I've decided not to import my Pool of Radiance team into the later games, mostly because of the ridiculous level limitations on demihumans and the addition of paladins and rangers.
My main questions are:
1: What is a good ratio of fighters to casters in a party intended to go through the rest of the series from here?
2: Is it necessary to dual class in order to be powerful enough to complete the later games?
3: Assuming I did dual class, how should I go about it?
I really do not want a squishy wizard considering the combat system this game uses. I tried a thief/mage in Pool of Radiance and restarted in the middle of the slums because it was so difficult to really protect a single 1 hit point wonder even with 5 fighters. Nothing really stops 50 orcs from getting to the wizard and cutting him to pieces. I'm sure they get some high level protection spells to help with this later in the series, but somehow I doubt they will be even a fraction as invincible and powerful as they are in the real-time-with-pause Infinity Engine games. In any case, I would prefer all of my characters to be able to wear armor and use weapons if only to make the early stages less painful.
With this in mind, should I start everyone as a melee class and dual a couple of characters to a caster class as soon as the game starts? I could also wait until level 9 if, as in BG2, HP gains suddenly drop at that point.
Curse of the Azure Bonds party advice
We have a party recommendation for Curse that you can find [url='http://www.gamebanshee.com/curseoftheazurebonds/walkthrough/partycreation.php']here[/url]. It looks like a lot of dual- and multi-classing for the casters. Unfortunately, Curse was the last game we covered, so I have no idea what's best for continuing past it.
SWC
SWC
Sir Edmund: "Should you obey the lord who asks you to put a village of innocents to the torch? Is that chivalrous? Is it noble?"
Me: "It's a great way to get promoted, I know that much."
Me: "It's a great way to get promoted, I know that much."
1. In Pools of Darkness you need 2 Magic Users, 2 Clerics and 1 Thief. They should be dualclasses, of course. The others can be pure warriors or you can dual them too if you want to have more spellcasters.
2. You surely need to dual your chars. Having multiclass chars in PoD is a very bad idea. I know it exactly - I tried it.
3. You'd better dual your chars in Secret of the Silver Blades instead of Curse of the Azure Bonds if you want to have a really good party in PoD. 9th level is not very good for dualling. Paladin and Fighter get the top number of attacks on 13th level, Ranger - on 15th level. It's a good time to dual them, but they reach those levels only in SotSB. You can play CotAB with some multiclasses and then change them for humans in SotSB. IMHO the only character that is good for duallind in CotAB is C9->MU.
Ranger->MU can wear armor. You can't have more than 3 rangers in your party. There are good protective gloves, rings etc. for MU, so you can have one well-protected Paladin->MU or Fighter->MU if you'd like to.
2. You surely need to dual your chars. Having multiclass chars in PoD is a very bad idea. I know it exactly - I tried it.
3. You'd better dual your chars in Secret of the Silver Blades instead of Curse of the Azure Bonds if you want to have a really good party in PoD. 9th level is not very good for dualling. Paladin and Fighter get the top number of attacks on 13th level, Ranger - on 15th level. It's a good time to dual them, but they reach those levels only in SotSB. You can play CotAB with some multiclasses and then change them for humans in SotSB. IMHO the only character that is good for duallind in CotAB is C9->MU.
Ranger->MU can wear armor. You can't have more than 3 rangers in your party. There are good protective gloves, rings etc. for MU, so you can have one well-protected Paladin->MU or Fighter->MU if you'd like to.
Thank you both very much.
Sounds like I better redo my team a bit; I'm at the entrance to the sewers with a party of a paladin, ranger, 3 fighters, and a cleric. I'll switch out two of the fighters for rangers, or alternatively just do what I did in Pool and change parties again in the sequel. That way I don't have to worry much about HP rolls till Blades.
Are thieves ever remotely useful in these gold box games? The trend seems to be to have some small, insignificant alternate path or hint, etc. that only thieves can get to, but otherwise it looks like it's generally a waste of a team slot.
Sounds like I better redo my team a bit; I'm at the entrance to the sewers with a party of a paladin, ranger, 3 fighters, and a cleric. I'll switch out two of the fighters for rangers, or alternatively just do what I did in Pool and change parties again in the sequel. That way I don't have to worry much about HP rolls till Blades.
Are thieves ever remotely useful in these gold box games? The trend seems to be to have some small, insignificant alternate path or hint, etc. that only thieves can get to, but otherwise it looks like it's generally a waste of a team slot.
Yes, it's a wise decision. You lose nothing. Equipment can't be transferred from CotAB to SotSB. Newly created characters will have more HP if you don't want to care of this in CotAB. But I can't imagine playing CotAB without magic users. You need at least one.Blomdor wrote:or alternatively just do what I did in Pool and change parties again in the sequel. That way I don't have to worry much about HP rolls till Blades.
You can freely play CotAB without a thief, you'll miss nothing, but an insignificant event at the beginning of the game. But you can't play SotSB (and PoD) without a high-level thief, there are a lot of locked chests there. You can transfer a good warrior from CotAB and quickly dual him to thief on level 13/15. And you'd better to prepare the whole party for transferring from SotSB to PoD. Dualling newly created characters in PoD can be problematic. Besides, all equipment can be transferred from SotSB to PoD.Blomdor wrote:Are thieves ever remotely useful in these gold box games? The trend seems to be to have some small, insignificant alternate path or hint, etc. that only thieves can get to, but otherwise it looks like it's generally a waste of a team slot.
In CotAB there's only one location where you get an extra option for having a thief (climb up and look) and all you get is an useless hint. The power of thieves (and especially fighter/thieves) is backstabbing and doing lots of damage this way.
If you want to dual a warrior to mage starting with 9 paladin/fighter or 10 ranger levels yields the most hitpoints but you don't have to wait that long, you'll want to be able to enjoy spellcasting long before the game is over.
If you want to dual a warrior to mage starting with 9 paladin/fighter or 10 ranger levels yields the most hitpoints but you don't have to wait that long, you'll want to be able to enjoy spellcasting long before the game is over.
Thanks again people, it's cool that there are still some old RPGers around here that have played these.
I really hope that helplessness does not amount to a OHKO in later games. It's really a bit lame that Pool can be made into a total cakewalk with a level 2 cleric spell, and frustrating when stinking cloud, etc. is used against your own party in Azure Bonds. Save-or-be-screwed spells are bothersome by nature but adding instadeath to the mix lends too much power to low level, easily spammable abilities IMO. Granted, it's realistic, but realism /= fun. Just a minor beef, though; the games thus far have been excellent anyway.
I really hope that helplessness does not amount to a OHKO in later games. It's really a bit lame that Pool can be made into a total cakewalk with a level 2 cleric spell, and frustrating when stinking cloud, etc. is used against your own party in Azure Bonds. Save-or-be-screwed spells are bothersome by nature but adding instadeath to the mix lends too much power to low level, easily spammable abilities IMO. Granted, it's realistic, but realism /= fun. Just a minor beef, though; the games thus far have been excellent anyway.
Dualling to mage from warrior on level 9/10 is not bad because this character won't have to fight much. He always has a lot of magic work. Clerics, on the contrary, better dual on level 13/15. They are more figthers than spellcasters.
Blomdor, the game is difficult. Who told it was easy? Use Stinking Cloud, Hold Person and Silence yourself. Use Dispel Magic to rescue your helpless chars. You can watch some let's plays on YouTube to see effective tactics in the most difficult battles.
Blomdor, the game is difficult. Who told it was easy? Use Stinking Cloud, Hold Person and Silence yourself. Use Dispel Magic to rescue your helpless chars. You can watch some let's plays on YouTube to see effective tactics in the most difficult battles.
Yes, the let's plays on Youtube were very helpful. I had to watch quite a few just to figure out how to mess with certain things, use certain items, etc.
The first game actually was quite easygoing on me, actually. Hopefully CotAB steps up the difficulty if anything. Hold spells have only caused one reload so far and that was due to me not knowing that ranged attacks are as deadly as melee when a character is helpless.
I'm beginning to think that every RPG is contractually required to have a sewer level...
The first game actually was quite easygoing on me, actually. Hopefully CotAB steps up the difficulty if anything. Hold spells have only caused one reload so far and that was due to me not knowing that ranged attacks are as deadly as melee when a character is helpless.
I'm beginning to think that every RPG is contractually required to have a sewer level...
All but one of my bonds is gone now (is it wrong that I find the way the Zhentarim guy meets his end sort of funny? What a moron). I have not revised my opinion of disabling spells and in fact my number one cause of reloads by far, including a fight against about a dozen black dragons at low levels, is these priests that cast hold person. Not even mages, just the priests. I always carry dispel magic, but it's not uncommon that the melee goons shielding the priests get a turn before my cleric does. I'm curious how you protected against it. It's certainly not been unbeatable, but I have more than once lost a character to a hold spell immediately followed by a melee attack, giving me no opportunity to even begin to cast dispel magic.
Just to clarify: I always try to avoid spells like raise dead in CRPGs. Something about them bugs me. If all it takes to bring a fighter back from the dead after being used as a chew toy by a black dragon is a level 5 cleric spell, why is it a big deal when *insert important person here* dies? Why can't I raise my PC in Baldur's Gate if everyone else can take an axe to the face without issue? Why can't I drag the thief who helps you at the start of Curse to some temple to repay him for his assistance? It raises too many questions like that, so to preserve my suspension of disbelief I simply ignore such spells. It's the closest thing I do to roleplaying. If I seem overly bothered by instadeath, that's the reason.
Since I'm jabbering anyway, what's your recommendation on this optional Beholder Corps fight I've heard about? It's not worth doing if I have to use the Dust of Disappearance, IMO, unless it's still a challenging fight somehow. I had my fill of chopping up helpless beholders with AI problems in Baldur's Gate 2.
Just to clarify: I always try to avoid spells like raise dead in CRPGs. Something about them bugs me. If all it takes to bring a fighter back from the dead after being used as a chew toy by a black dragon is a level 5 cleric spell, why is it a big deal when *insert important person here* dies? Why can't I raise my PC in Baldur's Gate if everyone else can take an axe to the face without issue? Why can't I drag the thief who helps you at the start of Curse to some temple to repay him for his assistance? It raises too many questions like that, so to preserve my suspension of disbelief I simply ignore such spells. It's the closest thing I do to roleplaying. If I seem overly bothered by instadeath, that's the reason.
Since I'm jabbering anyway, what's your recommendation on this optional Beholder Corps fight I've heard about? It's not worth doing if I have to use the Dust of Disappearance, IMO, unless it's still a challenging fight somehow. I had my fill of chopping up helpless beholders with AI problems in Baldur's Gate 2.
It's not worth fighting the beholders, there's no reward involved, it's just an additional crazy challenge if you are bored, you can get XP far easier by exploring the optional dungeons or fighting other respawning stuff.
I never use raise dead in the goldbox games, it reduces con by 1 permanently.
The most effective way to keep priests from casting hold person is roasting them with fireballs (it's essential for the later gold box games to learn how to aim them), casting prayer and other spells before the battle to improve saving throws won't hurt either. If your mage isn't the first to act you can have your priest cast hold person or silence at them or your warriors shoot at them, casters cannot cast when they took damage before in that round.
I never use raise dead in the goldbox games, it reduces con by 1 permanently.
The most effective way to keep priests from casting hold person is roasting them with fireballs (it's essential for the later gold box games to learn how to aim them), casting prayer and other spells before the battle to improve saving throws won't hurt either. If your mage isn't the first to act you can have your priest cast hold person or silence at them or your warriors shoot at them, casters cannot cast when they took damage before in that round.
kmonster wrote:casters cannot cast when they took damage before in that round.
O_O
This whole time, for two or three weeks straight of many-hours-a-day play, I have wondered why my fighter/mages are sometimes unable to cast spells after moving towards a more advantageous spellcasting position. This is extremely helpful. Thanks tons!
I went ahead and killed off the Beholder Corps because the dungeon it's in is very small and easy to get through, and it's against my nature to leave a stone unturned in a CRPG. It was even easier than I figured it would be though, because drow lords are more susceptible to fireball than I imagined. You can get them all to 20-40 hp or less with well placed fireballs. I had the impression from the dracolich cave that they were almost immune...maybe partial spell resistance is easier to penetrate with levels?
I wanted to do it without resorting to the magic fairy dust, but honestly saw no way to survive a single round without gratuitous abuse of tactics like forcing the beholders to gnaw on me instead of gazing, which is hardly more interesting or fair and likely impossible still due to the rakshasas and priests in the back. But it's done, and I can now finish with a 100% completed game.
There's nothing left to do besides beat up Big T again unless I absolutely must reach max levels for some reason.
Thanks to both of you for your help, I would probably be trying to do this without magic users, missing the healing potions, and facedesking constantly if you hadn't given me the heads up. Here's hoping SotSB is as cool as the rest of the series has been.
EDIT: I did it!
The last boss fight was...interesting. I forgot to memorize any buffs besides prayer before running into the temple and, of course, saving, so I was stuck fighting Big T and his enormous army of goons without haste, without enlarge, without bless, nothing except the +1 THAC0 or whatever from Prayer. It took a few reloads; if Big T bolted my casters before they could fireball (1 in 4 times?), it was game over, and even when the fight went entirely my way it came down to my paladin and ranger on their last legs holding on for dear life against a near-death Big T and a few margoyles. None of my characters were even max level.
Still glad I didn't waste time grinding. This was actually one of the funnest boss fights I've had in a long time because it was so close.
I wanted to do it without resorting to the magic fairy dust, but honestly saw no way to survive a single round without gratuitous abuse of tactics like forcing the beholders to gnaw on me instead of gazing, which is hardly more interesting or fair and likely impossible still due to the rakshasas and priests in the back. But it's done, and I can now finish with a 100% completed game.
There's nothing left to do besides beat up Big T again unless I absolutely must reach max levels for some reason.
Thanks to both of you for your help, I would probably be trying to do this without magic users, missing the healing potions, and facedesking constantly if you hadn't given me the heads up. Here's hoping SotSB is as cool as the rest of the series has been.
EDIT: I did it!
The last boss fight was...interesting. I forgot to memorize any buffs besides prayer before running into the temple and, of course, saving, so I was stuck fighting Big T and his enormous army of goons without haste, without enlarge, without bless, nothing except the +1 THAC0 or whatever from Prayer. It took a few reloads; if Big T bolted my casters before they could fireball (1 in 4 times?), it was game over, and even when the fight went entirely my way it came down to my paladin and ranger on their last legs holding on for dear life against a near-death Big T and a few margoyles. None of my characters were even max level.
Still glad I didn't waste time grinding. This was actually one of the funnest boss fights I've had in a long time because it was so close.
My congratulations 
And some advices for Blades:
1. Don't sell gems at the beginning of the game, you need them. There is a bank, you can deposit money, gems and items there.
2. If you find a locked chest and don't have a thief yet, you can remove one of your chars from party, create a thief, add him to party, open chest and then change chars back. Save before and after changing on different slots. Removed chars sometimes disappear, I don't know why.
3. NPC Vala will join your party in the middle of the game (you can refuse) and will stay with you till the end of the game. Since now you have to do double work: to fight with enemies and to protect this stupid creature from death. The problem is that you can't control her. She adores rushing to those areas where you just selected to cast fireball. She is cool and fun though. I gave her a magical bow (she didn't like a common one, too noble for it).
4. Transfer a lot of good arrows to PoD.
And some advices for Blades:1. Don't sell gems at the beginning of the game, you need them. There is a bank, you can deposit money, gems and items there.
2. If you find a locked chest and don't have a thief yet, you can remove one of your chars from party, create a thief, add him to party, open chest and then change chars back. Save before and after changing on different slots. Removed chars sometimes disappear, I don't know why.
3. NPC Vala will join your party in the middle of the game (you can refuse) and will stay with you till the end of the game. Since now you have to do double work: to fight with enemies and to protect this stupid creature from death. The problem is that you can't control her. She adores rushing to those areas where you just selected to cast fireball. She is cool and fun though. I gave her a magical bow (she didn't like a common one, too noble for it).
4. Transfer a lot of good arrows to PoD.