Throne of Bhaal

VaultDweller13 · Post by **VaultDweller13** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:03 pm

Hey everyone. This post is going to contain spoilers about Shadows of Amn, so don't read it if you value that "Virgin" playing experience.

I've been a long time fan of Baldur's Gate. I've played Totsc and the original about 4 times to completion and god knows how many characters who never finished. I've loved the game since childhood, and only recently was able to get Baldur's Gate II and the expansion.

SOA started off amazing, I was infatuated with it (usually play a blend of RPGS/RTS, but I found myself just playing BGII on my free time). It reminded me, and expanded on everything I loved about the first game.

The ending was a horrible letdown though. It felt cheesy, contrived, and the elves really ruined the end of the game for me. I felt very forced down the path of "Help the elves!", when they had clearly mis-treated my character. I felt like a crucial opportunity for roleplaying, and more importantly, decision making, had been bypassed. To carry the analogy, if a pen and paper DM pulled the same shenigans, I'd probably smack him.

For context, I was playing a neutral evil cleric, and didn't like being captured, having information withheld from me, minimal rewards from returning the elf item that dispells the illusion, and elves in general.

So my question here is whether Throne of Bhaal is worth my time. Not in the sense of "Are there pretty new spells, is the gameplay good, etc", but in the sense of the writing and roleplaying. Does it have that free, open feel, and well written enemies of the first Baldur's Gate? Are you as excited to face off with a Bhaalspawn in TOB as you were when you finally hit Sarevok in BG1?

I ask because I purchased an anthology that included the Icewind Dale series, and I'm wondering if I should play those, instead of looking for an end to the Bhaalspawn saga that may be ultimately be unsatisfying.

What are your thoughts? Is it worth my time?

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:16 pm

ToB isn't as good as the IWDs but since you have it you might as well as play it to conclude the story. It's definitely not about being nice and helping little elves, it's about the children of Bhaal fighting each other for their heritage.
The ending is definitely better than the SoA ending.

Ares2382 · Post by **Ares2382** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:43 pm

Can't say whether ToB is better then IWD games since I have never gotten far in IWD games, but it's diffidently worth it for the ending. There are some great dialogues along the way, especially with a certain monk character you meet during your adventure. But on occasion you're still forced into helping people, especially in the first city you visit, even if your character is evil.

VaultDweller13 · Post by **VaultDweller13** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:32 am

Ares2382 wrote: ...it's diffidently worth it for the ending. There are some great dialogues along the way, especially with a certain monk character you meet during your adventure. But on occasion you're still forced into helping people, especially in the first city you visit, even if your character is evil.

kmonster wrote:It's definitely not about being nice and helping little elves, it's about the children of Bhaal fighting each other for their heritage.
The ending is definitely better than the SoA ending.

Right on. This is kind of what I was looking for; someone to vouch that the ending is worthy of the series.

In regards to the monk you've mentioned, does that mean I should be on the watch for a monk to allow into my party? Will the great dialogues be easily accessed, or do I run the risk of bypassing them if I don't go out of my way to find the monk?

Thanks for the replies too, guys. It's nice to know there's a forum that isn't dead for games as old as these.

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:05 am

You can't miss the monk and he's not joinable.

QuenGalad · Post by **QuenGalad** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:14 am

Throne of Bhaal is rather railroaded and doesn't allow much wriggle room for your character's decisions. It does offer a satisfying closure to the series, though, and quite a lot of Bhaal-worthy bloodshed

As for Icewind Dale - I really feel I have to warn you. The IWD games are pretty much hack&slash with a baldur-ish engine. There is an attempt at a plot, but it doesn't really matter, you just get endless dungeon crawl without even party interactions to amuse you. Nice music, though.

Dummy · Post by **Dummy** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:58 am

QuenGalad wrote:Throne of Bhaal is rather railroaded and doesn't allow much wriggle room for your character's decisions. It does offer a satisfying closure to the series, though, and quite a lot of Bhaal-worthy bloodshed

this is pretty much what i wanted to write

VaultDweller13 · Post by **VaultDweller13** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:46 pm

kmonster wrote:You can't miss the monk and he's not joinable.

Alright, thanks for clarifying that for me.

QuenGalad wrote:As for Icewind Dale - I really feel I have to warn you. The IWD games are pretty much hack&slash with a baldur-ish engine. There is an attempt at a plot, but it doesn't really matter, you just get endless dungeon crawl without even party interactions to amuse you. Nice music, though.

Well that's frustrating. How's Neverwinter Nights? I'd go buy that if the writing/plot is better.

Planescape Torment also came with the anthology I purchased. Does it have a better story than Neverwinter/IWD?

I guess I'm just trying to figure out what the "Best" use of my time spent on the computer is. I really appreciate the replies guys, it's nice to have a resource of people who have played these games before to ask questions.

Garriath · Post by **Garriath** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:55 pm

I'll first say that if you're interested in story, avoid NWN like the plague. The main campaign is an incredibly long, incredibly dull slugfest. With the story that it has, it might have made for an interesting 2-hour minimod, but they milked it out to the point it was utterly unbearable. This was somewhat amended in the two expansion packs, which start a new campaign, but even those can't be compared with Baldur's Gate. It also hasn't aged nearly as well as Baldur's Gate; the graphics look very crumby, and the engine doesn't even portray the rules all that well.

I'd say the same for NWN2, but I know there are a handful of people who actually liked it. I've heard excellent things about its expansion, but honestly, after finishing NWN2's original campaign, I was too disgusted with the game to give MotB a try. I recognize that that's probably my loss, but I don't feel too bad about it.

Lots of players, especially those on this site, like to say that Planescape's the best game that's ever been made. I feel like this should be qualified a little. If it's the story that you're interested in, Planescape probably is the best game in the world for you. It's very long, has an incredible plotline, and adjusts itself to the character you build very, very nicely. On the other hand, the gameplay itself is mediocre; the combat in particular is a definite cut below Baldur's Gate and IWD. However, nearly everyone will agree that the incredible imagination that went into the locations, characters, and writings more than holds this up.

Ares2382 · Post by **Ares2382** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:51 pm

VaultDweller13 wrote: Planescape Torment also came with the anthology I purchased.

OMG, you haven't played Torment, yet? What is wrong with you. GO PLAY IT NOW!!!

Lol, no seriously. Torment is by far, imho, the best story driven cRPG in the history of cRPGs.

Memorable characters, unique setting, and tons of great dialogue. As long as you can get past the dated graphics and the somewhat clunky combat, you will enjoy this game a lot.

VaultDweller13 · Post by **VaultDweller13** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:20 pm

Garriath wrote:I'll first say that if you're interested in story, avoid NWN like the plague. The main campaign is an incredibly long, incredibly dull slugfest. With the story that it has, it might have made for an interesting 2-hour minimod, but they milked it out to the point it was utterly unbearable. This was somewhat amended in the two expansion packs, which start a new campaign, but even those can't be compared with Baldur's Gate. It also hasn't aged nearly as well as Baldur's Gate; the graphics look very crumby, and the engine doesn't even portray the rules all that well.

I'd say the same for NWN2, but I know there are a handful of people who actually liked it. I've heard excellent things about its expansion, but honestly, after finishing NWN2's original campaign, I was too disgusted with the game to give MotB a try. I recognize that that's probably my loss, but I don't feel too bad about it.
If it's the story that you're interested in, Planescape probably is the best game in the world for you..

Ares2382 wrote:OMG, you haven't played Torment, yet? What is wrong with you. GO PLAY IT NOW!!!

Lol, no seriously. Torment is by far, imho, the best story driven cRPG in the history of cRPGs.

Memorable characters, unique setting, and tons of great dialogue. As long as you can get past the dated graphics and the somewhat clunky combat, you will enjoy this game a lot.

Thanks for the heads-up about neverwinter nights. That's disappointing, but good to know about.

I really do play RPG's for the stories. I loved the epic story telling and immersion I felt in the first BG and Fallout. I can get past the graphics no problem. Although I can definitely get my rocks off and Starcraft II and shiny new shooters, I feel like it's erroneous to dismiss older games purely on the basis that they're old. (I get that explains why I'm here)

Alright, so as far as story driven games go, it seems like

Planescape > Baldur's Gate TOB > Icewind Dale series > Neverwinter Nights

I guess I'm beating BGII TOB for closure, then into Planescape Torment.

Thanks for your help and the warm welcome guys.

I guess the last game in the anthology I haven't mentioned is Temple of Elemental Evil. Yay or nay for story and plot?

Dummy · Post by **Dummy** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:33 am

I really liked TOEE, but i must admit my opinion is biased.
I run the Dungeon a few times as a Pen & Paper, but never managed to finish it.

As for the story, i liked it although its quite old school d&d, because its a real old adventure.

The fights, atleast in my opinion, are much harder as unmodded BGII or NVN ICD etc.

The one thing that really boggles me, but that goes for all the infinity engine games, that there are no secret doors, its usually harder to spot NORMAL Doors because the "secret" ones just pop up as soon as you pass by in a shiny purple color.
I mention this here because it has a HUGE inpact on how you play TOEE

Garriath · Post by **Garriath** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:49 pm

Yeah, here's the rundown on ToEE:

It's got a *much* more faithful interpretation of D&D rules (and it's 3rd edition) than any of the other games mentioned. As such, from a strict gameplay perspective, it's probably the best of the bunch. I also find its graphics very appealing.

That said, it has a much smaller focus on story than Baldur's Gate or Torment. Expect lots of fights, some of them very challenging, but not a whole lot of character development.

It's fatal flaw, however, is the fact that it's incredibly short. It consists, more or less, of two villages and two dungeons. If you go in to the game expecting it to be that short, it's alright. Just don't go in expecting an epic story like you find in the other games. It's a short, satisfying dungeon crawl; it's basically well done, but don't expect a work of art.