of hero 3) dodge 6) Circle Kick 9) Mobility - helps casting and running around prerequ for spring attack ie tactica movements 12) Craft Wand 15) Spring Attack - now you can run around as much as you want 18) your pick
Spells: 1) True Strike*, Shield*, Protection Evil, Resist Elements, Grease* 2) Bull's Strength*, Owl's Wisdom, Cat's Grace 3) Fireball*, Displacement* 4) Stoneskin*
*Craft a wand
Skills: 5 craft weapon (to make bone wands out of skeleton bones!), Persuade, Bluff, Hide, Move Silently, Spellcraft, Tumble
Build: Draconic Monk
Build: Draconic Monk
Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
I'd take a Human, to avoid the hit to XP and CON. I don't think the extra 2 DEX is worth it. Having to take Weapon Finesse agravates the problem, as you've just had to spend a feat on it.1 lvl of Sorcerer is all you need. Taking 8 won't give you any substantial benefit, while taking more RDD and Monk does. (Better HP, AC, STR, saves,...) You'll need all the to hit you can get, because you're multiclassing between classes with less than full BAB.
Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack are horrible feats. Just max Tumble. I don't know by heart if they're prereqs for Circle Kick, though. Expertise is another useless feat: why would you lower your low to hit even further? Your AC would be decent anyways. Spend those points in INT on WIS.
Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack are horrible feats. Just max Tumble. I don't know by heart if they're prereqs for Circle Kick, though. Expertise is another useless feat: why would you lower your low to hit even further? Your AC would be decent anyways. Spend those points in INT on WIS.
I disagree. Stoneskin,displacement, protection from energy, owls, cats, bulls, truestrike. I get all that from sorc 8.
I am not taking weapon finesse because I end with 23 strength +bulls +gear. I didn't end up taking expertise either. See my feat list. Mobility gives 4 AC when casting. I probably won't take spring attack you are right.
Sorceror definitely gives more benefit than either monk or RDD due to the spells in my opinion. Five more levels of monk wouldn't accomplish much. I found my split to be better than RDD10 splits.
Also remember this game is supposed to be fun. Having some spells to cast and scrolls is more fun than autoattack whole game. :laugh:
elf allows 16 dex from the start which gets me circle kick. Human needs to spend 4 extra attribute points to do that. Elf also has keen senses. RDD can take search.
I am not taking weapon finesse because I end with 23 strength +bulls +gear. I didn't end up taking expertise either. See my feat list. Mobility gives 4 AC when casting. I probably won't take spring attack you are right.
Sorceror definitely gives more benefit than either monk or RDD due to the spells in my opinion. Five more levels of monk wouldn't accomplish much. I found my split to be better than RDD10 splits.
Also remember this game is supposed to be fun. Having some spells to cast and scrolls is more fun than autoattack whole game. :laugh:
elf allows 16 dex from the start which gets me circle kick. Human needs to spend 4 extra attribute points to do that. Elf also has keen senses. RDD can take search.
Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
Mobility only gives +4 AC to AoO's provoked by moving. Given that Tumble's a class skill, this is meaningless.
IIRC, the animal spells last 1h/lvl and stack with items in NWN, no? It makes them more or less worth it, except that less Sorcerer levels translate into better attack, and more Monk lvls in at least 1 extra AC, and extra damage if you go unarmed.
In the end, Stoneskin gives 80 extra HP, which certainly is good, but less Sorc levels = more HP anyway. Protection from Elements can be replaced with a ring you'll find in the OC.
The best spell of the bunch is in fact Displacement, but True Seeing counters this, IIRC, and it lasts rounds/lvl, so it should be cast in combat, and only lasts 8 rounds.
If you start with a Human with 8 CHA, you can spend those extra points on DEX for Circle Kick (but beware this feat, I think there was a bug which made you stop attacking after a circle kick), and have a better CON in the process, an extra feat and extra skill points. I do think that to pick lvl 4 Sorc spells, you need a "hard" 14 in CHA.
Finally, I think your build ends up just as much auto-attacking as melee build, only that it isn't better at it, and spends time buffing up. If you think this is more fun, more power to you. Nobody here can tell you how to have fun, after all.
P.S.: I can't seem to find it any more, but the Player Resource Consortium added a boatload of content to NWN, even a Monk/Mage mix PrC, the Enlighted Fist.
IIRC, the animal spells last 1h/lvl and stack with items in NWN, no? It makes them more or less worth it, except that less Sorcerer levels translate into better attack, and more Monk lvls in at least 1 extra AC, and extra damage if you go unarmed.
In the end, Stoneskin gives 80 extra HP, which certainly is good, but less Sorc levels = more HP anyway. Protection from Elements can be replaced with a ring you'll find in the OC.
The best spell of the bunch is in fact Displacement, but True Seeing counters this, IIRC, and it lasts rounds/lvl, so it should be cast in combat, and only lasts 8 rounds.
If you start with a Human with 8 CHA, you can spend those extra points on DEX for Circle Kick (but beware this feat, I think there was a bug which made you stop attacking after a circle kick), and have a better CON in the process, an extra feat and extra skill points. I do think that to pick lvl 4 Sorc spells, you need a "hard" 14 in CHA.
Finally, I think your build ends up just as much auto-attacking as melee build, only that it isn't better at it, and spends time buffing up. If you think this is more fun, more power to you. Nobody here can tell you how to have fun, after all.
P.S.: I can't seem to find it any more, but the Player Resource Consortium added a boatload of content to NWN, even a Monk/Mage mix PrC, the Enlighted Fist.
The game does not distinguish between AoE due to moving or due to casting! No extra AC in NWN1 for monk levels (at least according to wiki). Yes the 2nd level sorceror spells will be worth 2-4 AC for cats/owls, 1-2 DC for owls, saves (relfex, will), 1-2 damage/AB from Bulls. Stoneskin can be recast and made into a wand for infinite casting! Enemy AI won't cast true see and if they do they are still wasting their round in which time I can punch them with grimgaw. I will replace protection elements with fireball (and wands!) which will be fun barbecuing everyone. It really is fun to buff up I think there is something satisfying.
I never add content to games for a first playthrough...
All of this is debatable but other than skipping spring attack I feel justified in my choices. Elf is a good pick with the keen senses I always know where there is a trap. And I can use a different belt slot than sharwyns to cast my 4th level sorceror spells (using the lantanese ring to do that)... I took 12 CHA so I could cast shield early on in the game. Or else I would have gone 10. Human might be a better choice but the loss of con won't hurt much because of the monk items/buffs give me very high defense..Do you know what soak does? I think it absorbs 5 damage each round but not each hit? Is 2 AC 1 damage reduction and 5 soak (improved old order) better than haste from the dark moon robes?
All I have to say is wand of stoneskin and displacement
I never add content to games for a first playthrough...
All of this is debatable but other than skipping spring attack I feel justified in my choices. Elf is a good pick with the keen senses I always know where there is a trap. And I can use a different belt slot than sharwyns to cast my 4th level sorceror spells (using the lantanese ring to do that)... I took 12 CHA so I could cast shield early on in the game. Or else I would have gone 10. Human might be a better choice but the loss of con won't hurt much because of the monk items/buffs give me very high defense..Do you know what soak does? I think it absorbs 5 damage each round but not each hit? Is 2 AC 1 damage reduction and 5 soak (improved old order) better than haste from the dark moon robes?
All I have to say is wand of stoneskin and displacement
Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
Soak is damage absorption. It works as you discribed. I'd take Haste anyday.
Casting defensively is the better option. It's not in the base game, but one of the expansions. Something else to take note of, or at least to research: casting makes you count as flatfooted, so no DEX or dodge bonuses to AC, which would beat the point of Mobility. Might be corrected in one of the many patches.
You are overrating Keen Senses. I played dozens of none-elfs, and I never missed it. Never missed a secret door.
NWNWiki shows that at lvl 10, Monks get an extra point of AC. It's only one point, granted.
Using Displacement in a wand won't eliminate the drawbacks, though. Unless NWN works differently (again), spells from wands are cast at the lowest possible level (or lvl set by caster, but that's more expensive), which would be 6th for Displacement, 7 for Stoneskin.
Casting defensively is the better option. It's not in the base game, but one of the expansions. Something else to take note of, or at least to research: casting makes you count as flatfooted, so no DEX or dodge bonuses to AC, which would beat the point of Mobility. Might be corrected in one of the many patches.
You are overrating Keen Senses. I played dozens of none-elfs, and I never missed it. Never missed a secret door.
NWNWiki shows that at lvl 10, Monks get an extra point of AC. It's only one point, granted.
Using Displacement in a wand won't eliminate the drawbacks, though. Unless NWN works differently (again), spells from wands are cast at the lowest possible level (or lvl set by caster, but that's more expensive), which would be 6th for Displacement, 7 for Stoneskin.
Well even cast at the lowest possible level a wand of stoneskin (7) displacement (5), shield (1), fireball(5) is very outstanding. I'll actually probably take death armor instead of cat's grace so add death armor to the list.
Defensive casting is good only if you are getting a lot of hits on you or damage. The DCs of hits are lower than the DC of defensive casting...
Keen senses are very good. You must have had max search. Of course I concede that if I were human I'd get more skill points, but as is I would like to have more to put in things like discipline. I'm getting knocked down quite a bit despite having 25 strength so far. Is mobility then dodge AC??
In any case you can always say every build should be X but its debatable in this case that this is one of the best monk/sorc/rdd splits... and those classes are what I was interested in. Some other good splits? What would they be? rdd 10 is nice but you don't want to give up sorc buffs OR monk fist size/tumble and discipline
Defensive casting is good only if you are getting a lot of hits on you or damage. The DCs of hits are lower than the DC of defensive casting...
Keen senses are very good. You must have had max search. Of course I concede that if I were human I'd get more skill points, but as is I would like to have more to put in things like discipline. I'm getting knocked down quite a bit despite having 25 strength so far. Is mobility then dodge AC??
In any case you can always say every build should be X but its debatable in this case that this is one of the best monk/sorc/rdd splits... and those classes are what I was interested in. Some other good splits? What would they be? rdd 10 is nice but you don't want to give up sorc buffs OR monk fist size/tumble and discipline
Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
I think we have different definitions of "outstanding"...
DC for Defensive Casting = 15 + spell level, max 19 in your case. DC when hit by an attack 10 + damage dealt + spell level. Pretty clear, no?
I didn't have max ranks in search, far from it. As long as no enemies are nearby, you "take 20".
Mobility is Dodge AC, yes, so you loose it if flatfooted.
The benefit of the Sorcerer buffs is that they more or less make up the deficiency incurred by taking so many Sorcerer levels in the first place.
DC for Defensive Casting = 15 + spell level, max 19 in your case. DC when hit by an attack 10 + damage dealt + spell level. Pretty clear, no?
I didn't have max ranks in search, far from it. As long as no enemies are nearby, you "take 20".
Mobility is Dodge AC, yes, so you loose it if flatfooted.
The benefit of the Sorcerer buffs is that they more or less make up the deficiency incurred by taking so many Sorcerer levels in the first place.
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Nymie_the_Pooh
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You should be fine for the original campaign. You're only two BAB behind a full monk at level twenty. You give up some nice benefits from more monk levels, but it's workable. The one feat I would try to fit in is Improved Critical. It might not seem like much, but it doubles your chance at a critical threat and adds up over time. Expertise might be a better option than mobility as well as it is +5 AC as opposed to +4 AC. Yeah, it comes with the -5 to hit but you can turn it off when done buffing. There is also Improved Expertise (+10 AC, -10 to hit), but that would probably be a bit tight to fit in. With mobility being a dodge bonus to AC you also only get it against a single target at a time. I'm not sure how it works exactly if multiple enemies get an attack of opportunity against you at the same time.
The downside with Circle Kick is that you switch targets when it goes off. If you want to stick to one target then you lose attacks when you manually switch over as manually switching targets ends your attacks for the round. It also will sometimes switch target to an enemy just out of range which can cause you to be caught flat footed. I don't understand the specifics, but it is something like unarmed combat having a max range of two yards yet enemies within three yards are still considered to be in melee range so are viable targets for automatically switching targets in melee.
Circle Kick is nice in that it is an extra attack every round if you are not concerned with which enemy you are targeting in a group. It is the last attack of the round and made at the same BAB as your first attack. I like it for the OC as I tend to use Tomi and switching targets can help me keep the attention of more than one enemy. It's not essential to try to fit in or anything however.
The downside with Circle Kick is that you switch targets when it goes off. If you want to stick to one target then you lose attacks when you manually switch over as manually switching targets ends your attacks for the round. It also will sometimes switch target to an enemy just out of range which can cause you to be caught flat footed. I don't understand the specifics, but it is something like unarmed combat having a max range of two yards yet enemies within three yards are still considered to be in melee range so are viable targets for automatically switching targets in melee.
Circle Kick is nice in that it is an extra attack every round if you are not concerned with which enemy you are targeting in a group. It is the last attack of the round and made at the same BAB as your first attack. I like it for the OC as I tend to use Tomi and switching targets can help me keep the attention of more than one enemy. It's not essential to try to fit in or anything however.
Circle kick does have the disadvantage of switching targets. But on the bright side what happens is you whittle the targets down and then they all drop all the sudden: hit, cleave, circle kick... like three guys all die at the same time. Its kinda neat!
Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
Thats a disadvantage of CK... On the other hand against enemies with few hitpoints which are the types that mob.... in that case an extra attack per round is a big deal and you kill so fast that it doesn't make much difference. I get 4 base attacks by the end +1 (haste) +1 (circle kick) +1 (if cleave)...
Believe me those guys drop fast and its fun to watch. Of course I have grimgaw with me who also deals a lot of damage with his impossible 18-20 in all physical stats + wisdom. I can buff grimgaw with all those buffs too!
Edit: Update! This build works through chapter 3. I went right to the fire giants because I didn't know where to go and as long as I teamed with grimgaw we shredded things. The ancient red was tough but we dropped it by having flurry and rolling 20s. I am sorc5monk6rdd4
Here are the skills I use with * by useful and ** by essential..
Concentration**, Craft weapon (for wands when I level to 18)** just 5 pts, Discipline**, Hide*, Move silent*, Persuade*, Search*, Spellcraft**, Tumble**
Spells: 1: truestrike, shield (helps vs massive amounts of magic missile guys such as quasits??), protection from evil, grease (helpful as my saves are good versus spells....lay down some grease before a battle) 2: Bull strength, owl wisdom
feats: improved knockdown (monk), deflect arrow (monk), cleave (monk), dodge, mobility (helps when roll 1 on tumble + I don't know if dnd rules for multiple enemies followed on tumble?)..., luck of hero, circle kick(this is great for shredding packs of fodder especially since me and grimgaw have cleave and flurry....the disadvantage is when you are between 2 boss quality enemies, but with tumble/mobility there is little reason you can't position effectively), improved crit unarmed (you're right this is awesome!!), lightning reflex (help arrow deflection and evasion..debatable with mobility), at 18 I will take craft wand and buy a displacement wand..
I am lawful evil and me and grimgaw are comrades in arms!
Gear: head - watcher helm, body - robes of dark moon (haste), hands - gloves +3, cape: mages guild cape: 10 damage reduction against fire and lightning and concentration bonus, belt - hill giant strength +3 (odds still stack with bulls), ring of power, porphyro ring (fully upgraded boddygnock ring (so 2 rings with health regeneration!!), amulet saves +3, boots striding +4
edit: I completed the game, the end was pretty hard. But I feel I was a pretty good soldier. The true strike was very important to kill the dragons. And displacement for the Hands of Morag. I finished as a monk6sorc7rdd4... Its very important to get monk6 for improved knockdown. Aribeth has no discipline skill aparently and she spent my entire encounter on her but
edit: the verdict on circle kick is that it makes encounters with trash enemies much faster = 1 more attack and more chance to cleave. I wished that I could switch it on and off in battles where I couldn't position myself such as against the hands of morag. I didn't want to be circle kicking them! Mobility was nice because positioning was important for my build, I could neutralize wizards with knockdown and melee with stunning fists and I needed to run around a lot so many chances to drop a one on tumble checks.
Believe me those guys drop fast and its fun to watch. Of course I have grimgaw with me who also deals a lot of damage with his impossible 18-20 in all physical stats + wisdom. I can buff grimgaw with all those buffs too!
Edit: Update! This build works through chapter 3. I went right to the fire giants because I didn't know where to go and as long as I teamed with grimgaw we shredded things. The ancient red was tough but we dropped it by having flurry and rolling 20s. I am sorc5monk6rdd4
Here are the skills I use with * by useful and ** by essential..
Concentration**, Craft weapon (for wands when I level to 18)** just 5 pts, Discipline**, Hide*, Move silent*, Persuade*, Search*, Spellcraft**, Tumble**
Spells: 1: truestrike, shield (helps vs massive amounts of magic missile guys such as quasits??), protection from evil, grease (helpful as my saves are good versus spells....lay down some grease before a battle) 2: Bull strength, owl wisdom
feats: improved knockdown (monk), deflect arrow (monk), cleave (monk), dodge, mobility (helps when roll 1 on tumble + I don't know if dnd rules for multiple enemies followed on tumble?)..., luck of hero, circle kick(this is great for shredding packs of fodder especially since me and grimgaw have cleave and flurry....the disadvantage is when you are between 2 boss quality enemies, but with tumble/mobility there is little reason you can't position effectively), improved crit unarmed (you're right this is awesome!!), lightning reflex (help arrow deflection and evasion..debatable with mobility), at 18 I will take craft wand and buy a displacement wand..
I am lawful evil and me and grimgaw are comrades in arms!
Gear: head - watcher helm, body - robes of dark moon (haste), hands - gloves +3, cape: mages guild cape: 10 damage reduction against fire and lightning and concentration bonus, belt - hill giant strength +3 (odds still stack with bulls), ring of power, porphyro ring (fully upgraded boddygnock ring (so 2 rings with health regeneration!!), amulet saves +3, boots striding +4
edit: I completed the game, the end was pretty hard. But I feel I was a pretty good soldier. The true strike was very important to kill the dragons. And displacement for the Hands of Morag. I finished as a monk6sorc7rdd4... Its very important to get monk6 for improved knockdown. Aribeth has no discipline skill aparently and she spent my entire encounter on her but
edit: the verdict on circle kick is that it makes encounters with trash enemies much faster = 1 more attack and more chance to cleave. I wished that I could switch it on and off in battles where I couldn't position myself such as against the hands of morag. I didn't want to be circle kicking them! Mobility was nice because positioning was important for my build, I could neutralize wizards with knockdown and melee with stunning fists and I needed to run around a lot so many chances to drop a one on tumble checks.
Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.