Kensai or Monk?

mrdeluxe · Post by **mrdeluxe** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:48 pm

I keep going back and forth between the two, so I was wondering your opinions. Not which class is more powerful, but more fun to play (especially in a 6-men party).

It has to be a straight Kensai, not Kensai-Mage/Druid or Thief.

Both can't wear Armor, both hit every well and very fast, but the Kensai can use cool weapons (I normally go for a two-handed sword), and the Monk has great saves and resistances/abilities.

Your 2¢…

TaniaR · Post by **TaniaR** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:46 am

monk. monk monk monk

that's what i'd choose

Dummy · Post by **Dummy** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:54 am

if you dont want to dual, monk all the way

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:35 pm

Both are equally powerful, however - the Monk CAN wear Keldorn's armor for some reason, given that he meets the stat requirements. However, not being able to wear armor isn't the disadvantage here - it's the fact that he gains permanent Free Action, which makes him immune to slow, but to the awesome Improved Haste as well.

Both classes tend to play exactly like any other fighter does, though in terms of raw power, the Kensai comes out on top, in both Shadows of Amn, as well as Throne of Bhaal.

The monk has very nice attack animation, whereas the Kensai has the standard one of any other character.

I would choose the character that you would have an easier time roleplaying with - these two play almost exactly the same as a fighter when you get down to it, but what makes them more fun is their ability to use certain items to make up for their disadvantages (such as using the Shield Amulet instead of armor, or using wands to throw spells at enemies, which is something that the monk has over the Kensai).

Rancid Sushi · Post by **Rancid Sushi** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:49 am

I hate that the Monk only gets 1D8 HP instead of the normal 1D10 for a fighter. When you get to TOB, hit points are much more important that armor class because you need a really low AC to stop anything.

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:24 pm

AC really doesn't matter in ToB, primarily because if you have -24 AC (which is pretty much the cap - unless you're using a one-handed weapon, with that fighting style), enemies still manage to hit you. Hit points don't matter much either - through items you get enough damage mitigation (Mirror Image, Stoneskin, Health Regeneration, Imunitities ) and by the time AC stops being useful, you'll have other abilities to boost your survivability and killing power.

Also, I forgot to mention - a Monk has an easy time with Mages, due to his astronomical magic resistance.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:44 pm

I played a lot of Kensai, but only ever with the intention of dualling to Mage or Thief (preferably at 13). The no-armor restriction is very annoying for a tank. Bring an extra healer.

Keep in mind that Kensai can throw daggers and axes rather well. It's hard to get a magical throwing axe or dagger (that returns to your hand) early in the game, though.

I never played a Monk, but of the two, the Monk seems more adept at the "run up and hit things until they die" strategy, with many resistances and immunities preventing things from going sour.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:34 pm

It's hard to get a magical throwing axe

Not if you're good, Bernard sells the best throwing axe in the game after you free Hendak, which anyone should be able to do right after exiting Chateau Irenicus. Of course a Kensai shouldn't be able to use throwing axes or daggers, I'm surprised that glitch has never been fixed.

TinyMage · Post by **TinyMage** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:58 am

You can steal the axe from Bernard, just make sure you have around 240+ pickpocket. I always do that, and take his nice scrolls too.

You don't need to rescue anyone, just kill that lynigan ( or whatever his name is ) guy.

There is a +2 throwing axe on the gang in the sewers. They aren't that hard to take out if you know what you're doing.

There is a another +3 axe on one of the shadow thieves if you side with bodhi, it's at the docks / retrieve package quest part.

There's also the dwarven thrower +3, if you're a dwarf, sold by a merchant in trademeet.

BTW, monks are nowhere near as powerful as kensai's.

A level 40 kensai has +13 ( or was it +14? ) to damage, and with dual wield + improved haste can easily reach 10 attacks per round, for many MANY rounds.

A level 40 monk only gets 4 attacks per round, and cannot be hasted. They get whirlwind, but you have to waste time casting that every round, and they still won't do anywhere near as much damage and can't use nice stuff like crom faer. The magic resistance is nice, but that still doesn't protect you from everything, especially in TOB.

AC for a kensai is not a problem, you can just have your mage cast spirit armor on him, no big deal and it lasts for a looooooooooong time. The lack of bracers does hurt though.

roller1234 · Post by **roller1234** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:28 am

both suck, but id choose a monk, mainly because it is an underplayed character and something different than just plain hit&run that is kensai.

Rancid Sushi · Post by **Rancid Sushi** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:19 pm

I wouldn't say Kensai is "hit and run." You just need to send in the party's tank to draw aggro, then send the Kensai in to deal the damage.

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:35 pm

Both classes are very solid and both of them are fully capable of holding their own in a sustained toe to toe combat in both, SoA and ToB, without the aid of any other party members.

The Kensai is both, offensively and defensively strong - as much as he needs to be to survive - however, the Monk is stronger in terms of utility (and starting AC), having access to many wands, thus also having a much stronger presence throughout the entirety of SoA.

Believe it or not, in the end, the Kensai does win in terms of physical defense (depending on weapon choice), but the Monk actually does have enough magic resistance to simply ignore a lot of spells and effects.

As for the Improved Haste argument - Greater Whirlwind casts much faster than Improved Haste (obtainable through the Ring of Gaxx, if we're assuming a solo scenario) and is, realistically, one of the two high level abilities worth taking.

The two classes do in fact deal the same amount of damage, however, the monk's built in defenses revolve around avoiding attacks (more noticeable early game and against not full on fighter types) as well as immunity to magic damage, which allows for many strategies, including creating a damaging area for the enemies with the use of the Wand of Cloudkill. The Kensai however, having no real built in defense, can use the Defender of Easthaven to boost his physical resistance to a great 40%, from the Monk's 20% (through the Hardiness skill).

I would say that both classes are fun to play and both are pretty evenly matched, though focusing in different areas.

mrdeluxe · Post by **mrdeluxe** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:34 am

Very nice overview, Crenshinibon.

In a glancing view I would conclude that the Monk is a more interesting character for a solo or duet game (I could envision a very cool play with a Monk and Viconia where both would have extremely high magic resistance).

I never knew that the Monk could use wands, that opened up a bunch of interesting strategies!

On the other hand, the Kensai would excel in a larger party, particularly one with a thief for finding and disabling traps, and a mage for piercing through the opponents magical protections and casting improved haste.

An unorthodox, but extremely powerful Kensai would be one dual wielding flails: Flail of Ages and Defender of Easthaven! And since he's a Fighter, by level 27 he would have Grand Mastery in two different weapons, like Flails and Axes or Bastard Swords. With these possible combos the Kensai would be almost unkillable. Make him an half-orc and you could pump his Constitution naturally to 21, 22 with the Axe of the Unyielding.

However, when picturing an half-orc Kensai I can't see him use anything else other than a two-handed weapons. Anything else and it would look like he was fighting with toothpicks…

roller1234 · Post by **roller1234** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:25 am

With thac0 not mattering, a Kensai is simply a plain fighter who does a bit more damage, thats all. At the cost of not being able to cast spells which is a killing penalty. (Because he takes the place away from a character who could). Neither can the monk, but at least he comes permanently prebuffed already. He can use scrolls and wands, but im unsure how useful that actually is.

edit: hardiness is 40% btw.

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:22 pm

roller1234: Thanks for the correction. Mind you, he can only use priest scrolls.

mrdeluxe: Actually, that's exactly how I play my Kensai - Half-Orc with dual flails (Flail of Ages and Defender of Easthaven).

Yes, the Kensai is good with a party - however, a lot of the things you described can be achieved without a party - but through items alone. You have rings, necklaces and cloaks that give you Improved Haste, weapons that attack THROUGH magic protections and so forth. You can mimic a lot magic effects through weapons and items, which can pretty much remove the disadvantages of the class.

The game is simple enough that you can play the game without the use of a caster, although, avoiding the Kensai mage, my favorite dual class is the Kensai/Cleric for the solidity of the character (not to mention, you can always say that you're a warrior-priest of this god or that). Functionally, you can achieve a damage physical damage resistance 85% (without cheating) as well as a high regeneration, and a whole lot more killing power... not to mention the amazing Harm spell, which the Kensai portion is very capable of delivering.