I can't decide between two characters:
A Kensai > Thief, dual at level 9, with:
+++++ in Katanas
++ in Single Weapon Style
Or an elven Fighter/Thief with:
++ Short Bows
++ Katanas
++ Scimitars
+++ Dual Wield (With a + in Single Weapon Style)
I'm trying to make a deadly, versatility thief that can backstab, find, disarm and set traps. I'm also taking him from BG1 to ToB.
The Kensai > Thief I'll dual as soon he hits level 9. I know that level 13 would be best, but I just can't wait so long. I prefer Single Weapon Style for roleplaying reasons and it makes using a throwing dagger easier.
His only weapons would be a Katana (Celestial Fury than Hindo's Doom), and a Throwing Dagger for ranged attacks.
The Fighter/Thief would be more of a jack-of-all trades: Dual wielding different weapons or using a bow for ranged combat. A less distinct character, but much easier to take through BG1.
Which of these do you think is more appealing? I'm leaning for the Kensai > Thief, but I cringe on the though of taking him through all of BG1. But maybe it could be a fun challenge, I guess…
What other builds of this genre do you recommend?
Help me create my deadly rogue!
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Crenshinibon
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Since you're starting from BGI, I would suggest to go a fighter/thief multiclass (although I favor mage/thief myself). Alternatively you could just tough it out and play a fighter through the entire first day... and always have him use bows and pretend that he's a stealthy sniper.
The fighter/thief may not do as much damage as the Kensai, but he does boast a solid THAC0 score and can actually support dual wielding, as well as a plethora of powerful fighter abilities - all without downtime.
Two things I'd like to point out (just in case you don't know):
1. One handed weapons are weaker for backstabs than certain two handed weapons.
2. Katanas are among the weakest backstabbing weapons through most of the game.
3. When you dual wield, your THAC0 on your main hand tends to decrease, making it significantly harder to hit the enemy with your backstab.
For other characters like this I would suggest the following:
1. Mage/Thief - use spells to make up for your lack of fighting prowess (you become stronger than any fighter after you are able to cast level 6 spells. Aside from being an amazing melee combatant, some spells will allow you to become invisible on the spot (allowing you to backstab more without retreating - or letting you escape from a bad situation). In addition, the ability to use wands is simply amazing - it makes life so much easier and lets you wreck havoc wherever you go. When your reach SoA, you will be able to equip yourself right from the start with good weapons and "armor", depending on spell choice, all of which can last you for a significant amount of time.
2. Play a pure rogue. It doesn't matter if you can't fight hand to hand, that's not what you're supposed to do. You can solo the entire game relying fully on your hit and run tactics - you just need to work on that THAC0 score and abuse those shadows. When you get to SoA, you can pick up the Assassin kit, and it's smooth sailing from there - you do tons of damage and even have the ability to completely shut down choice targets (especially casters) without needing the raw damage to kill them.
3. You can apply that sniper idea to a ranger (who does have stealth) and upon reaching SoA turn him into a Stalker. Yes, he pays the price in terms of damage by only having an x3 multiplier - but he's a solid melee fighter and a very defensive one at that. You can heavily damage the main target and proceed to cause chaos around them. Mind you, all other options aside from the pure rogue enjoy that as well (particularly the mage/thief who not only enjoys an x5 multiplier and more health than you can dream of, but the ability to fire off Cloud Kill or sever Skull Traps and Fireballs upon making himself known.
The fighter/thief may not do as much damage as the Kensai, but he does boast a solid THAC0 score and can actually support dual wielding, as well as a plethora of powerful fighter abilities - all without downtime.
Two things I'd like to point out (just in case you don't know):
1. One handed weapons are weaker for backstabs than certain two handed weapons.
2. Katanas are among the weakest backstabbing weapons through most of the game.
3. When you dual wield, your THAC0 on your main hand tends to decrease, making it significantly harder to hit the enemy with your backstab.
For other characters like this I would suggest the following:
1. Mage/Thief - use spells to make up for your lack of fighting prowess (you become stronger than any fighter after you are able to cast level 6 spells. Aside from being an amazing melee combatant, some spells will allow you to become invisible on the spot (allowing you to backstab more without retreating - or letting you escape from a bad situation). In addition, the ability to use wands is simply amazing - it makes life so much easier and lets you wreck havoc wherever you go. When your reach SoA, you will be able to equip yourself right from the start with good weapons and "armor", depending on spell choice, all of which can last you for a significant amount of time.
2. Play a pure rogue. It doesn't matter if you can't fight hand to hand, that's not what you're supposed to do. You can solo the entire game relying fully on your hit and run tactics - you just need to work on that THAC0 score and abuse those shadows. When you get to SoA, you can pick up the Assassin kit, and it's smooth sailing from there - you do tons of damage and even have the ability to completely shut down choice targets (especially casters) without needing the raw damage to kill them.
3. You can apply that sniper idea to a ranger (who does have stealth) and upon reaching SoA turn him into a Stalker. Yes, he pays the price in terms of damage by only having an x3 multiplier - but he's a solid melee fighter and a very defensive one at that. You can heavily damage the main target and proceed to cause chaos around them. Mind you, all other options aside from the pure rogue enjoy that as well (particularly the mage/thief who not only enjoys an x5 multiplier and more health than you can dream of, but the ability to fire off Cloud Kill or sever Skull Traps and Fireballs upon making himself known.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
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Space Invader
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2. Katanas are the 2nd best weapon for backstabbing after staves, especially with mods (Sanchuudoku anyone?).Crenshinibon wrote: 2. Katanas are among the weakest backstabbing weapons through most of the game.
3. When you dual wield, your THAC0 on your main hand tends to decrease, making it significantly harder to hit the enemy with your backstab.
Ofc I'm not considering Golem's fist or other big cheese.
3. With 3 points in dw, your main hand THAC0 will be the same with or w/o the 2nd hand weapon.
I forgot to say that I'm playing with BGTutu, so I will be using the same character throughout both games, be it a Kensai, Stalker or Assassin.
While I know that staffs are probably the best backstabbing weapons, they don't seem right to me in terms of character creation (a stealthy character dragging a big staff with him?). That's why I'm favoring Katanas and probably Scimitars (Wakizashis, etc). Not Dual Wielding with the Kensai is also a choice. I know the build is a little abusive of the system, so I'm creating self-imposed restrictions.
A Stalker is an interesting class, but I'm leading more to a Thief since there is no pure thief NPC in BG2, and I never really played as one.
Assassin is also a very appealing class, how do you think he fairs against a Kensai > Thief?
While I know that staffs are probably the best backstabbing weapons, they don't seem right to me in terms of character creation (a stealthy character dragging a big staff with him?). That's why I'm favoring Katanas and probably Scimitars (Wakizashis, etc). Not Dual Wielding with the Kensai is also a choice. I know the build is a little abusive of the system, so I'm creating self-imposed restrictions.
A Stalker is an interesting class, but I'm leading more to a Thief since there is no pure thief NPC in BG2, and I never really played as one.
Assassin is also a very appealing class, how do you think he fairs against a Kensai > Thief?
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Space Invader
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Crenshinibon
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There is a reason for my low opinion of Katanas and that's because they generally have low modifiers for most of the game. There is ONE +4 Katana in the game (out of a total of four unique Katanas) and, unless you're a Kensai/Thief, you rely on that modifier for your guaranteed damage. Aside from that, daggers, shortswords and longswords tend to have more useful attributes attached to them, whereas the Katanas don't have anything overly useful, aside from Dak'kon's Zerth Blade, which is a weapon of for multi/dual class mages and bards.
With three points in dual wielding, your main hand THAC0 will still be lower than if you were using the weapon alone. Especially as a single class thief, you will need all the THAC0 you can get in order to get the first strike.
I can assure you that with smart use of magical items, you will have no problems soloing with the Kensai or with any of those classes, much less play through the game with a party.
I always thought of the damaging staves as those that martial artists use, very flexible and light, whereas the magical staves were more bulky and solid, having many knobs and keys to trigger their effects.
A Kensai/Thief is stronger in hand to hand combat than the Assassin is, however, in terms of damage, the Assassin wins since he has an x7 multiplier instead of x5... and the poison as well, since it stacks.
With three points in dual wielding, your main hand THAC0 will still be lower than if you were using the weapon alone. Especially as a single class thief, you will need all the THAC0 you can get in order to get the first strike.
I can assure you that with smart use of magical items, you will have no problems soloing with the Kensai or with any of those classes, much less play through the game with a party.
I always thought of the damaging staves as those that martial artists use, very flexible and light, whereas the magical staves were more bulky and solid, having many knobs and keys to trigger their effects.
A Kensai/Thief is stronger in hand to hand combat than the Assassin is, however, in terms of damage, the Assassin wins since he has an x7 multiplier instead of x5... and the poison as well, since it stacks.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
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Space Invader
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Well, as I said I use mods so there are a lot of interesting katanas. But:Crenshinibon wrote:There is a reason for my low opinion of Katanas and that's because they generally have low modifiers for most of the game. There is ONE +4 Katana in the game (out of a total of four unique Katanas) and, unless you're a Kensai/Thief, you rely on that modifier for your guaranteed damage. Aside from that, daggers, shortswords and longswords tend to have more useful attributes attached to them, whereas the Katanas don't have anything overly useful, aside from Dak'kon's Zerth Blade, which is a weapon of for multi/dual class mages and bards.
In vanilla version: CF is always a good weap (excluding a few situation in ToB)
With mods: you have plenty of possibilities.
Emh... No. With 3 points your penality is +0 for the main hand and -2 for the 2nd oneCrenshinibon wrote:With three points in dual wielding, your main hand THAC0 will still be lower than if you were using the weapon alone.
Totally agree with you.Crenshinibon wrote:Especially as a single class thief, you will need all the THAC0 you can get in order to get the first strike.
I can assure you that with smart use of magical items, you will have no problems soloing with the Kensai or with any of those classes, much less play through the game with a party.
I always thought of the damaging staves as those that martial artists use, very flexible and light, whereas the magical staves were more bulky and solid, having many knobs and keys to trigger their effects.
Yeah but since he won't always be able to backstab, a kensai>thief is definitely more solid.Crenshinibon wrote:A Kensai/Thief is stronger in hand to hand combat than the Assassin is, however, in terms of damage, the Assassin wins since he has an x7 multiplier instead of x5... and the poison as well, since it stacks.
Not to talk about the usefulness of backstab in ToB.
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Rancid Sushi
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Space Invader
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For pretty early you mean at the end of BG1 from Slythe or trying to kill Renal in BG2?Rancid Sushi wrote:I'm partial to short swords myself. You can get the SS of Backstabbing +3 pretty early in the game. That's more than you can say for most weapon types.
At that point would be quicker to kill Drizzt for the scimitar+5, good for backstab and also grants 50 fire resistance
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Crenshinibon
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I personally don't like to use mods when I play, so I cannot comment on that, however, in late SoA and most of ToB, Celestial Fury's stun is no longer useful as almost everyone makes their save.
Thieves can only put one point into Two Weapon Style. As I said before, it matters more for them as they have bad THAC0 - the multiclass and dual class ones are fine.
Trust me on this - you can win almost all the fights by backstab - and if not, then by traps. I know my solo characters.
In ToB backstabs destroy mages anyway and with the Boots of Speed you can hit and run for the entire game - made even easier with the Staff of the Magi. When you absolutely do need to fight, the Assassin is more than capable of using a bow and his poison to demolish opponents.
In the vanilla BG, that Scimitar actually uses the "Large Sword" proficiency.
Thieves can only put one point into Two Weapon Style. As I said before, it matters more for them as they have bad THAC0 - the multiclass and dual class ones are fine.
Trust me on this - you can win almost all the fights by backstab - and if not, then by traps. I know my solo characters.
In ToB backstabs destroy mages anyway and with the Boots of Speed you can hit and run for the entire game - made even easier with the Staff of the Magi. When you absolutely do need to fight, the Assassin is more than capable of using a bow and his poison to demolish opponents.
In the vanilla BG, that Scimitar actually uses the "Large Sword" proficiency.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
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Space Invader
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Ofc I was referring to a possible Kensai>Thief talking about 3 points, for a plain Thief doesn't make sense to dual wield (unless you're a swashbuckler).
Ok, if we just consider vanilla it is possible to backstab your way to the end. I'm used to play with mages that spam pfmw/stone skin/mantle/etc with triggers/contingencies.
But even in the unmodded game it would be a slow play style which I personaly dislike. That's why I'd go for a more versatile char like a Kensai>Thief
Ps. Since I use Trilogy, like him, the scimitar has its own proficency
EDIT. I noticed he's going to use BGTutu, but it's almost the same
Ok, if we just consider vanilla it is possible to backstab your way to the end. I'm used to play with mages that spam pfmw/stone skin/mantle/etc with triggers/contingencies.
But even in the unmodded game it would be a slow play style which I personaly dislike. That's why I'd go for a more versatile char like a Kensai>Thief
Ps. Since I use Trilogy, like him, the scimitar has its own proficency
EDIT. I noticed he's going to use BGTutu, but it's almost the same
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Crenshinibon
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The reason I don't like Tutu is because I actually prefer the atmosphere of BG (the interface, item appearances and the paper dolls) more.
In my experience, a lot of the mages in both SoA and ToB have the same contingencies - which is why you either backstab or poison them - also, there are several weapons that dispell on hit.
In my experience, a lot of the mages in both SoA and ToB have the same contingencies - which is why you either backstab or poison them - also, there are several weapons that dispell on hit.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
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Space Invader
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Hehe I feel a bit of nostalgia too... But Trilogy is so practicle!
The only annoying part is fixing by yourself things like elemental arrows damage.
Btw, with mods like Tactics or SCSII, the most common string you read as a fighter is "Weapon ineffective"
And even switching from magical to normal weapon doesn't always help, since they really like Mantle/Improve Mantle/Absolute Immunity. If you add Spell Shield and Spell Immunities to the cocktail...well you can understand.
If I were you I'd give it a try, selecting carefully the best mods out there.
You can always come back if you don't like them
EDIT to stay in topic: considering the Kensai damage bonus and using Kai just before backstabbing the damage of Kensai>Thief should be quite close to the Assassin one. (I'm too lazy to calculate it)
The only annoying part is fixing by yourself things like elemental arrows damage.
Btw, with mods like Tactics or SCSII, the most common string you read as a fighter is "Weapon ineffective"
And even switching from magical to normal weapon doesn't always help, since they really like Mantle/Improve Mantle/Absolute Immunity. If you add Spell Shield and Spell Immunities to the cocktail...well you can understand.
If I were you I'd give it a try, selecting carefully the best mods out there.
You can always come back if you don't like them
EDIT to stay in topic: considering the Kensai damage bonus and using Kai just before backstabbing the damage of Kensai>Thief should be quite close to the Assassin one. (I'm too lazy to calculate it)
wow, what a great discussion, thanks everybody!
I started with both a Fighter/Thief MC and a Kensai to dual to Thief in BG2.
What became apparent was that it was much much easier with the Fighter/Thief, that's why I think I'm gonna go with the Kensai, with proficiencies in Katanas. It's hard, he has a difficult time hitting stuff (since there are only two Katanas in BG1Tutu, IIRC), and he doesn't have great AC so it's going to be a challenge to keep him alive, which I think only adds to the personality of the character, will make me rely more on NPCs and will keep things interesting for a longer time.
This character is more of a nobler rogue, so to speak. Although his job is to stick to shadows and kill without being seen, I'll try and keep him following a code of personal ethics, more of a Lawful Neutral deal.
On a next run I think I'm gonna go for an evil Half-Orc, Chaotic Evil Assassin. The complete opposite of this character, role-playing wise.
I started with both a Fighter/Thief MC and a Kensai to dual to Thief in BG2.
What became apparent was that it was much much easier with the Fighter/Thief, that's why I think I'm gonna go with the Kensai, with proficiencies in Katanas. It's hard, he has a difficult time hitting stuff (since there are only two Katanas in BG1Tutu, IIRC), and he doesn't have great AC so it's going to be a challenge to keep him alive, which I think only adds to the personality of the character, will make me rely more on NPCs and will keep things interesting for a longer time.
This character is more of a nobler rogue, so to speak. Although his job is to stick to shadows and kill without being seen, I'll try and keep him following a code of personal ethics, more of a Lawful Neutral deal.
On a next run I think I'm gonna go for an evil Half-Orc, Chaotic Evil Assassin. The complete opposite of this character, role-playing wise.
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Crenshinibon
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medeluxe: He's a very solid fighter even without a party - just keep an eye out for items that give you magical effects upon activation. In turn, not only will that give you ore utility, but also solve your current predicament.
cbarchuk: That's very nice of you to say, and I appreciate it, but I don't think that it would be overly interesting - there would be no surprise factor, since from the very start I know exactly where to go in order to get my top equipment as well as the other resources that I would need to use in order to survive select boss fights. That and I'm sure that no one wants to see me pause every two seconds. :laugh:
Nonetheless, it might be a fun project to try out the Enhanced Edition when it comes out. It might take a while since it would have to be an after-work activity for me.
cbarchuk: That's very nice of you to say, and I appreciate it, but I don't think that it would be overly interesting - there would be no surprise factor, since from the very start I know exactly where to go in order to get my top equipment as well as the other resources that I would need to use in order to survive select boss fights. That and I'm sure that no one wants to see me pause every two seconds. :laugh:
Nonetheless, it might be a fun project to try out the Enhanced Edition when it comes out. It might take a while since it would have to be an after-work activity for me.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
That maybe true but I'm starting a solo assassin playthrough right now and I would love your input on what equipment I should go for and in what order. I know I need the cloak of non-detection and boots of speed. But your input would be most appreciated since you're the master assassin around these parts. I just got out of chateau Irenicus.Crenshinibon wrote:medeluxe: He's a very solid fighter even without a party - just keep an eye out for items that give you magical effects upon activation. In turn, not only will that give you ore utility, but also solve your current predicament.
cbarchuk: That's very nice of you to say, and I appreciate it, but I don't think that it would be overly interesting - there would be no surprise factor, since from the very start I know exactly where to go in order to get my top equipment as well as the other resources that I would need to use in order to survive select boss fights. That and I'm sure that no one wants to see me pause every two seconds. :laugh:
Nonetheless, it might be a fun project to try out the Enhanced Edition when it comes out. It might take a while since it would have to be an after-work activity for me.
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Crenshinibon
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Unfortunately, I'm not the master Assassin here, so no need for flattery. Blades (or Bards in general) are my class of choice.
However, to answer your question, you should generally focus on items that improve your survivability (damage mitigation, means of escape) and those that increase your offensive ability (speed, offensive spells, weapons with high damage, weapons that add a lot to THAC0 and in general make of for your weaknesses). Try to think ahead and stock up for future encounters.
Right from the start, you can go and begin certain quests only to access their respective dungeons for easy to reach loot. One such example is the Watcher's Keep where you can pick up some very useful (and pricey) items without too much trouble.
SPOILER (Highlight to Read):
However, to answer your question, you should generally focus on items that improve your survivability (damage mitigation, means of escape) and those that increase your offensive ability (speed, offensive spells, weapons with high damage, weapons that add a lot to THAC0 and in general make of for your weaknesses). Try to think ahead and stock up for future encounters.
Right from the start, you can go and begin certain quests only to access their respective dungeons for easy to reach loot. One such example is the Watcher's Keep where you can pick up some very useful (and pricey) items without too much trouble.
SPOILER (Highlight to Read):
Spoiler
For best early game damage you want to try and get your hands on the Staff of Striking (1d6 + 9) in the Temple District. Keep in mind that this weapon does have charges and will need to be recharged just like a wand. You can do so by selling to the fence within the sewers.
I personally like something more sustainable, so I'd that you attempt to but the Shortsword of Mask +4 from the Watcher's Keep store. You should be able to get through the entire Watcher's Keep before the end of Chapter 2, so eventually, you'll want the Staff of the Ram +4.
For Ranged weapons the Tuigan Bow +1 is a good place to start, since it gives you three attacks right from the start. I personally like Darts since they give you an automatic five attacks per round, which becomes ten with an Improved Haste spell. That said, try to get the Ring of Gaxx - you don't have to fight him - just steal it from him and then quickly get out.
The thief stronghold quest is very easy to do during the early levels, so you can do that for some nice experience and decent equipment - some Shadow Armor and the Short Sword of Backstabbing to hold you over until you level enough to go into Stealth and stay in Stealth without any equipment bonuses and until you get your hands on the aforementioned weapons.
Don't forget to utilize your poison in fights - it deals a lot of damage and disrupts mages... note that you can use a larger dose of poison by applying to your weapon more than once. Also, be wary of demons - they can see right through your invisibility and stealth.
I personally like something more sustainable, so I'd that you attempt to but the Shortsword of Mask +4 from the Watcher's Keep store. You should be able to get through the entire Watcher's Keep before the end of Chapter 2, so eventually, you'll want the Staff of the Ram +4.
For Ranged weapons the Tuigan Bow +1 is a good place to start, since it gives you three attacks right from the start. I personally like Darts since they give you an automatic five attacks per round, which becomes ten with an Improved Haste spell. That said, try to get the Ring of Gaxx - you don't have to fight him - just steal it from him and then quickly get out.
The thief stronghold quest is very easy to do during the early levels, so you can do that for some nice experience and decent equipment - some Shadow Armor and the Short Sword of Backstabbing to hold you over until you level enough to go into Stealth and stay in Stealth without any equipment bonuses and until you get your hands on the aforementioned weapons.
Don't forget to utilize your poison in fights - it deals a lot of damage and disrupts mages... note that you can use a larger dose of poison by applying to your weapon more than once. Also, be wary of demons - they can see right through your invisibility and stealth.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
Thanks for the tip Cren. The assassin solo is a much slower game but intense at the same time since I have to actually think about how I'm going to handle a situation. One of the worst levels I'm thinking of for a solo assassin is the 3rd level of watcher's keep. All those demons absolutely suck. How would deal with that level? Are demon's immune to poison?
I did complete Tatics recently with a solo Fighter/thief/mage specialized in 2 weapons. Had to kite a lot during the beginning of the game (since you only have access to level 3 spell at the beginning) but it got better when you got out of the first dungeon and then get access to stoneskin and other protective spells. Backstab x5 is great and when you got to level 13 of the fighter (for me, it was mid of the game, using Belm and Celestial Fury + improved haste (level 6 mage spell), i had 10 attacks a round...adding that to Spell Immunity level 5 spell, stone skin, mirror image...and Hide in the shadow...I think that class is a bit OP. I'm still amazed how people can complete the game without cleric/mage spell...maybe i should try someday.