"Good" Thac0?

NocturneN · Post by **NocturneN** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:46 am

I'm curios as to how high one's Thac0 should be to be viable in ToB. I'm looking at my Kensai/Mage, which currently has 2 MH and 5 OH. If I find a couple of fancy +4 swords it would be 1, 4, and if I don the Girdle of Ogre Strength it goes as low as -1, 2. Now that may be fine in SoA, but it doesn't seem like there's any way for me to get it lower than that and characters like Minsc are already beginning to surpass my MC's Thac0. I'd imagine there'd be alot of difficult-to-hit creatures the further you progress, and I'm not really certain if it will be enough. So, I wonder, what is "good" thac0 in the later stages of the game? How low does it need to be in order to consistently hit enemies in ToB?

roller1234 · Post by **roller1234** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:38 am

With ToB installed, dual classes got quite nerved. But if your kensai is dualed at level 13, and i hope its level 13, then with more than 2 stars in a weapon proficiency, his thac0 difference with Minsc will only be a mere 3. With improved haste and dual wield, he will be a comparable fighter, while having a vastly better defense. Magical defense rules, even Aerie is a better fighter than Minsc in some cases. She soloed Kangaxx in my game once and that was quite cool.

NocturneN · Post by **NocturneN** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:29 am

roller1234 wrote:With ToB installed, dual classes got quite nerved. But if your kensai is dualed at level 13, and i hope its level 13, then with more than 2 stars in a weapon proficiency, his thac0 difference with Minsc will only be a mere 3. With improved haste and dual wield, he will be a comparable fighter, while having a vastly better defense. Magical defense rules, even Aerie is a better fighter than Minsc in some cases. She soloed Kangaxx in my game once and that was quite cool.

Ah, hell, that's a "no". I dualled her at level 9, didn't feel like waiting too long... What nerfs are you talking about? I assume that before they got thac0 from their second class aswell? Still, a Mage only improves thac0 each 6th level or so.

roller1234 · Post by **roller1234** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:47 pm

ToB introduced high level abilities and dual classes are missing out. A lvl9 kensai/mage has thief hit chance, the difference with Minsc will be 9 thac0, which is already a significant number, though the bigger problem will be is that Minsc will have 10 attacks per round, or will have attacks which always hit, which not only directly boost damage, but gets rid of stoneskin/mirror image faster, since they are protecting against a fixed number of hits. But for vanilla i dont think it matters.

NocturneN · Post by **NocturneN** » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:26 pm

Well, if my Kensai were to recieve warrior HLA's, she'd need to be level 20-ish, correct? I should still get the Mage HLAs, though, right? I mean if it turns out my K/M suddenly becomes inadequate as a warrior, I could still fall back on my mage skills... right?

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:39 pm

That is correct. However, your K/M will never become inadequate as a warrior, especially with the help of the mage's spells. In fact, he will be stronger than any pure-call fighter.

NocturneN · Post by **NocturneN** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:16 am

Crenshinibon wrote:That is correct. However, your K/M will never become inadequate as a warrior, especially with the help of the mage's spells. In fact, he will be stronger than any pure-call fighter.

I see, though it seems Roller disagrees? Is a 9 thac0 difference really that bad, then? I mean, I will still have access to Improved Haste which sort of does what Whirlwind does? And there is no thac0 penalty with Imp Haste as with Whirlwind...

roller1234 · Post by **roller1234** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:41 am

Hey i just said two posts above that Aerie can be better fighter than Minsc. A kensai/mage is certainly no worse, but for all intends and purposes his fighting abilities equal a rogue level, like bards, swashbucklers etc. Is it enough? To each its own.

NocturneN · Post by **NocturneN** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:59 am

roller1234 wrote:Hey i just said two posts above that Aerie can be better fighter than Minsc. A kensai/mage is certainly no worse, but for all intends and purposes his fighting abilities equal a rogue level, like bards, swashbucklers etc. Is it enough? To each its own.

I apologize, I did not mean to offend you; I was merely curios what you meant since it sounded to me like you meant my K/M would be rather bad in ToB. Obviously I was wrong.

Thanks for the advice, guys!

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:11 pm

As I said before, any mage is better of a fighter than a fighter himself. This is primarily due to all of the modifications that you can give to your characters, such as protections, immunities, regenerations, constant fast attack speed - more health than attainable by other characters, and of course a maximum AC and to your question a great THAC0.

As per your question, generally, the magic number for THAC0 seems to be -15 or so. You'll be fine with anywhere between that and -13.

NocturneN · Post by **NocturneN** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:19 am

I feel the need to ask some follow-up questions, here.

So, from what I gather from your advice in this thread, my level 9 Kensai/Mage will NOT be on par with a pure fighter when considering only her fighting skills, but she WILL be comparable (and even better) when we factor in her magic skills? Have I understood this correctly?

Another question: Minsc, at level 21, will have a base Thac0 of 0. If we factor in his strength, it will be -2. Now, finally, we give him a +5 sword that he is specialized with, which sets his thac0 to -8. Now, -8 is no doubt a very good thac0, but it is still not even near -13, -15 as Crenshinibon states above. I suppose we could give him the Helm of Balduran (-1) and some gauntlets which boosts thac0, and he'd be sitting at around -10. It's still not -13, -15. And what happens with characters like Anomen, which have a base thac0 of 6? Or thieves, 10 (!) base thac0? Will they even be able to hit anything?

Sorry for being stubborn here, but I'm in a bit of dilemma now. Either I alter my character in Shadowkeeper to dualled at level 13 instead, or play on and hope for the best. I went ahead and remade her as a single-class Kensai level 9. I intend to level that class up to 13, then re-award the xp from my Mage levels, as it feels like I'm totally cheating otherwise...getting to level 13 as a fighter, then 14 as a mage takes ~3,000,000 xp which I assume is pretty much the whole of SoA, and would be alot more challengeing that dualling from level 9 as I've done.

Do you think I should do this? Altering her in Shadowkeeper, I mean. Yes, I understand that the Mage spells are very powerful (I've seen what Tenser's does, lol) and would be quite enough to keep her going. It just feels...meh. It feels like I'll be playing an inferior character.

roller1234 · Post by **roller1234** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:51 pm

Thats why you play a multiclass. Dual classes have a certain peak, and then they loose power, no matter if its 9 or 13 , both will be more or less mages in ToB, so dont do anything with SK. Just look at Nalia, her thief levels would be great in BG1, but in bg2 its a non factor. That having said, it is possible to play him as a fighter, it just requires buffs, and a kensai/mage still outshines most NPC so he is not bad. Its not like he becomes pathetic, its that arcane spells become so good it becomes pointless to use the time to buff him, where you could use this time to simply kill everything. That having said, a kensai/mage has the best simulacra in the game, so dont miss out on that spell.

NocturneN · Post by **NocturneN** » Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:01 am

roller1234 wrote:Thats why you play a multiclass. Dual classes have a certain peak, and then they loose power, no matter if its 9 or 13 , both will be more or less mages in ToB, so dont do anything with SK. Just look at Nalia, her thief levels would be great in BG1, but in bg2 its a non factor. That having said, it is possible to play him as a fighter, it just requires buffs, and a kensai/mage still outshines most NPC so he is not bad. Its not like he becomes pathetic, its that arcane spells become so good it becomes pointless to use the time to buff him, where you could use this time to simply kill everything. That having said, a kensai/mage has the best simulacra in the game, so dont miss out on that spell.

Well, I use Imoen as my only thief currently, and she works great. ^^ I feel I need to disagree abit; look at Anomen. From his 7 levels of fighter, he gains an extra attack and the ability to dualwield which increases his fighting prowess rather massively. He's much better than a pure Cleric, and can still reach the highest Cleric level. You could even take him to 13 as fighter for another 1/2 attack and he'd still be able to reach 38 as a Cleric, 2 levels lower than maximum. I feel like a multiclass is the proverbial "jack of all trades, master of none". I mean, let's see, a Fighter/Mage can reach levels 24/21 if I'm not mistaken; wouldn't that severly cripple your HLAs? If I understand the tables correctly, you could only get 5 warrior HLAs and 3 Mage HLAs. :S

Regardless, yours is the voice of reason as I haven't even played ToB yet. ^^ So, I will take your advice and just play on, after all, it will be too much work to replay and become a Kensai level 13 combined with the fear of messing up the game from too much tweaking.

The best way is probably just to see for myself, anyway.

Thanks for the advice!