This is not a trolling attempt, just a discussion if anyone is interested 1 year after.
So I was a Bioware fan until DA2 came out. The few hours spent playing that convinced me that corporate acme was now prevalent in a company I had followed since Shattered Steel. Then the prothean DLC infuriated me, and Tali's (supermodel) face seemed the very definition of mass appeal when the series was about diversity and strength. These two issues were the deciding factor in believing the ending was ruined due to bad business practice "continue your adventures with DLC" and the fan rage inspired by having brought the galaxy together only for the Star Child to dismissively wave it all away.
The I watched these two videos's on the indoctrination theory:
[media=youtube]ZZOyeFvnhiI[/media]
[media=youtube]2CKHLDgz2zE[/media]
Then the extended cut Angry Joe video debunking the theory:
[media=youtube]6nINYfgEG2w[/media]
Having watched the ending play out on Youtube I'd like to think I would have also thought the last 10 min's were in Shepard's head, that he was hit with Harbingers laser, lay dying and those moments were a battle -for his identity or soul - between the defiant soldier (represented by Anderson) and the corrupting pragmatic evil (represented by Illusive man) so that the final red choice resulting in Shepard living was the renegade act of fighting to survive instead of idealistically being assimilated/indoctrinated - the reaper's consumption of the soul that I think was represented by the "Control" and "Synthesis" endings.
The problem with the theory being true is that it means they were planning on either finishing the story there - cliffhanger Empire Strikes Back type - or actually were going to continue with DLC.
Which brings me full circle back to DLC rage because it would have also meant the fan indoctrinated over 5 years into this changing business model of paying per piece of content invested (financially and otherwise) into the game, or series.
In the end I would have still lost respect for Bioware. Taking into account the change of talent over the years, EA, rushed schedule, or perhaps just "This is our artistic vision for an ending". They might have underestimated the fan/internet mob reaction and thought the ending was 'Lost' enough to get away with it until more DLC. Now after the fan reaction were forced into dropping the indoctrination theory and going with a more conventional ending.
...Thoughts? I still don't intend to buy ME3, but it would be interesting if I've boycotted it for face value reasons:
[media=youtube]b33tJx8iy0A[/media]
- when there could have been so much more to rage about.
Was I Trolled into Not Buyng ME3?. Spoilers
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Darth Gavinius
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I had a lot of reservations about getting Mass Effect 3 - though admittedly the reason I held out was that I didn't want to install Origin. I like Mass Effect 3 - although the ending is anticlimactic. You can watch all the videos on the end etc. but the only way to feel justified in your response is to take your Shepherd to that conclusion. I admit, the ending left me baffled - and I though, "F@*% is that it!"
Ultimately the measure of a game is not about how it ends, it is the journey you take to reach the end. One of my favorite games of all times is KOTORII - but the end was a broken mess, I have still replayed it more than just about any other game I own - and the Restoration Mod did an awesome task in making the end better. Mass Effect 3 is a damn good squad based shooter with RPG pretensions and it has some amazing fights along the way and some really great interactions between your squad mates. There is a level of humanity about ME3 where the game really excels and in ME3 most of what you did for good or ill, will either pay out or come back to haunt you - but there are also a several places where Bioware really F***ed this up - probably due to the problems of scope and streamlining objectives.
My advice is, get it when it is cheap and take your Shepherd from ME1 to the conclusion - and decide for yourself what happens.
My own thoughts on the end have softened with time. When you are still buzzing from the battle it takes to reach the end, I think the end feels like a total let down. But calmly and philosophically, the end gives you some things to think about if not taken at face value.
Ultimately the measure of a game is not about how it ends, it is the journey you take to reach the end. One of my favorite games of all times is KOTORII - but the end was a broken mess, I have still replayed it more than just about any other game I own - and the Restoration Mod did an awesome task in making the end better. Mass Effect 3 is a damn good squad based shooter with RPG pretensions and it has some amazing fights along the way and some really great interactions between your squad mates. There is a level of humanity about ME3 where the game really excels and in ME3 most of what you did for good or ill, will either pay out or come back to haunt you - but there are also a several places where Bioware really F***ed this up - probably due to the problems of scope and streamlining objectives.
My advice is, get it when it is cheap and take your Shepherd from ME1 to the conclusion - and decide for yourself what happens.
My own thoughts on the end have softened with time. When you are still buzzing from the battle it takes to reach the end, I think the end feels like a total let down. But calmly and philosophically, the end gives you some things to think about if not taken at face value.
Two wrongs don't make a right... but three lefts do!
If beauty is in the eye of the bee-holder, then why are hives considered unattractive features?
If beauty is in the eye of the bee-holder, then why are hives considered unattractive features?
No, you weren't trolled out of buying it. It wasn't trolling anyway, since the anger was justified.
Why? Because BioWare broke the golden rule of roleplaying: The players shape the story, and get the ending they deserve. I have GMed more PnP campaigns than I can count, and I have never cheated my players out of a satisfying ending - all you get for that is resentment.
I will have to disagree with Darth Gavinius, ME3 is not very good. There are some wonderful character moments and good voice acting, but apart from that, you won't want to play it more than once. The digital acting is budget, the gameplay is not as enjoyable as ME2, you will get controller rage. Worst, after about half an hour of linear shooter combat, you get to spend two hours in an elevator, listening to boring conversations and doing crappy fetch-and-carry quests. The biggest problem is that the game is overly cinematic - I can't tell you why because it's spoiler time!
If you want a good shooter, play the Gears of War trilogy instead. If you want a brilliantly written game with great voice acting, get the latest Tomb Raider. If you want a good RPG I guess you should play KotOR2 (if you can stomach the inappropriate D&D game mechanics).
Why? Because BioWare broke the golden rule of roleplaying: The players shape the story, and get the ending they deserve. I have GMed more PnP campaigns than I can count, and I have never cheated my players out of a satisfying ending - all you get for that is resentment.
I will have to disagree with Darth Gavinius, ME3 is not very good. There are some wonderful character moments and good voice acting, but apart from that, you won't want to play it more than once. The digital acting is budget, the gameplay is not as enjoyable as ME2, you will get controller rage. Worst, after about half an hour of linear shooter combat, you get to spend two hours in an elevator, listening to boring conversations and doing crappy fetch-and-carry quests. The biggest problem is that the game is overly cinematic - I can't tell you why because it's spoiler time!
If you want a good shooter, play the Gears of War trilogy instead. If you want a brilliantly written game with great voice acting, get the latest Tomb Raider. If you want a good RPG I guess you should play KotOR2 (if you can stomach the inappropriate D&D game mechanics).
I briefly thought about buying it - £10 + whatever for all DLC, most likely over £20 when done, but now that Kickstarter is around just can't justify that. I remember the Bioware doctors stating "play the game for yourself and make up your mind" and having read bits and pieces since, it would have been mind boggling if they had a 'better' ending planned, were guilty of poor execution (and/or greed) and the mob mentality created this safe, put the fires out, give them what they want explained, expanded, free DLC ending.
If the gameplay, dialogue, are also mediocre then ... ugh.
I thought the ending was shot as soon as Shepard was hit with that laser. The only thing redeeming it would have been the theory and a story continuation from that point. But I've probably wasted too much time trying to evaluate it - just identifying EA as publisher and reading about all of the conspiracy theories and internal politics results in it just being what it is. A mess. So maybe the fans did more harm than good, but based on what was on the disc; whoever put it there asked for it.
If the gameplay, dialogue, are also mediocre then ... ugh.
I thought the ending was shot as soon as Shepard was hit with that laser. The only thing redeeming it would have been the theory and a story continuation from that point. But I've probably wasted too much time trying to evaluate it - just identifying EA as publisher and reading about all of the conspiracy theories and internal politics results in it just being what it is. A mess. So maybe the fans did more harm than good, but based on what was on the disc; whoever put it there asked for it.
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Nymie_the_Pooh
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Overall I was enjoying the game until it hit me that nothing I did mattered. I had my save game from the first one going into game two, but lost the save before getting game three. I had saved Wrex in the first game and the thing that slapped me in the face was that it didn't matter because his brother was right there for me in game three and filled the exact same role. I didn't experience this in the second game as I had my save game so there were things like Wrex being in my copy of the game along (although from what I understand his brother being there instead is not a straight up copy of him) with the plant lady I saved, a message from the Rachni Queen, and I had installed the Bring Down the Sky DLC but didn't remember to play it before transferring my save so there were negative news reports related to it playing in the background. There were little ways of referencing things I did in the first game where I wasn't running into these types of things in game three.
I think the ending would have received a lot less flak if Bioware didn't promise that the ending would change based upon the player's decision throughout the games. I can overlook that pretty easily myself. I like the gameplay and overarching story. I can explain away the ending fairly easily and personally am not phased by it. For me it was the realization that the game was completely on rails no matter what I did and it hit me before the ending so that might be why I didn't get upset over the ending.
I think the ending would have received a lot less flak if Bioware didn't promise that the ending would change based upon the player's decision throughout the games. I can overlook that pretty easily myself. I like the gameplay and overarching story. I can explain away the ending fairly easily and personally am not phased by it. For me it was the realization that the game was completely on rails no matter what I did and it hit me before the ending so that might be why I didn't get upset over the ending.
Chippy: Remember the British public forced Starbucks into paying all that tax voluntarily? Consumers do have power: and they do have the right to create a stink if they want. Just goes to show how arrogant EA/BioWare are if they think they can ignore consumers. So I do not think the fans did more harm than good - it's their right. The developers/ publishers deserved the reaction. After ME3, the boring drivel of DA:O and the only marginally better DA2, they will not be getting any more of my money - ever. If everyone p*ssed off with ME3 did the same, they'd have to do a dramatic U-turn to stay in business. Unfortunately, as seen with rising numbers for TOR since going F2P, it seems even angry customers can be bought off...
Nymie: You've described the main problem I mentioned above - it's overly cinematic. They have decided everything beforehand, like a movie, you just observe it. Right down to not being able to kill the 'Evil Henchman' until the end of the game, because that's when the Evil Henchman dies in the movies. In the interviews on the ME1 collectors edition they stated they wanted to make a game like an interactive movie, rather than the novel style of Baldurs' Gate. I should have spotted it earlier and not wasted my time! Since the first RPG's back in the 70's, the hobby has always been described as like an interactive novel. The cinematic format may well work for adventure games or shooters, but it just does not work for RPG - where your choices should really matter.
Nymie: You've described the main problem I mentioned above - it's overly cinematic. They have decided everything beforehand, like a movie, you just observe it. Right down to not being able to kill the 'Evil Henchman' until the end of the game, because that's when the Evil Henchman dies in the movies. In the interviews on the ME1 collectors edition they stated they wanted to make a game like an interactive movie, rather than the novel style of Baldurs' Gate. I should have spotted it earlier and not wasted my time! Since the first RPG's back in the 70's, the hobby has always been described as like an interactive novel. The cinematic format may well work for adventure games or shooters, but it just does not work for RPG - where your choices should really matter.
@Eastframe: Yes, totally agree in fans continuing to play games despite whatever the developer or publisher pulls. I'm willing to bet there are few who actually didn't buy it. Even more interesting is the desperation seen in posts trying to make sense of the ending, so unlike Nymie_the_Pooh who is able to make this formative assessment of the game while playing, they go into amazing lengths at the summary of the game to justify poor delivery.
I'm sure the fans have spotted this one: but I could come with a theory myself - the 3 circles in the eyes of the indoctrinated represent the three colour receptors (or cone cells) in the human eye. So if all cone cells in the eye are 'influenced', the reaper controls what the subject sees, so (taken from Wikipedia) :
"Since the likelihood of response of a given cone varies not only with the wavelength of the light that hits it but also with its intensity, the brain would not be able to discriminate different colors if it had input from only one type of cone"
Which gives the RGB colours of each ending. Initial studies thought that each cone cell responded to each RGB colour, but that has since been discounted - so instead I could say that the Reaper laser, or the white transport beam was highly intensified light presenting the image to Shepards brain through the RGB colours such as CRT, LCD, OLED displays use to create an image.
So tying together the above paragraph to the quotation - the single red cone cell was the representation of the unaffected part of Shepards brain, while the other two were being fed reaper images.
And I'm sure that's either all BS or moot, because the delivery was so ambiguous.
I'm just hoping some Kickstarter games will change the PC gaming communities perceptions of what Bethesda and Bioware have shoehorned into the market.
I'm sure the fans have spotted this one: but I could come with a theory myself - the 3 circles in the eyes of the indoctrinated represent the three colour receptors (or cone cells) in the human eye. So if all cone cells in the eye are 'influenced', the reaper controls what the subject sees, so (taken from Wikipedia) :
"Since the likelihood of response of a given cone varies not only with the wavelength of the light that hits it but also with its intensity, the brain would not be able to discriminate different colors if it had input from only one type of cone"
Which gives the RGB colours of each ending. Initial studies thought that each cone cell responded to each RGB colour, but that has since been discounted - so instead I could say that the Reaper laser, or the white transport beam was highly intensified light presenting the image to Shepards brain through the RGB colours such as CRT, LCD, OLED displays use to create an image.
So tying together the above paragraph to the quotation - the single red cone cell was the representation of the unaffected part of Shepards brain, while the other two were being fed reaper images.
And I'm sure that's either all BS or moot, because the delivery was so ambiguous.
I'm just hoping some Kickstarter games will change the PC gaming communities perceptions of what Bethesda and Bioware have shoehorned into the market.
@Chippy: I hate PC's. I had already typed all this out when Windows had a hissy fit. PC's SUCK! I got this one at a good spec last year and it's already obsolete for the latest releases. I had already decided to quit PC gaming as a result. I am only interested in what I can buy in a shop for the Xbox360. So unfortunately for EA/BioWare, 'free' DLC doesn't mollify me in the slightest, since I can't use it and I have no connection for the console anyway. Unless you are prepared to spend lots of money on a PC, your opinion doesn't count to these publishers...
Nevertheless, I do hope you are correct that Kickstarter gives people a kick in the arse!
Thanks for posting the vids above. It appears I was correct in saying that angry customers can be bought off!
I like your RGB theory - interesting, I didn't notice that myself. I did however, spot a major flaw in the ending of the game. If Dark Energy is true, and therefore the Cosmological Constant is true. Which means, in game terms, all that had to be done was lure the Reapers into a trap around a destabilising or dying star and create/detonate a mass effect field in it's surface. Of sufficient magnitude, the increased pressure would cause a reverse reaction; that is, implosion. Boom. No more Reapers. So the ending was actually massively contrived and utterly stupid when a much simpler solution would have been obvious to the scientists in the game world. I wish science fiction writers would actually read some science first!
Checking the vids out is the first time I've seen the extended endings and they are still crap. I've said on another thread that I never viewed my Shepard as being some kind of 'Kwisatz Haderach'. BioWare have failed to account for general choices. Such as the one I would have made - Shepard does the job and goes home! I was surprised that there was no option to make Shepard the new Human Councillor. Others would have chosen fighting to the bitter end. So despite their claims, the extended ending is still a case of "You choose what we want you to choose or f*ck you".
All comes down to my point above - way too cinematic. "This is how we decide the movie ends and you don't get a choice." Mark my words - all future BioWare/EA releases will be this way so look forward to more of this crap. Fortunately I have other hobbies. I really feel sorry for the guys and girls that invest so much money and time into computer gaming (I invested enough of mine into the Mass Effect games to make me angry) and yet have to swallow this if they want a AAA game.
Nevertheless, I do hope you are correct that Kickstarter gives people a kick in the arse!
Thanks for posting the vids above. It appears I was correct in saying that angry customers can be bought off!
I like your RGB theory - interesting, I didn't notice that myself. I did however, spot a major flaw in the ending of the game. If Dark Energy is true, and therefore the Cosmological Constant is true. Which means, in game terms, all that had to be done was lure the Reapers into a trap around a destabilising or dying star and create/detonate a mass effect field in it's surface. Of sufficient magnitude, the increased pressure would cause a reverse reaction; that is, implosion. Boom. No more Reapers. So the ending was actually massively contrived and utterly stupid when a much simpler solution would have been obvious to the scientists in the game world. I wish science fiction writers would actually read some science first!
Checking the vids out is the first time I've seen the extended endings and they are still crap. I've said on another thread that I never viewed my Shepard as being some kind of 'Kwisatz Haderach'. BioWare have failed to account for general choices. Such as the one I would have made - Shepard does the job and goes home! I was surprised that there was no option to make Shepard the new Human Councillor. Others would have chosen fighting to the bitter end. So despite their claims, the extended ending is still a case of "You choose what we want you to choose or f*ck you".
All comes down to my point above - way too cinematic. "This is how we decide the movie ends and you don't get a choice." Mark my words - all future BioWare/EA releases will be this way so look forward to more of this crap. Fortunately I have other hobbies. I really feel sorry for the guys and girls that invest so much money and time into computer gaming (I invested enough of mine into the Mass Effect games to make me angry) and yet have to swallow this if they want a AAA game.
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GoldDragon
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In *MY* Opinion, ME 3 didn't fail because of the RGB ending (believe it or not, I had actually expected something of the sort even before the spoiling of the plot), or anything like that.
In the first, we were outright told that the third ME would be the end of the Commander Shepard storyarc. I heard this some time before the plot release. What better way to end the story than with a sacrifice? Dying that others may live? The "Shepard Lives" scene is more fanservice than not, since it allows Shepard to do the impossible one last time (As Thane put it, Shepard has built a career out of performing the impossible).
In the second: Most of the rage against ME 3 was the lack of Aftermath details, which the Extended Cut dealt with to a degree. IMO, Bioware wanted to leave that to the player's imagination. They didn't do it well (therein needing the EC), so It's possible that Bioware won't be pulling that again.
In the third: Mass Effect 3 suffered from two rather critical mistakes. #1: It tried to do entirely too much in one game. Trying to do everything at once basically just destroys the entire thing. IMO, it should have been split itself into 3: The Tuchancka, Rannoch, and Earth Storyarcs should each have been their own Game (Like Ultima 7 Black Gate and Ultima 7 part 2: Serpent Ilse). The first two actually weren't bad, but could easily have been expanded, and Earth simply needed more time. Mistake #2: The game needed more time in development. Railroaded Descions, minimal dialogue, few real choices, etc... all speak of a rushed job. No polish to it (like in both previous ME games, and many others besides) simply reveals all the rough edges, sharp corners, and bare patches that are typically smoothed out before QA really starts. And Mass Effect 3 paid for it. Rather dearly.
All in all, ME 3 isn't a "Bad Game". It's a good game that got badly rushed. Look at the DLCs. Leviathan, Omega, Citadel... All are enjoyable. True, they also have issues, but not nearly so much as the main game.
Personally, I'd advise getting the game. I rate it a 7/10. And NEVER play it without a port from ME 2. EVER! (and ME 2 shouldn't be played without a port from ME 1)
In the first, we were outright told that the third ME would be the end of the Commander Shepard storyarc. I heard this some time before the plot release. What better way to end the story than with a sacrifice? Dying that others may live? The "Shepard Lives" scene is more fanservice than not, since it allows Shepard to do the impossible one last time (As Thane put it, Shepard has built a career out of performing the impossible).
In the second: Most of the rage against ME 3 was the lack of Aftermath details, which the Extended Cut dealt with to a degree. IMO, Bioware wanted to leave that to the player's imagination. They didn't do it well (therein needing the EC), so It's possible that Bioware won't be pulling that again.
In the third: Mass Effect 3 suffered from two rather critical mistakes. #1: It tried to do entirely too much in one game. Trying to do everything at once basically just destroys the entire thing. IMO, it should have been split itself into 3: The Tuchancka, Rannoch, and Earth Storyarcs should each have been their own Game (Like Ultima 7 Black Gate and Ultima 7 part 2: Serpent Ilse). The first two actually weren't bad, but could easily have been expanded, and Earth simply needed more time. Mistake #2: The game needed more time in development. Railroaded Descions, minimal dialogue, few real choices, etc... all speak of a rushed job. No polish to it (like in both previous ME games, and many others besides) simply reveals all the rough edges, sharp corners, and bare patches that are typically smoothed out before QA really starts. And Mass Effect 3 paid for it. Rather dearly.
All in all, ME 3 isn't a "Bad Game". It's a good game that got badly rushed. Look at the DLCs. Leviathan, Omega, Citadel... All are enjoyable. True, they also have issues, but not nearly so much as the main game.
Personally, I'd advise getting the game. I rate it a 7/10. And NEVER play it without a port from ME 2. EVER! (and ME 2 shouldn't be played without a port from ME 1)
-- GD
I agree with that last statement. The "default" start and decisions made in ME1 & ME 2 if you don't import a savegame, feel like Shepherd was played by a drunk cocker spaniel in heat.
Apart from the lack of aftermath, the thing that bothered me the most in the ending (and will remain unforgivable) is that in 5 minutes time, ME turns from a "realistic" SF epos into metaphysical willy-wally nonsense, "just because". (Remember the new Battlestar Galactica, it suffered from the same disease.) It cheapened your entire experience.
Apart from the lack of aftermath, the thing that bothered me the most in the ending (and will remain unforgivable) is that in 5 minutes time, ME turns from a "realistic" SF epos into metaphysical willy-wally nonsense, "just because". (Remember the new Battlestar Galactica, it suffered from the same disease.) It cheapened your entire experience.
@GoldDragon: I wouldn't contest your right to an opinion... if you enjoyed it, that's great. Art is *VERY* subjective, after all. 
The good thing about this forum is being able to share praise or air grievances with people that at least understand your ideas, whether they agree with them or not.
My anger at the end was not so much the lack of details, just that it was not very good. An artificial intelligence gives you a pretty meaningless choice of ending? That was cut and paste from DX:HR along with the *awful* hexagonal designs everywhere... Nevertheless, whether you like the sacrifice ending or not the point is, you are, as you say "railroaded" into it - RPG's are about choice.
I would certainly agree with your third statement. It was far too rushed. Male and Female Shepard have the same legs in the opening cutscene! Male Shepard has a head that looks as much as possible like a human head, and close to the concept art... Female Shepard got a cheap oversized budget head that looks nothing like the concept art. Annoying if you have to spend 40 hours looking at it. Even Dragon Age 2 got that right - both male and female Hawke looked great on screen, and the digital acting was much better. The 'elevatorama' of ME3 speaks of rushed development, instead of having more action.
I also agree that there should have been more, smaller and higher quality games to the story. ME2 was very dedicated in it's storyline but was a great game. I regularly replay that, despite the stupid scanning and lack of weapon choices. Funny, BioWare make rubbish looking armour in every game they do...
You know, it thought ME3 wasn't overall a bad game at first, but then realised that it was only the great character moments that made it worthwhile. Take them out and it's not that great. I'd give ME1 and 2 8/10. ME3... 5/10.
Spot on, that I agree with 100%.
The good thing about this forum is being able to share praise or air grievances with people that at least understand your ideas, whether they agree with them or not.My anger at the end was not so much the lack of details, just that it was not very good. An artificial intelligence gives you a pretty meaningless choice of ending? That was cut and paste from DX:HR along with the *awful* hexagonal designs everywhere... Nevertheless, whether you like the sacrifice ending or not the point is, you are, as you say "railroaded" into it - RPG's are about choice.
I would certainly agree with your third statement. It was far too rushed. Male and Female Shepard have the same legs in the opening cutscene! Male Shepard has a head that looks as much as possible like a human head, and close to the concept art... Female Shepard got a cheap oversized budget head that looks nothing like the concept art. Annoying if you have to spend 40 hours looking at it. Even Dragon Age 2 got that right - both male and female Hawke looked great on screen, and the digital acting was much better. The 'elevatorama' of ME3 speaks of rushed development, instead of having more action.
I also agree that there should have been more, smaller and higher quality games to the story. ME2 was very dedicated in it's storyline but was a great game. I regularly replay that, despite the stupid scanning and lack of weapon choices. Funny, BioWare make rubbish looking armour in every game they do...
You know, it thought ME3 wasn't overall a bad game at first, but then realised that it was only the great character moments that made it worthwhile. Take them out and it's not that great. I'd give ME1 and 2 8/10. ME3... 5/10.
Apart from the lack of aftermath, the thing that bothered me the most in the ending (and will remain unforgivable) is that in 5 minutes time, ME turns from a "realistic" SF epos into metaphysical willy-wally nonsense, "just because". (Remember the new Battlestar Galactica, it suffered from the same disease.) It cheapened your entire experience.
Spot on, that I agree with 100%.