Fighter/Mage/Thief

TBD · Post by **TBD** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:26 am

Hi

I'm going to start a new game with a f/m/t. Now I know I have seen a thread about multiclass FMT a while ago, but I really don't know how to return a positive search - all I get is "error".
So I want to know the general pro's and con's for this class, and hope you guys can help me out a bit.

I like the idea of a playing a character that I can relate to; so a sneaky FMT would suit me well

Now, I do love judging ppl - paladin ftw; You FAIL, sir! (And my deity is better than your deity...) But as I'm not really a brave frontliner, but somewhat dirty and sneaky, I wouldn't be the cool, laidback warrior I can feel you think I am

I want to turn this into an introduce-MYself-thread here too, this being my second post here and all.
I've been playing this game since it got out, and I'm still struggling sometimes at Core Rules(!). Anyway, I'm from Norway, in my late twenties, and I'm a sucker for the whole RPG-feeling. So..HI

roller1234 · Post by **roller1234** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:21 am

The usefulness of fmt depends on how large the party is and whether the XP-cap is removed( yes the 8mio cap) cause the fmt needs more than that to get all his abilities, whether or not they are needed if ofc another question. its pretty meh in a full party. Its okay duo. And solo enemies commit suicide at the mere sight of him.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:36 am

Even if you remove the xp cap a FMT will never get mage HLAs, even solo.

As Roller says if your running a full party a FMT is always going to be the weakest member of the party. Solo, again as Roller said, a FMT totally kills the game, even without a mage's HLAs.

The obvious weakness is having to split her/his xp three ways. Basicly in a full party a FMT is the ultimate "Jack of all trades, master of none".

If you're going to have a party with four or more characters then I suggest you check out the available NPCs, get a feel of which ones you want and then choose either a fighter/thief or Fighter/Mage, either multi-class or dual class. A mage/thief can be powerful but only gets one attack per round naturally, or two if you're dual wielding and has a poor chance of hitting, especially early in the game.

Alternatively you could consider a Bard, limited natural attacks per round, poor THACO, but if you choose a Blade (is there a better choice?) then your offensive and defensive spins make up for that.

TBD · Post by **TBD** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:02 am

Thanks for the info! Can't believe I've never tried a FMT even tho i've played this game for so long.

The HLA thingy just makes it a bit more challenging. That, and i am just hands down tired of managing a thief who is not the main char. So i figured a FMT would be fun to play in a party, even tho that char is going to be the "weakest" member.
Hmm..a Blade. I hate Haer'Dalis..maybe if I was the Blade it would be appealing.
Anyhow, thanks.

NocturneN · Post by **NocturneN** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:33 am

The problem with a Blade imo is that it's just a weaker version of a Fighter/Mage, really. As a Bard you only get pick pockets for thief skills if I remember correctly, so no backstabbing or stealthing, you have to rely on abilities to get decent APRs while a Fighter/Mage has that naturally. Not to mention crap HP...

I've considered playing a F/M/T, myself, but always reached similar conclusions to Roller and Galraen. Oh and fun OP, TBD!

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:32 am

Damn, where's Crenshinibon when you need him?

In case you haven't come across the aforementioned poster he's the world expert on Blades. As he's not been on for while I'll try to pinch hit for him.

With Offensive spin, plus buffs, when you are also under the effect of free action, the Blade becomes a killing machine par excellence. The Blade might not get as high spells as a mage, but her/his spells are more effective due to being higher level. No in BG2 a bard can't backstab, but he can pick anyone's pockets by the time you're half way through SoA, so you rarely have to actually buy anything. It's a cold day in Hades when I actually spend money in Ust Natha if I have a Bard in the party. A straight fight between a Blade and a fighter/mage would be interesting to watch, not sure which way it would go.

The real problem with a Blade for me is that the class needs micro-managing, which isn't my style.

NocturneN · Post by **NocturneN** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:38 pm

galraen wrote:Damn, where's Crenshinibon when you need him?

In case you haven't come across the aforementioned poster he's the world expert on Blades. As he's not been on for while I'll try to pinch hit for him.

With Offensive spin, plus buffs, when you are also under the effect of free action, the Blade becomes a killing machine par excellence. The Blade might not get as high spells as a mage, but her/his spells are more effective due to being higher level. No in BG2 a bard can't backstab, but he can pick anyone's pockets by the time you're half way through SoA, so you rarely have to actually buy anything. It's a cold day in Hades when I actually spend money in Ust Natha if I have a Bard in the party. A straight fight between a Blade and a fighter/mage would be interesting to watch, not sure which way it would go.

The real problem with a Blade for me is that the class needs micro-managing, which isn't my style.

Well, I certainly am no expert on Blades myself, so take my post with a pinch of salt, just adding my 2 gp.

Now I understand why you have so much money; I've never really bothered with stealing.

Considering I play as a good-aligned PC with many Lawful-aligned party members, it never seemed feasible...will steal a heck lot more with my Evil party, though.

Backstab is crazy! Considering you can backstab from invisibility a single thief can severly cripple an enemy party in seconds just by chucking Invis Pots! And if that's not convinving, it's a heck of alot of fun just watching the numbers, alone. Admittedly, True Sight and similar abilities can mess you up and render you pretty much useless, combined with a thief's low thac0 it's usually best to dual from fighter or play a multiclass...but I value backstab alot higher than pick pockets. Thing is, if Blades could backstab, it'd be a no-brainer for me to play one, swashbuckler would also be interesting. Trying to relate to that the OP wanted a stealthy character, while a Blade is more of Fighter, I guess.

As for Blade VS F/M, I'm not sure either.

Guess it would come down to the HLAs; I don't have a highlevelled thief yet (Having heaps of fun with Sarevok dualled into thief atm), so I can't really say. ^^

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:22 pm

Backstab is definitely over the top in BG, but not nearly as OTT as trap setting! Add the two together and it's triple cheese with a double helping of mozzarella on top! Which is my problem with fighter/thieves, it's game over before you even leave Chateau Irenicus. Fun at first, but the game's far too easy after a while.

TBD · Post by **TBD** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:56 pm

Glad you liked my introduction, Thomas

I only "like" micromanaging when that burden falls on my main char, if I have to micromanage any of the NPC's too much I quickly lose interest - Haer'Dalis, Yoshi and Aerie goes straight out the window on my part.
So, I decided to try out a multiclass Thief/Mage, using stats I hope reflects me as a person. Splitting xp up three ways as a f/m/t would gimp me too much in a full-man party, didn't think of that at all 'till Galraen pointed it out - cheers

Yeah, I can see myself backstab mindflayers and the like, and if that doesn't work - I've got magic, Boo and his sidekick Minsc

I appreciate your insights and comments!
Ooh..imagine Sarevok getting his Deathbringer Assault on a high-crit backstab

Hope you get one, Thomas!

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:17 pm

Once you get Tenser's Transformation your character will not need anyone else!

Garriath · Post by **Garriath** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:01 pm

For what it's worth, I found my F/M/T to be a really frustrating playthrough, but that was in BG1. You're either stuck between having a very weak character (believe me, you advance *slowly*) in a larger party, or playing the game without its best feature (the NPCs). I've had much more fun (and been much more effective) both as a blade and as a M/T. If I were you, I'd look at the F/M/T and ask yourself what appeals to you the most about the character, and then simply pick the two classes that most appeal, probably either a F/T or M/T. It'll make your character much more useful in a party, and probably make for a better experience all around.

In brief: I've really found that playing a F/M/T isn't nearly as much fun as it sounds conceptually.

toughchan · Post by **toughchan** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:20 am

I actually love soloing so F/M/T is heaven to me. When F/M/T get spell level 6 to gain access to Protection from magical weapon and Improved Haste then nothing can stop her. Buff up Stone Skin, then Improved Haste for 10 attacks a round and engage the enemies, buff PfMW and bam! That's it! Powerful enemy? I don't know many enemies in BGII can take a backstab from the Celestial Fury or Staff of the Ram. hmmm...really tough enemies like dragons? You surely can fight them head-on if you buff up enough with spell, potion...but you are a lazy bum? Well, lay down some traps and that's it

NocturneN · Post by **NocturneN** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:47 am

galraen wrote:Backstab is definitely over the top in BG, but not nearly as OTT as trap setting! Add the two together and it's triple cheese with a double helping of mozzarella on top! Which is my problem with fighter/thieves, it's game over before you even leave Chateau Irenicus. Fun at first, but the game's far too easy after a while.

Aye, too true. I constantly find myself trying to find a balance between what's fun and what's overpowered; the challenge is vital to me in games. Sarevok is (ironically) the first "real" backstabber I've had, since I've primarily used Jan/Nalia/Imoen before, so finally having a powerful backstabber is golden to me.

I have only recently begun boosting up his trap setting skill, and I will probably be using traps sparingly aswell - Just wanted to point out that as a Blade you will be lacking many of the fun thief skills. Ofcourse, it comes down to personal preference, though, in the end.

TBD wrote:Glad you liked my introduction, Thomas
I only "like" micromanaging when that burden falls on my main char, if I have to micromanage any of the NPC's too much I quickly lose interest - Haer'Dalis, Yoshi and Aerie goes straight out the window on my part.
So, I decided to try out a multiclass Thief/Mage, using stats I hope reflects me as a person. Splitting xp up three ways as a f/m/t would gimp me too much in a full-man party, didn't think of that at all 'till Galraen pointed it out - cheers
Yeah, I can see myself backstab mindflayers and the like, and if that doesn't work - I've got magic, Boo and his sidekick Minsc

I appreciate your insights and comments!
Ooh..imagine Sarevok getting his Deathbringer Assault on a high-crit backstab Hope you get one, Thomas!

Aye, I can sort of relate to that; It's much more fun microning your mainchar because it is ultimately the character you care the most about - but one of the most fun aspects of this game for me is utilizing all of the characters to the max in every fight...I've probably played too much Arena in WoW.

Deathbringer Assault is abit cheesy...I think it always kills the target, so I don't think the damage changes wether he backstabs or not (I usually get the same number when it procs - 200dmg + 40 or something like that). What IS awesome is when he crits on a regular backstab with the Celestial Fury for some 100+ damage.

I know Staves are better, but imho it feels wierd having a thief fighting with a staff.

Both Tensers and PfMW are cheesy as heck...I mean it's fine and balanced for a Mage but when you give those abilities to a fighter it just becomes overpowered as heck.

For the record, despite all the fancy Mage protections that my Fighter/Mage enjoys, I find myself constantly wishing I had rolled a regular Fighter or a multiclass Fighter/Mage instead... Minsc gets so many cool attacks and abilities and with Hardiness + Armor of Faith he's nigh unkillable aswell.

Revi · Post by **Revi** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:47 am

I've played F/M/T solo through the entire game with XP cap removed, if you play it like that it's a lot of fun because you are so versatile, much less boring than soloing a pure fighter or f/m or f/t or something. But I agree with the other posters that you are going to be the gimp of the party if you play in a 4-6 man team with a F/M/T PC.

In a team, just go F/M. T/M or F/T, depending on whether backstabs, THAC0 or spell protections is more important to you. And depending on what your team members supply. If, for example, you already have a thief in your party, F/M is more useful than F/T.

TBD · Post by **TBD** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:16 pm

Thomas Brorsson wrote:Aye, I can sort of relate to that; It's much more fun microning your mainchar because it is ultimately the character you care the most about - but one of the most fun aspects of this game for me is utilizing all of the characters to the max in every fight...I've probably played too much Arena in WoW.

Deathbringer Assault is abit cheesy...I think it always kills the target, so I don't think the damage changes wether he backstabs or not (I usually get the same number when it procs - 200dmg + 40 or something like that). What IS awesome is when he crits on a regular backstab with the Celestial Fury for some 100+ damage. I know Staves are better, but imho it feels wierd having a thief fighting with a staff.

Both Tensers and PfMW are cheesy as heck...I mean it's fine and balanced for a Mage but when you give those abilities to a fighter it just becomes overpowered as heck.

For the record, despite all the fancy Mage protections that my Fighter/Mage enjoys, I find myself constantly wishing I had rolled a regular Fighter or a multiclass Fighter/Mage instead... Minsc gets so many cool attacks and abilities and with Hardiness + Armor of Faith he's nigh unkillable aswell.

Haha, I played WoW a bit too, but enjoyed it most when it was still vanilla

Arena was cool tho! (I've stopped playing completely)
I think it's awesome when he use his DA

It's like he focus all of his energy in his attack because he is just plain sick of his enemy

It's weird backstabbing with a staff...it is in fact impossible to backstab someone with a staff! Even tho it's a game it is just not something that feels right imo too.
Yeah fighter-ish classes get cool attacks!

NocturneN · Post by **NocturneN** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:36 pm

TBD wrote:Haha, I played WoW a bit too, but enjoyed it most when it was still vanilla Arena was cool tho! (I've stopped playing completely)
I think it's awesome when he use his DA It's like he focus all of his energy in his attack because he is just plain sick of his enemy
It's weird backstabbing with a staff...it is in fact impossible to backstab someone with a staff! Even tho it's a game it is just not something that feels right imo too.
Yeah fighter-ish classes get cool attacks!

TBC was the best period, imho. Vanilla was good too, but ultimately alittle bit too much grinding for my tastes... TBC on the other hand was perfect, in WotLK (which was an decent expansion though), things started going downhill, and now they've completely ruined that game, for me.

Aye, I agree to an extent. I'm abit fuzzy when it comes to character-specific abilities though; had Deathbringer been a playable fighter kit, and if DA wasn't as ridicilously powerful (Instakill, come on...), I'd probably enjoy it alot more. Feels like DA falls outside of the games ruleset for me, thus I find it far more satisfying when I pull off something crazy that I consider to be WITHIN the ruleset, such as a superhigh backstab crit.

Call me a wierdo, I know.

Think I read somewhere that a "backstab" isn't necessarily a backstab, but rather should've been "sneak attack", but that they named it "backstab" in order for it to be consistent with the 2d ruleset...or something like that.

Either way, a thief using a staff is just plain wierd, imo, wether they use it to stab people (lol) or simply ambush people with it.

A staff isn't really stealthy at all; it's long and cumbersome. You'd be better off with a dagger or a shortsword.

Er...wow, I really can't stop writing once I get going, it seems... I'll leave it at that for now, too much offtopic chatter from me tonight, bah..

TBD · Post by **TBD** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:51 pm

Well, I'm glad I no longer play WoW

Yeah, I see what you mean - altho I look at it as a character-trait for Sarevok. True that, a staff is just not suited to ambush someone with, it CAN be done, but it should not be THE BEST backstab-weapon in the game. It should incur a penalty, imo

Anyhow, christmas is here and I would like to say: Merry christmas!

NocturneN · Post by **NocturneN** » Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:02 am

TBD wrote:Well, I'm glad I no longer play WoW
Yeah, I see what you mean - altho I look at it as a character-trait for Sarevok. True that, a staff is just not suited to ambush someone with, it CAN be done, but it should not be THE BEST backstab-weapon in the game. It should incur a penalty, imo

Anyhow, christmas is here and I would like to say: Merry christmas!

Exacly my thoughts! Merry chrismas.

roller1234 · Post by **roller1234** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:50 am

Tripleclasses get most, including mage's HLA with g3fixpack installed. But anyways my post was directed at games with xp cap removed. Ironically with the cap tripleclasses get a bit more versatile, as they dont need huge amounts of xp anymore, due to capping, so dont need to be solo, so as long as they can reach 8million xp, (about 4 player party) they are partyfriendly and play out as a lesser fighter/mage with less thac0 and less spells. With 20 HLA they get they can get every important ability there is and then some. Considering the f/m is on top of the character power chart there shouldnt be any problems in playing them in a party, granted i havent tried a party full of tripleclasses yet(and probably never will xD ).

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:02 am

I've never got the triple class HLA fix fro the g3fixpack to work. Even with that I've had to resort to tweaking via IEEP to get mage HLAs, must be the way I install them or something