Blindsight, See Invisible, Darkness (spell) and Invisibility (spell)

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:51 pm

I thought I knew how they worked, Blindsight pierces only Darkness (spell) and See Invisible pierces Invisibility (spell), so that you can use either Darkness or See Invisible to avoid sight. But maybe that's not the case and I've been wrong about it for a long time.

NWN2Wikia on the matter:
- Blindness: This spell allows the target to see through magical Darkness and Invisibility.
..
This has the effects of the old NWN1 spell Ultravision, and See Invisibility rolled into one. (http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Blind_Sight)

The GameBanshee spell descriptions on the matter:
- Blindsight: The target can see invisible creatures (as the see invisibility spell) and suffers no penalties for fighting or acting in total darkness.
- See Invisibility: The target creature is able to see all invisible creatures within his line of sight.

What's the use of See Invisibility if it does only half of what Blindsight does? What exactly is the difference between Blindsight and See Invisible? How do both of them interact with Darkness and Invisibility?

I feel I may be missing something fairly obvious here. I don't understand why a spell was included that is outclassed by an almost identical spell on the same spell level.

Ares2382 · Post by **Ares2382** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:47 pm

Really isn't any good explanation. Really the only good thing about See Invisibility is that bards (and Wizards specializing in Conjuration) don't have access to Blindsight, so See Invisibility is the only way they can see invisible creatures.

For (most)Wizards and Sorcerers Blindsight is always better then See Invisibility.

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:39 pm

Blindsight is pretty much the "go-to" spell for a spell caster. It pretty much leaves True Seeing in the "dust" - which does exactly the same thing but costs several spell-levels higher.

The irony is - Blindsight doesn't seem to work against a blindness effect (like Blindness/Deafness or Sunbeam). Pitiful.

(..actually considering the "deafness" portion of Blindness Deafness - it's perfectly reasonable, but not Sunbeam.)

-Not as pitiful as True Seeing though.. which should be able to do all sorts of things that it can't do like pierce Illusions (..Mirror Image, Phantasms, Shadow Shield, etc..).

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:48 pm

Tricky wrote:
I feel I may be missing something fairly obvious here. I don't understand why a spell was included that is outclassed by an almost identical spell on the same spell level.

It's even an oddity in PnP, where Blindsight effectively pierces concealment Magical and "Mundane" (i.e. "Hiding"). The thing is, in PnP - distance can come into play more often - where PnP Blindsight is limited in range.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:18 am

Hm. Then I got it.

So, magical Darkness.. It technically doesn't render you invisible, but blocks everything around you from sight. So See Invisible shouldn't work because.. you are not invisible?

It could be useful, but I don't really know which type of detection is the most prevalent among the OC and expansions.

Ares2382 · Post by **Ares2382** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:29 am

Tricky wrote:Hm. Then I got it.

So, magical Darkness.. It technically doesn't render you invisible, but blocks everything around you from sight. So See Invisible shouldn't work because.. you are not invisible?

It could be useful, but I don't really know which type of detection is the most prevalent among the OC and expansions.

You will occasionally run into rogues who hide in the shadows, but other then that, I don't seem to recall to many times where detection was needed. And I can't really remember at all someone casting a darkness spell on me.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:47 am

Ares I mean it the other way around, what kind of detection is the enemy npcs using - and does that mean I can use Darkness in cases where Invisibility would have been detected?

Ares2382 · Post by **Ares2382** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:29 am

Tricky wrote:Ares I mean it the other way around, what kind of detection is the enemy npcs using - and does that mean I can use Darkness in cases where Invisibility would have been detected?

Oh the AI isn't quiet that smart. If you cast any kind of vision impairing spells, most likely they won't dispell them. With Darkness though, do be aware that some creatures have Darkvision feat, although I have no idea if they toggle it on or not (since it's a toggle ability).

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:37 am

Thanks. I think I'm going to find out for myself. In the new year.

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:18 pm

Tricky wrote:Hm. Then I got it.

So, magical Darkness.. It technically doesn't render you invisible, but blocks everything around you from sight. So See Invisible shouldn't work because.. you are not invisible?

It could be useful, but I don't really know which type of detection is the most prevalent among the OC and expansions.

Darkness only works when the enemy is within the radius - so if you cast it on your location and the enemy is beyond that radius then they can see you. Once they get close to you however (with that particular "thrum" sound as they enter the radius) - THEN they become blind and can't see you. If you move out of the Darkness radius effect and they are still in it - then they still can't see you (..unless you make an attack of some sort) until they are also out of the radius. See Invisibility won't work to spot you.

Still, they know where you are/were standing from seeing you before they entered the radius effect - and they can hear you if you move. Also Orcs can smell you. (..possibly a few monsters as well.)

If you have enough skill points in Move Silently with not much armor penalty, and some points in Hide, then you can turn on your Hide ability and successfully enter Stealth mode with respect to those opponents.

This is also true of Sunbeam's blindness effect or the 2nd level Warlock Invocation essence to Eldritch Blast. (..better still with Blindness/Deafness. In fact Blindness/Deafness is an outrageously good spell in NWN2 that is seldom used, particularly good in PvP environments against low Fortitude save-types.).

Dispels can remove Darkness, as can Gust of Wind. No spell resist or save feature to it (..despite Spell Resistance mentioned in the description). Attack just once though and you will be "spotted" - though how this occurs I have no idea. Nor do I know in what respect you are "spotted" though certainly it's location and the opponent you are attacking.

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:34 pm

Ares2382 wrote:Oh the AI isn't quiet that smart. If you cast any kind of vision impairing spells, most likely they won't dispell them. With Darkness though, do be aware that some creatures have Darkvision feat, although I have no idea if they toggle it on or not (since it's a toggle ability).

Darkvision does not pierce magical Darkness.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:55 am

Thanks, Ares2382 and Scottg. What an unexpectedly interesting little subject.