NWN2: Handy with the tongue sword

[Myrr Disparo]

So, I've come up with a concept for a character and I have a couple options for how to actually implement her into the rules. That said, I look up to you, Gamebanshee forum-dwellers (specially Scottg who seems to be the Neverwinter Nights 2 build guru around this parts), for help and counsel. With that out of the way, here goes.

The concept
Well, she is a diplomatic envoy of some sort. She is more at home at a hallroom meeting, or a tense negotiation, than in an open battlefield, so, when possible, she likes to defuse situations with the minimal amount of violence. However, when the other shoe inevitably drops, she relies more on brute strength and huge weapons than on any real skill with them. A dwarf would be the ideal race, but, sadly, I can't find any way for them to conform to the concept. Mechanically, that means I want to maximize, at the very least, Lore, Diplomacy and Spellcraft (she has picked a couple magical tricks along the road, that help her be more prepared and capable), and have high Bluff, if at all possible. Her alignment would veer towards chaotic good, but I plan to play the OC and MotB, so maybe I'll end up nearer the lawful end of the spectrum. I also don't want to play her as a caster. She may cast spells, of course, since the class permits it, and it makes sense that she may have picked up some magic tricks from prior experiences, but I want it to be strictly low-key, buffing and controlling mostly. I'd allow for Wail of the Banshee, but only to be used very sparsely. My rationale is that the WotB'd be a trick used taught to diplomats to be used as a last resort measure if things are going very badly, but it shouldn't be used carelessly, lest it become foreseeable, and their usefulness compromised.
That said, there are a couple ways we can do this, and the choice is yours (say that in your best Socucious Ergalla impression)

Alternative A: The Piercing Tongue
Rock gnome, chaotic good, 23 bard/ X Red Dragon Disciple / maybe something else
Ability scores:
Str 13 (+remaining level ups, +4 RDD upgrades). Should be a minimum of 20, +5 modifier
Dex X
Con 16
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 16 (+2 level ups, , 18, enough to get Hymn of Requiem at 23 bard levels)
Feats (in no particular order): Lingering song, Song of Requiem, Hymn of Requiem, Power Attack, Improved Power Attack, Cleave, Greater Cleave, weapon focus:rapier(?), Curse Song(?)
I'm actually not sure about Curse Song. It seems to me SoR would make that feat largely redundant, but then again, I'd get that at 21 at the earliest, and probably much later, since I'd be putting the RDD levels somewhere in between to boost STR. And it's an incredibly good feat, no matter if SoR is even better.
Skills:
Max: Lore, Diplomacy, Spellcraft
High (at least at every bard level): Tumble (at the very least, 20, because 30 seems unfeasible/too expensive to be worth pursuing) Concentration to 23 for auto-defensive casting, Perform for Hymn of Requiem and to boost inspirations, Bluff and the rest in Use Magic Device (probably 6 o 7 points. Largely useless)
So, she is a rock bard. Rock gnome bard, rock bard. I know, I know, I just couldn't resist. For being a character largely based on a pun, I like how this one came out. Among the most skilled in the diplomatic corps of her realm, the Piercing Tongues have seen a little bit of everything, done a lot of everything questionable and lived to tell the (largely embellished) tale.
However, there's a couple things I'm not so sure about. First, since she is a small race, she wields rapiers and other medium weapons as two-handed weapons, which is already a rather humorous image, worthy of the rather unorthodox build. My question is, does she get 1.5 enhacement per point of strength modifier when doing this? Do Power Attack and Improved Power Attack benefit from doing so? Also, when it comes to Red Dragon Disciple Levels, do I take 4 levels of RDD, losing a point of BAB, but gaining 2 points of attack and 2 of damage from strength modifiers, and then 3 of a high BAB class? I'd probably have to take Able learner, then, and I'm already starved for feats, but I guess I could lose Weapon Focus: Rapier, without any issue, specially since the benefit would then be reaped from the high BAB class anyway, and for all weapons, not just rapiers. or should I take the full 7 levels of RDD and gain the delicious, delicious Blindfight at level 5? It's a great feat, I'd take it anyway, and I'm already hurting to find places for more feats.

Alternative B: The negotiator:
Human (half-orc would be even-better, but probably not viable), chaotic good, 2 bard (to qualify for RDD, unlock Lore, Diplomacy and Spellcraft as class skills, and the attack bonus inspiration for 1 extra point of damage, or 4 bard, level 2 spells, namely a veeeeeeeeeeery short Bull's Strength, to be cast without armor before entering the fray. Largely useless)/X Fighter (Barbarian is also possible, even if it strains the concept a bit)/ 10 RDD (+8 Str, me likey)
Ability scores:
Str 16/18 (+every level up, +8 RDD upgrades, for crazy delicious damage dealing hypothetical capability)
Dex 10 (maybe even 8. I plan on going VERY armored)
Con X
Int 10/12
Wis 8
Cha 12/14 if 4 bard, for the extra level 2 spell
Skills: Maximize Lore, Persuade and Diplomacy. Fuck Bluff. Bluff is for the weak-willed, anyway, and she has no time for subtleties anyway. She has mob wars to stop.
Feats: Since she is taking so many fighter levels, she can go a little crazy with the feat selection. Able learner is a must, obviously, but other than that, any feat regarding greatswords (or, for a non-optimal, but far more rewarding alternative, warhammers), but not the criticals feats, as I said, she is no skilled swordswoman, she just wants to hack or bludgeon her enemies to a fine paste, so she may live to try again.
So, this one's concept is pretty clear, no nuances about it: she looks like something out of an 80's cop serial. Despised as a maverick for her methods, she's regardless the best when the unexpected happens. Living on stimulants and large helpings of cynicism, she gets dispatched to defuse the most dangerous situations, only to find herself thurst upon ever more entangled complications when the last one has been overcome. All in a day's work for the negotiator.

So, what do you think? Are they viable? Which one is better? Do you have any tips on how to improve them without breaking character? Any help would be welcome! Have fun tearing them apart! And thanks for reading.

[Scottg]

Whoa - definitely time to start using the NWN2 builder site.. makes visualizing it a LOT easier.

The Negotiator is the better build.. it isn't "bi-polar", instead it's just a melee'er with a Bard class pick-up. That allows you to concentrate on those areas that will make it a better melee'er. 2 levels of Bard and no more. Concentrate on Strength.

IF you want a real Bard then you need virtually all of those levels as a Bard (..or at least virtually all of those levels in the OC). At a minimum 17 levels of Bard for the OC. That provides at least one spell in the 5th level spell grouping and 22 in Sonic damage for each Curse Song to all opponents in a colossal area (provided your Perform skill is 30 or more). (..level 20 + 50 in perform cranks it 28 in damage.) Of course note that damage isn't the only thing that Curse Song does.
Note: Lingering Song is generally a waste because you have so many Bard Song castings at higher levels and can always "sing" it over again. You need at least 21 Bard levels for Song of Requiem - and the sooner you get them the sooner you have that Song. ("Hymn" is 23?) Both are extremely powerful.

IF you front load those Bard levels then it's as good (or potentially better than) the Negotiator build. Concentrate on Charisma and Perform skill. Curse song at level 9.

Note: One of the better "pick-up" classes for a Bard is a Cleric at a level where you have access to a Feat selection. Then you can further leverage your Charisma modifier for Divine Shield (say level 6) and Divine Might (say level 15). You ALSO get access to domains which can have some nice additional feats like Evasion or Feint (see below).

Note: Human is the better race for the added feat at start-up, the additional skill point at each level, and the one-handed use of medium weapon.


Other-wise (non-Bard) use as few Bard levels as possible (..generally).

Note that Bluff is nearly as useful a dialog skill in the OC as Diplomacy (though still not as good). HOWEVER it's an excellent skill for a Feint-type character. Feint's are a good way of lowering most opponents AC scores. About the only exception in the OC is the optional Red Dragon (..which has a Spot skill so high that you can't Feint it).


BOTH builds should make use of a Shield (..because at higher levels in the OC you can enchant a lot of AC into it). This requires one-handed use of a weapon which precludes a rapier in a small race like Rock Gnome (unless you Monkey Grip and that wastes both a feat and -2 to attack). The exception to using a Shield is melee-type build with 5 levels of Frenzied Berserker.


Final Note: Kaedrins can add a lot of diversity to the Bard class with various Prestige classes.

[Myrr Disparo]

Wow, that was a hasty reply! Thanks!

IF you want a real Bard then you need virtually all of those levels as a Bard (..or at least virtually all of those levels in the OC). At a minimum 17 levels of Bard for the OC. That provides at least one spell in the 5th level spell grouping and 22 in Sonic damage for each Curse Song to all opponents in a colossal area (provided your Perform skill is 30 or more). (..level 20 + 50 in perform cranks it 28 in damage.) Of course note that damage isn't the only thing that Curse Song does.
Note: Lingering Song is generally a waste because you have so many Bard Song castings at higher levels and can always "sing" it over again. You need at least 21 Bard levels for Song of Requiem - and the sooner you get them the sooner you have that Song. ("Hymn" is 23?) Both are extremely powerful.

So, if I do take the Piercing Tongue route, it should be charisma over strength to reap the most benefits (maybe 1 point for the +2 modifier if I take 13 strength?). That strays from concept quite a bit, but I still prefer them over the negotiator. Hymn is not 23, but bards get a bonus feat at 23. I planned to get Hymn with that.
Any useful feats I should know about? What more should I drop, other than Lingering Song? Wouldn't a full bard be very caster-heavy? No Spellcaster Prodigy background, then? I'm okay with songs, but I'm not a big fan of spells, for some reason.

Note: One of the better "pick-up" classes for a Bard is a Cleric at a level where you have access to a Feat selection. Then you can further leverage your Charisma modifier for Divine Shield (say level 6) and Divine Might (say level 15). You ALSO get access to domains which can have some nice additional feats like Evasion or Feint (see below).

That's... Interesting. Problem is, I hate Clerics. Like, hate them. Arcane magic, I can work with, if relunctantly. Divine magic bothers me, for some reason. But I'll keep it in mind. Since I always take a God to worship anyway (I was planning on Liira for this particular one), I'd say it, at the very least, makes sense. Besides, it's a fire and forget ability for difficult fights, so it's workable. It delays SoR further, but well, your advice tends to be sound.

Note: Human is the better race for the added feat at start-up, the additional skill point at each level, and the one-handed use of medium weapon.

I know gnome is sub-optimal, but I'm kind of tired of playing humans, and I wanted a different experience this time around. Besides, I really wanted to play a small race, and gnomes get bard as their favored class.
However, is [url='http://nwn2db.com/build/?113897']this[/url] more or less what you had in mind for a full bard build?

Note that Bluff is nearly as useful a dialog skill in the OC as Diplomacy (though still not as good). HOWEVER it's an excellent skill for a Feint-type character. Feint's are a good way of lowering most opponents AC scores. About the only exception in the OC is the optional Red Dragon (..which has a Spot skill so high that you can't Feint it).

This I didn't know. I'll keep it in mind.

BOTH builds should make use of a Shield (..because at higher levels in the OC you can enchant a lot of AC into it). This requires one-handed use of a weapon which precludes a rapier in a small race like Rock Gnome (unless you Monkey Grip and that wastes both a feat and -2 to attack). The exception to using a Shield is melee-type build with 5 levels of Frenzied Berserker.

This, I didn't know. And it puts a serious kink in my design. I was firmly fixated on using a two-handed weapon, to represent the clumsiness of a trained diplomat. A sword and shield style seems to me something a trained warrior would inmediately go for, but a novice would have serious trouble with it. On the other hand, don't shields disrupt spellcasting? Maybe I should be back to the drawing board. And a frenzied berserker... Uhmmm. That's hard to mold into the concept. Maybe I should rethink the whole thing through

[Scottg]

Yes, your build as shown is pretty good.

Changes I'd make are:

Background Feat: Tale Teller for the added Bluff point. (EDITED)

Human: 17 Strength, 14 Constitution, 17 Charisma. Start 1 in Strength (level 4), the rest in Charisma.

Gnome: 15 Strength, 13 Constitution, 18 Charisma. Start 1 in Strength (level 4), the rest in Charisma.

3rd level feat should be Divine Shield. This build will need AC improvements more than damage at these lower levels. At higher levels (with enchanted items you make) you'll have additional AC. The downside here is -1 to attack early on and 1 level delay for your first level spells. You could "flip" this with 6th level selection. On the other hand you also get Feint with the Cleric at this level which makes it easier to hit opponents with an improved Bluff skill.

6th level feat should be Extend Spell. This "powers" the build. It makes your buff spells last enough for one battle at lower levels. Later, it makes them last long enough so that you don't have to buff before every battle (..and instead can spend that time with Divine Shield/Might).

9th level feat should be Curse Song. (..Curse Song won't start damaging opponents until 8 levels of Bard - which is at 9th level because of the Cleric level at level 3.)

12th level feat Improved Critical Rapier. (..Gnome - Cleave.)

15th level feat Great Cleave (..at this point you have enough damage for added cleaves derived from enchanted weapons and attribute enhancing items).

18th level feat Divine Might (at this point most of your buff spells will all be so extended that you don't need to spend time on most buffs except for Divine Might/Shield).

Get Bard up to level 21 (..character level 23) to unlock Song of Requiem.

THEN transfer over to 4 RDD levels if you want to go for Epic Divine Might. Probably 2 levels of FB for Supreme Cleave and then back to Bard.

Note: I would NOT select any skill focus feat. Your Charisma modifier is usually good enough for Perform, + you can also use items that increase this skill.


Note: A Bard is a mostly a "Buff" melee'er. It's spells just aren't offensive.



IF you want to go with a small race then you should drop Improved Critical from the list and make your adjustment from there. ALTERNATIVLY you could go with Strongheart Halfling, and either ditch the Cleric levels or put up with modest XP penalty. Either Gnome or Halfling should wield a Shortsword.

[Myrr Disparo]

Background Feat: Tale Teller for the added Perform point.

Does Tale Teller improve perform? It's Bluff and Lore on the description.
I see your point about the rest. I'll adjust them accordingly.

IF you want to go with a small race then you should drop Improved Critical from the list and make your adjustment from there. ALTERNATIVLY you could go with Strongheart Halfling, and either ditch the Cleric levels or put up with modest XP penalty. Either Gnome or Halfling should wield a Shortsword.

I'd actually like to try my hand with a small race, so I'll probably try a Gnome. Besides, dropping Improved Critical fits the clumsy wielder better. If it doesn't work with the NWN2 builder, I'll fall back to human. Thanks for all the help, Scottg. Wish me luck! I'll keep you guys posted on progress, if it goes well

[Scottg]

Does Tale Teller improve perform? It's Bluff and Lore on the description.
I see your point about the rest. I'll adjust them accordingly.

I'd actually like to try my hand with a small race, so I'll probably try a Gnome. Besides, dropping Improved Critical fits the clumsy wielder better. If it doesn't work with the NWN2 builder, I'll fall back to human. Thanks for all the help, Scottg. Wish me luck! I'll keep you guys posted on progress, if it goes well

OOPs meant Bluff. (see full Edit above.)

Good Luck!

Remember to have Inspire Courage on for melee OR Inspire Competence for Feint based melee, and Inspire Competence on for Songs and Dialog (and sometimes Feint). Don't forget to move your Feint feat (on the character sheet) over to the button bar at the bottom of the screen. Use the Feint feat most of the time - it should keep you from missing at those early levels (with Inspire Competence "ON").

Fascinate Song is a good opening round "attack" for a Bard as long as opponents are capable of being "Dazed" (..i.e. don't have a mental immunity).

Note: Choose your spells VERY CAREFULLY.

[Myrr Disparo]

Human: 17 Strength, 14 Constitution, 17 Charisma. Start 1 in Strength (level 4), the rest in Charisma.

Gnome: 15 Strength, 13 Constitution, 18 Charisma. Start 1 in Strength (level 4), the rest in Charisma.

Thanks again for further clarification, but I'm not so sure about this Ability scores. Neglecting Int completely comes out short on skill points, specially with 2 added levels of Frenzied Berserker, at 1 point per level. Or is there something I'm missing?

Note: Choose your spells VERY CAREFULLY.

Heh, will do. I think I'll try my hand at spell selection later, for now it's time to go to bed. Will update with my choices as they happen. You'll get to see a character go from enjoyable to completely unplayable in slow motion! Cherish the oportunity!

[Scottg]

Thanks again for further clarification, but I'm not so sure about this Ability scores. Neglecting Int completely comes out short on skill points, specially with 2 added levels of Frenzied Berserker, at 1 point per level. Is there something I'm missing?

Yeah, I never "touched on" skills beyond Bluff and Perform.

It's yet another reason to prefer a Human.

OK, with a Gnome you'll have 5 points on average to spend: Bluff, Concentration, Listen, and Perform should be those "maxed" skills (..except for Listen to get the figures you need in the other skills at the correct time). The other point will be used as "fill in" for non Bard levels and for distribution with: Diplomacy and UMD.



Diplomacy - only needs 15 *net* for the OC at level 12. You'll have a +5 from your *base* Charisma modifier + likely another 2 points from a +4 Nymph cloak by this time. From there you'll only need another 3 points from items. It's of almost no use in MOTB. Unfortunatly Spellcraft is (for dialog), but you have other needs here and it's not deal-breaker.

UMD will be *desired* latter in the game where you'll want to use high level spells from scrolls. It's not really important for a Bard at lower levels. ALSO it makes use of your Charisma modifier.

Tumble is very nice, but again - you have Divine Shield and other sources of protection.

Lore doesn't need to be added to until Epic levels for your RDD class - and only 8 then.


..and yes, this is strained.


Obviously place no points into non-class skills (i.e. only Concentration when on a Cleric level.. and maybe Diplomacy)


You could go Gnome: 15 Strength/14 Constitution/10 Intelligence/16 Charisma.. that would give you one extra Skill point on average. (..you might need to add-in an extra point to Diplomacy however.)



Also don't forget motto: Save Early, Save OFTEN.

[Myrr Disparo]

Also don't forget motto: Save Early, Save OFTEN.

Hahaha, don't worry, I'm an RPG vet. I have that sentence framed and hanged on the wall