I also have a thread on this on iwd1 board so dont get confused...
I want to play a small party which is capable to run through normal and later hof mode.
Anywhere from 2 to 4 characters is okay.
I need a lot of firepower and enough decoys or meatshields to get through the game.
Can you give me some suggestions?
Which weapons should I use mostly?
Need help on small party running through normal and hof
While it's been some time since I played IWD2 and never completed a HoF playthrough, I remember that spellcasters are the key, especially in HoF mode.
I'd recommend sorcerors over wizards, if only for the reason that they often receive their spells earlier than wizrads, because of how scrolls are distributed in the game. I.e. your sorceror will usually have reached their next spell-level before you'll find a shop that sells the approriate scrolls for wizards to learn their spells.
Downside is that you need to know a bit about the game and spells in order to play a sorceror effectively.
They also work great (in the normal game, at least) in conjunction with druids, since that'll enable you to emply "bottleneck"-tactics where you lure enemies into a small area that your casters pepper with grease, web, spike growth, insect plague, spike stones, cloud kill, stinking cloud, fiery cloud etc. Most enemies will have a hard time making it through that area alive.
Not to mention that both classes receive summons (animate dead, summon X) that can serve as meatshields, especially in HoF mode, where their hitpoints receive a considerable boost.
You could add a rogue (with some levels in another class added - maybe bard?) to that mix, in order to pick locks and disarm traps. Or let the sorceror learn knock.
A cleric would also be a nice addition to this party, lending a hand with summons (animate dead) and healing as well as buffing and debuffing spells and even being able to serve as a tank.
Loremasters of Oghma are suprisingly effective at disabling foes, thanks to domain spells like Symbol of Hopelessness, and various Power Words.
Hope this helps a bit!
I'd recommend sorcerors over wizards, if only for the reason that they often receive their spells earlier than wizrads, because of how scrolls are distributed in the game. I.e. your sorceror will usually have reached their next spell-level before you'll find a shop that sells the approriate scrolls for wizards to learn their spells.
Downside is that you need to know a bit about the game and spells in order to play a sorceror effectively.
They also work great (in the normal game, at least) in conjunction with druids, since that'll enable you to emply "bottleneck"-tactics where you lure enemies into a small area that your casters pepper with grease, web, spike growth, insect plague, spike stones, cloud kill, stinking cloud, fiery cloud etc. Most enemies will have a hard time making it through that area alive.
Not to mention that both classes receive summons (animate dead, summon X) that can serve as meatshields, especially in HoF mode, where their hitpoints receive a considerable boost.
You could add a rogue (with some levels in another class added - maybe bard?) to that mix, in order to pick locks and disarm traps. Or let the sorceror learn knock.
A cleric would also be a nice addition to this party, lending a hand with summons (animate dead) and healing as well as buffing and debuffing spells and even being able to serve as a tank.
Loremasters of Oghma are suprisingly effective at disabling foes, thanks to domain spells like Symbol of Hopelessness, and various Power Words.
Hope this helps a bit!
3 Drows. 2 Males and one Female. Both males as Sorcerers, Female as Demarch of Mask (Cleric). All true Neutral alignment. (..in fact Neutral is the only alignment open to the Demarch of Mask that allows converting spells into healing spells - which is useful.)
Sorcerers: 8/14/16/14/8/20 (always increase Charisma), Spell Focus Necromancy.
1. Skills: 2 Bluff, 4 Concentrate, 2 Diplomacy, 4 Spellcraft (..this character should be your first in "line" to more easily interact with dialog).
2. Skills: 2 Alchemy, 4 Concentrate, 2 Knowledge Arcane, 4 Spellcraft.
Bluff and Alchemy aren't quite as important early-on for each respective character. Concentration and Spellcraft are the most important. Spellcraft is needed to be at 10 points by level 9 for Spirit of Flame. After that you can "ease-off" the Spellcraft in favor of the other skills.
Cleric: 15/*13/16/8/14/14 (increase Strength to start, and the rest Wisdom to 20, and then back to Strength), Power Attack.
Skills: Concentration.
*note: the 13 meets the required amount for Dirty Fighting. Additionally the unneeded point of Dexterity will be removed when using the Battle-squares 2nd level Potion of Transference (for the added 2 points in Wisdom). Just be sure to have Dirty Fighting before you drink it.
The Drow Race is there for the Spell-Resistance, which really can't be beat. Even a Paladin Sorcerer isn't going to have quite the defenses of the Drow's Spell-Resistance (..because of spells like Magic Missiles), and the net result of 2 levels for an Aasimar Paladin/Sorcerer is identical to the Drow's pure Sorcerer.
The Cleric should be built largely as a melee'er with respect to feats: i.e. Power Attack, Cleave, Dirty Fighting, Improved Critical.. Make sure you have Expertise for HoF. Buffing is her mode of operation to improve things, and Blurr + Mirror Image + Improved Invisibility were the big reasons to select the Demarch of Mask. She's also a good summoning character, particularly once she reaches level 5+ with Create Undead. ALWAYS consider using Create Undead (as many as possible), resting, and then casting the spell again to double-up. (..the Boneguards are particularly good and start making an appearance at Cleric level 6.) THEN after summoning as many as you can, use the Cleric's Invisibility Sphere to hide your party and just let the Boneguards attack while you are invisible. (.."inch" the Boneguards forward to only make a few enemies react rather than being surrounded by a large group and wasting the Boneguards.) Don't forget that Undead are immune to Cold damage - which can work in your favor if/when you start casting spells like Snilloc's. They are also immune to Horrid Wilting (at higher levels). And for crowd control they are immune to Stinking Cloud.
The Sorcerers are purist casters - utilizing spells for damage and disabling effects.
Start with Shield and Magic Missile.
Selecting additional spells for the Sorcerer's will be crucial. Usually front-load with the better damage spells like Snilloc's Snowball Storm, and add-on defenses like Mirror Image and Protection from Arrows.
Note: Defensive Spells that can be cast on others like Protection from Arrows should ONLY be selected by ONE of the two Sorcerers, whereas a spell like Shield or Mirror Image should be selected by BOTH of the Sorcerers.
Like-wise Utility spells like Knock and See Invisibility should ONLY be selected by One of the Sorcerers. (..more precisely One Sorcerer should select 2nd level spell Knock, and the other should select 2nd level See Invisibility.)
Additionally, If ANY utility spell (or very similar spell) can be derived from the Cleric's spell-book then do NOT select that spell for the Sorcerer.
Generally select damage spells that "scale" in level for as long as possible (as opposed to those that just "top-out" early). Ex. Skull Trap is generally better than Fireball. Fire Arrow is much better than Lightening Bolt and Icelance. Use this selection technique instead of just sticking to spells that are within the elemental damage feats you have for that character.
Finally, one of the Sorcerers should select Improved Invisibility as soon as it's possible to do so - it's a god-like spell in this game for most of the game. (..the other should select Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, though later.) Once you've got that then move onto Mordenkainen's Force Missiles.
Sorcerers: 8/14/16/14/8/20 (always increase Charisma), Spell Focus Necromancy.
1. Skills: 2 Bluff, 4 Concentrate, 2 Diplomacy, 4 Spellcraft (..this character should be your first in "line" to more easily interact with dialog).
2. Skills: 2 Alchemy, 4 Concentrate, 2 Knowledge Arcane, 4 Spellcraft.
Bluff and Alchemy aren't quite as important early-on for each respective character. Concentration and Spellcraft are the most important. Spellcraft is needed to be at 10 points by level 9 for Spirit of Flame. After that you can "ease-off" the Spellcraft in favor of the other skills.
Cleric: 15/*13/16/8/14/14 (increase Strength to start, and the rest Wisdom to 20, and then back to Strength), Power Attack.
Skills: Concentration.
*note: the 13 meets the required amount for Dirty Fighting. Additionally the unneeded point of Dexterity will be removed when using the Battle-squares 2nd level Potion of Transference (for the added 2 points in Wisdom). Just be sure to have Dirty Fighting before you drink it.
The Drow Race is there for the Spell-Resistance, which really can't be beat. Even a Paladin Sorcerer isn't going to have quite the defenses of the Drow's Spell-Resistance (..because of spells like Magic Missiles), and the net result of 2 levels for an Aasimar Paladin/Sorcerer is identical to the Drow's pure Sorcerer.
The Cleric should be built largely as a melee'er with respect to feats: i.e. Power Attack, Cleave, Dirty Fighting, Improved Critical.. Make sure you have Expertise for HoF. Buffing is her mode of operation to improve things, and Blurr + Mirror Image + Improved Invisibility were the big reasons to select the Demarch of Mask. She's also a good summoning character, particularly once she reaches level 5+ with Create Undead. ALWAYS consider using Create Undead (as many as possible), resting, and then casting the spell again to double-up. (..the Boneguards are particularly good and start making an appearance at Cleric level 6.) THEN after summoning as many as you can, use the Cleric's Invisibility Sphere to hide your party and just let the Boneguards attack while you are invisible. (.."inch" the Boneguards forward to only make a few enemies react rather than being surrounded by a large group and wasting the Boneguards.) Don't forget that Undead are immune to Cold damage - which can work in your favor if/when you start casting spells like Snilloc's. They are also immune to Horrid Wilting (at higher levels). And for crowd control they are immune to Stinking Cloud.
The Sorcerers are purist casters - utilizing spells for damage and disabling effects.
Start with Shield and Magic Missile.
Selecting additional spells for the Sorcerer's will be crucial. Usually front-load with the better damage spells like Snilloc's Snowball Storm, and add-on defenses like Mirror Image and Protection from Arrows.
Note: Defensive Spells that can be cast on others like Protection from Arrows should ONLY be selected by ONE of the two Sorcerers, whereas a spell like Shield or Mirror Image should be selected by BOTH of the Sorcerers.
Like-wise Utility spells like Knock and See Invisibility should ONLY be selected by One of the Sorcerers. (..more precisely One Sorcerer should select 2nd level spell Knock, and the other should select 2nd level See Invisibility.)
Additionally, If ANY utility spell (or very similar spell) can be derived from the Cleric's spell-book then do NOT select that spell for the Sorcerer.
Generally select damage spells that "scale" in level for as long as possible (as opposed to those that just "top-out" early). Ex. Skull Trap is generally better than Fireball. Fire Arrow is much better than Lightening Bolt and Icelance. Use this selection technique instead of just sticking to spells that are within the elemental damage feats you have for that character.
Finally, one of the Sorcerers should select Improved Invisibility as soon as it's possible to do so - it's a god-like spell in this game for most of the game. (..the other should select Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, though later.) Once you've got that then move onto Mordenkainen's Force Missiles.
Sorcerers Spell Selection:
Note: (1) = character 1; (2) = character 2; (both) = characters 1 & 2.
1. Magic Missile (both), Shield (both).
2.
3. Chromatic Orb (1), Ray of Enfeeblement (2).
4. Snilloc’s Snowball Swarm (both).
5. Mage Armor (1), Grease (2), Mirror Image (both).
6. Skull Trap (both).
7. Grease (1), Chromatic Orb (2), Knock (1), Protection from Arrows (2), Ghost Armor (1), Flame Arrow (2).
8. Improved Invisibility (1), Stoneskin (2).
9. Web (1), *See Invisibility (2), Flame Arrow (1), Slow (2), Blue Fire Shield (both).
10. Sunfire (both).
11. Melf’s Acid Arrows (both), Stinking Cloud (1), Haste (2), Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (both), Dominate Person (both).
12. Improved Haste (1), Acid Fog (2).
13. Mordenkainen’s Force Missiles (both), Chaos (both), Acid Storm (both).
14. Mordenkainen’s Sword (1), Control Undead (2)
15. Lower Resistance (1), Animate Undead (2), Chain Lightening (both), Delayed Fireball Blast (1), Mordenkainen’s Sword (2).
16. Horrid Wilting (both).
17. Mass Invisibility (1), Delayed Fireball Blast (2), Symbol of Hopelessness (both).
18. Wail of the Banshee (both)
19. Fiery Cloud (both), Mass Dominate (1), Executioner’s Eyes (2)
20. Gate (1), Mass Dominate (2).
*note: See Invisibility isn't a requirement with Purge Invisibility from the Cleric class and assuming you obtain it from another character for HoF. With a HoF continuation I'd probably select Web instead so that both of these characters have Web to cast (..particularly for HoF).
Offensive spell Save structure:
Non-save: *Magic Missile, Melf’s Acid Arrow, *Mordenkainen’s Force Missiles
*Note: if the opponent has the spell “Shield” on then neither Magic Missile nor Mordenkainen’s Force Missiles will work. In that instance have the Cleric use Dispel Magic. Additionally both are susceptible to spell resistance, which could also be countered with Lower Resistance cast on that opponent before-hand.
Reflex Save (Evocation): Chromatic Orb (1), Snilloc’s Snowball Swarm (2), Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere (4), Sunfire (5), Acid Storm (6), Chain Lightening (6), Delayed Fireball Blast (7).
Reflex Save (Conjuration): Grease, Web, Flame Arrow, Acid Fog, Fiery Cloud.
Fortitude Save (Conjuration): Stinking Cloud.
Fortitude Save (Necromancy): Ray of Enfeeblement (1), Horrid Wilting (8), Flaying (8), Wail of the Banshee (9).
Reflex Save (Necromancy): Skull Trap (3).
Will Save Necromancy): Control Undead (7).
Will Save (Enchantment): Dominate Person (5), Chaos (5), Mass Dominate (9).
Single Target Damage Spells: 1st level – Magic Missile, Chromatic Orb; 2nd level – Melf’s Acid Arrow; 3rd level – Flame Arrow; 4th level – Mordenkainen’s Force Missiles; 6th level – Chain Lightening (with secondary damage); 7th level - Mordenkainen’s Sword (fall-back measures for single targets).
Radius Target Damage Spells: 2nd level – Snilloc’s Snowball Swarm; 3rd level – Skull Trap; 5th level – Sunfire; 6th level – Acid Storm; 7th level – Delayed Fireball Blast & Suffocate; 8th level – Horrid Wilting; 9th level – Wail of the Banshee.
Lingering Radius Damage Spells: 6th level – Acid Fog; 8th level – Fiery Cloud.
Single Target Disabler Spells: 1st level - Ray of Enfeeblement, Chromatic Orb; 4th – level Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere; 5th level – *Dominate Person.
Radius Target Disabler Spells: 2nd level – See Invisibility; 5th level – Chaos; 8th level - Symbol of Hopelessness; 9th level – *Mass Dominate.
Lingering Radius Disabler Spells: 1st level – Grease; 2nd level – Web, 3rd level – Slow, Stinking Cloud; 6th – Acid Fog.
*Note: Dominate Person is purposefully selected for the very troublesome Slayer Knights of Xvim (..who seem to be otherwise immune to Mass Dominate or Chaos). Both it and Mass Dominate however require that no harm or other effect (..like web or grease) affect those dominated.
Defensive Spells: 1st level – Shield, Mage Armor; 2nd level – Mirror Image, Protection from Arrows; 3rd level – Ghost Armor, Haste; 4th level – Improved Invisibility, Stoneskin, Blue Fire Shield; 7th - level Mass Invisibility.
Enhancement Spells: 3rd level – Haste; 6th level – Improved Haste; 9th level - Executioner's Eyes.
Summoning Spells: 5th level - Animate Dead; 9th level - Gate.
Note: (1) = character 1; (2) = character 2; (both) = characters 1 & 2.
1. Magic Missile (both), Shield (both).
2.
3. Chromatic Orb (1), Ray of Enfeeblement (2).
4. Snilloc’s Snowball Swarm (both).
5. Mage Armor (1), Grease (2), Mirror Image (both).
6. Skull Trap (both).
7. Grease (1), Chromatic Orb (2), Knock (1), Protection from Arrows (2), Ghost Armor (1), Flame Arrow (2).
8. Improved Invisibility (1), Stoneskin (2).
9. Web (1), *See Invisibility (2), Flame Arrow (1), Slow (2), Blue Fire Shield (both).
10. Sunfire (both).
11. Melf’s Acid Arrows (both), Stinking Cloud (1), Haste (2), Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (both), Dominate Person (both).
12. Improved Haste (1), Acid Fog (2).
13. Mordenkainen’s Force Missiles (both), Chaos (both), Acid Storm (both).
14. Mordenkainen’s Sword (1), Control Undead (2)
15. Lower Resistance (1), Animate Undead (2), Chain Lightening (both), Delayed Fireball Blast (1), Mordenkainen’s Sword (2).
16. Horrid Wilting (both).
17. Mass Invisibility (1), Delayed Fireball Blast (2), Symbol of Hopelessness (both).
18. Wail of the Banshee (both)
19. Fiery Cloud (both), Mass Dominate (1), Executioner’s Eyes (2)
20. Gate (1), Mass Dominate (2).
*note: See Invisibility isn't a requirement with Purge Invisibility from the Cleric class and assuming you obtain it from another character for HoF. With a HoF continuation I'd probably select Web instead so that both of these characters have Web to cast (..particularly for HoF).
Offensive spell Save structure:
Non-save: *Magic Missile, Melf’s Acid Arrow, *Mordenkainen’s Force Missiles
*Note: if the opponent has the spell “Shield” on then neither Magic Missile nor Mordenkainen’s Force Missiles will work. In that instance have the Cleric use Dispel Magic. Additionally both are susceptible to spell resistance, which could also be countered with Lower Resistance cast on that opponent before-hand.
Reflex Save (Evocation): Chromatic Orb (1), Snilloc’s Snowball Swarm (2), Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere (4), Sunfire (5), Acid Storm (6), Chain Lightening (6), Delayed Fireball Blast (7).
Reflex Save (Conjuration): Grease, Web, Flame Arrow, Acid Fog, Fiery Cloud.
Fortitude Save (Conjuration): Stinking Cloud.
Fortitude Save (Necromancy): Ray of Enfeeblement (1), Horrid Wilting (8), Flaying (8), Wail of the Banshee (9).
Reflex Save (Necromancy): Skull Trap (3).
Will Save Necromancy): Control Undead (7).
Will Save (Enchantment): Dominate Person (5), Chaos (5), Mass Dominate (9).
Single Target Damage Spells: 1st level – Magic Missile, Chromatic Orb; 2nd level – Melf’s Acid Arrow; 3rd level – Flame Arrow; 4th level – Mordenkainen’s Force Missiles; 6th level – Chain Lightening (with secondary damage); 7th level - Mordenkainen’s Sword (fall-back measures for single targets).
Radius Target Damage Spells: 2nd level – Snilloc’s Snowball Swarm; 3rd level – Skull Trap; 5th level – Sunfire; 6th level – Acid Storm; 7th level – Delayed Fireball Blast & Suffocate; 8th level – Horrid Wilting; 9th level – Wail of the Banshee.
Lingering Radius Damage Spells: 6th level – Acid Fog; 8th level – Fiery Cloud.
Single Target Disabler Spells: 1st level - Ray of Enfeeblement, Chromatic Orb; 4th – level Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere; 5th level – *Dominate Person.
Radius Target Disabler Spells: 2nd level – See Invisibility; 5th level – Chaos; 8th level - Symbol of Hopelessness; 9th level – *Mass Dominate.
Lingering Radius Disabler Spells: 1st level – Grease; 2nd level – Web, 3rd level – Slow, Stinking Cloud; 6th – Acid Fog.
*Note: Dominate Person is purposefully selected for the very troublesome Slayer Knights of Xvim (..who seem to be otherwise immune to Mass Dominate or Chaos). Both it and Mass Dominate however require that no harm or other effect (..like web or grease) affect those dominated.
Defensive Spells: 1st level – Shield, Mage Armor; 2nd level – Mirror Image, Protection from Arrows; 3rd level – Ghost Armor, Haste; 4th level – Improved Invisibility, Stoneskin, Blue Fire Shield; 7th - level Mass Invisibility.
Enhancement Spells: 3rd level – Haste; 6th level – Improved Haste; 9th level - Executioner's Eyes.
Summoning Spells: 5th level - Animate Dead; 9th level - Gate.
Feats:
1st Spell Focus Necromancy, 3rd Spell Focus Evocation, 6th Subvocal Casting, 9th Spirit of Flame, 12th Spell Focus Enchantment, 15th Spell Focus Conjuration, 18th Spell Focus Evocation, 21st Spell Focus Enchantment, 24th Spell Focus Conjuration, 27th Spell Focus Necromancy, 30th Aqua Mortis.
Reasons:
These Sorcerers have a high DC via their high Charisma modifier (..which continues to get better throughout the game). Because of this (and the wide-range of spell schools utilized), a more balanced approach for the build is selecting only one Spell Focus per school at the best time, and doubling-up those spell focuses later in the build.
1st Level: the first offensive spell with a save component is Ray of Enfeeblement, and the first Evocation spell that has a save component is before 3rd level. Ray of Enfeeblement is Necromancy. Additionally, Subvocal Casting can be delayed a bit in the build (to 6th level), but Skull Trap “arrives” at 6th level – so we want Spell Focus Necromancy for that spell.
3rd Level: Chromatic Orb at 3rd level is the first Evocation spell with a save component, so at this time it’s best to select Spell Focus Evocation. (..and Snilloc's comes in one level later.)
6th Level: Subvocal Casting is an awesome feat for any caster, but it’s not as important at very early levels (below level 5).
9th Level: the characters start to get fire-based damage spells at 7th level (Flame Arrow), but they don’t both get it until 9th level. More importantly, it’s there before Sunfire for both characters at 10th level. Surprisingly the most important part is for the fire damage resistance – this, in conjunction with Immunity to Fire (provided by the Cleric) AND Blue Fire Shield’s 50% fire damage reduction, allows both characters to move forward (spaced a bit apart) and fire-off Sunfire without causing each Sorcerer a lot of damage to each other. Spirit of Flame enhances the damage of 3rd level Flame Arrow, 5th level Sunfire, 7th level Delayed Fireball Blast, and 8th level Fiery Cloud.
12th Level: The character starts getting Enchantment spells at 11th level with Hold Monster, and again at 13th level with Chaos. So 12th level is a good time to insert Spell Focus Enchantment.
15th Level: Spell Focus Conjuration is delayed.. ideally it would have come in around level 9, but you can’t have everything.. The nice thing is that most of the Conjuration spells are area effects that have a several-round duration, and a “roll” each round for an opponent in the area effect. So – it’s not like it will be one roll on a “make-or-break” condition. I *think* that even Flame Arrow is calculated per arrow basis; additionally at lower levels few opponents will have high Reflex saves.
18th Level: here we return to improve our main-stay “Evcoation” spells against the really tough opponents, in hopes that those with Improved Evasion will have a more difficult time of making their saves (..and at least causing them half-damage with these spells).
..
30th Level: Aqua Mortis is inserted to get a little extra “oomph” out of Melf’s Acid arrow and Acid Storm.
1st Spell Focus Necromancy, 3rd Spell Focus Evocation, 6th Subvocal Casting, 9th Spirit of Flame, 12th Spell Focus Enchantment, 15th Spell Focus Conjuration, 18th Spell Focus Evocation, 21st Spell Focus Enchantment, 24th Spell Focus Conjuration, 27th Spell Focus Necromancy, 30th Aqua Mortis.
Reasons:
These Sorcerers have a high DC via their high Charisma modifier (..which continues to get better throughout the game). Because of this (and the wide-range of spell schools utilized), a more balanced approach for the build is selecting only one Spell Focus per school at the best time, and doubling-up those spell focuses later in the build.
1st Level: the first offensive spell with a save component is Ray of Enfeeblement, and the first Evocation spell that has a save component is before 3rd level. Ray of Enfeeblement is Necromancy. Additionally, Subvocal Casting can be delayed a bit in the build (to 6th level), but Skull Trap “arrives” at 6th level – so we want Spell Focus Necromancy for that spell.
3rd Level: Chromatic Orb at 3rd level is the first Evocation spell with a save component, so at this time it’s best to select Spell Focus Evocation. (..and Snilloc's comes in one level later.)
6th Level: Subvocal Casting is an awesome feat for any caster, but it’s not as important at very early levels (below level 5).
9th Level: the characters start to get fire-based damage spells at 7th level (Flame Arrow), but they don’t both get it until 9th level. More importantly, it’s there before Sunfire for both characters at 10th level. Surprisingly the most important part is for the fire damage resistance – this, in conjunction with Immunity to Fire (provided by the Cleric) AND Blue Fire Shield’s 50% fire damage reduction, allows both characters to move forward (spaced a bit apart) and fire-off Sunfire without causing each Sorcerer a lot of damage to each other. Spirit of Flame enhances the damage of 3rd level Flame Arrow, 5th level Sunfire, 7th level Delayed Fireball Blast, and 8th level Fiery Cloud.
12th Level: The character starts getting Enchantment spells at 11th level with Hold Monster, and again at 13th level with Chaos. So 12th level is a good time to insert Spell Focus Enchantment.
15th Level: Spell Focus Conjuration is delayed.. ideally it would have come in around level 9, but you can’t have everything.. The nice thing is that most of the Conjuration spells are area effects that have a several-round duration, and a “roll” each round for an opponent in the area effect. So – it’s not like it will be one roll on a “make-or-break” condition. I *think* that even Flame Arrow is calculated per arrow basis; additionally at lower levels few opponents will have high Reflex saves.
18th Level: here we return to improve our main-stay “Evcoation” spells against the really tough opponents, in hopes that those with Improved Evasion will have a more difficult time of making their saves (..and at least causing them half-damage with these spells).
..
30th Level: Aqua Mortis is inserted to get a little extra “oomph” out of Melf’s Acid arrow and Acid Storm.
Note however that on my last game (which was a solo Drow), that the feat progression wasn't as listed.. in fact I seemed to get more feats at lower levels.. but that could just be a faulty memory on my part , and might not have anything to do with how a 3 character party levels-up. I'm pretty sure that some of my extra feats were the result of the Wizard class.
, and might not have anything to do with how a 3 character party levels-up. I'm pretty sure that some of my extra feats were the result of the Wizard class.As for weapons.. only for the Cleric..
Whatever works best for her within her starting proficiency. (..usually "mace".)
At the final battle against Madae - the Brilliant Flail of Wounding. For it's blunt damage and it's +5 enhancement + "Brilliance". HoF the occasional Black Blade of Disaster.
See next post on Dual-classing..
Whatever works best for her within her starting proficiency. (..usually "mace".)
At the final battle against Madae - the Brilliant Flail of Wounding. For it's blunt damage and it's +5 enhancement + "Brilliance". HoF the occasional Black Blade of Disaster.
See next post on Dual-classing..
Dual-classing, or rather - multi-classing. (assuming the level 30 cap.)
For the Sorcerers don't dual them - the reason: every level added counts as +1 to spell penetration, and every added level adds to those spells that keep scaling in damage and duration. If you want to make them Lawful Good then you can add-in 2 levels of Paladin at the end for HoF (with minimal experience point penalties).
For the Cleric: one level of Fighter for the Flail proficiency (for wielding the Brilliant Flail of Wounding) + an extra feat. Basically hit level 20 and then add-in a level of fighter. Another option is adding 10 levels of Druid or interleaving Druid levels with Fighter levels. (..just 3 levels of Druid will provide Barkskin's +3 AC bonus. 6 levels will give you +4 AC bonus.) Optimally it would probably be: (21-25) Fighter, Druid, Fighter, Druid, Druid - and then back to Cleric, or perhaps even at level 26 Fighter again for the extra feat).
Note: for the Cleric you should be looking at 20 in Wisdom (including the addition of points from the Potion of Transference), the rest in Strength.
For the Sorcerers don't dual them - the reason: every level added counts as +1 to spell penetration, and every added level adds to those spells that keep scaling in damage and duration. If you want to make them Lawful Good then you can add-in 2 levels of Paladin at the end for HoF (with minimal experience point penalties).
For the Cleric: one level of Fighter for the Flail proficiency (for wielding the Brilliant Flail of Wounding) + an extra feat. Basically hit level 20 and then add-in a level of fighter. Another option is adding 10 levels of Druid or interleaving Druid levels with Fighter levels. (..just 3 levels of Druid will provide Barkskin's +3 AC bonus. 6 levels will give you +4 AC bonus.) Optimally it would probably be: (21-25) Fighter, Druid, Fighter, Druid, Druid - and then back to Cleric, or perhaps even at level 26 Fighter again for the extra feat).
Note: for the Cleric you should be looking at 20 in Wisdom (including the addition of points from the Potion of Transference), the rest in Strength.
Wow,Wow,Wow!
You really gave a lot of information!
How should I handle thieving skills?
Can I get an even better party by adding 1-3 more characters?
I will definitaly use the three you mentioned, but can I add some more for an even more powerfull party?
Which level will they have reached after normal mode?
Does anybody know what demarch of mask is called in german?
You really gave a lot of information!
How should I handle thieving skills?
Can I get an even better party by adding 1-3 more characters?
I will definitaly use the three you mentioned, but can I add some more for an even more powerfull party?
Which level will they have reached after normal mode?
Does anybody know what demarch of mask is called in german?
I think more characters is more power because the extra xp for a small party eventually makes them too high level for ANY xp. A trivial example: at level 8 they won't get xp from orcs. I can't claim to know optimal builds but these are my fun builds. Druid is pretty fun. A 16 intelligence Half Orc RogueY/BarbarianX is cool(see note below). You still get 5 skill points per level (with barb)and have to cross class to get search/OL/disarm trap. That's the only ones needed. So barbarian can get 2.5 of those and you just top off things with rogue when needed. With 16 intelligence and 18 dexn you are good to go. And then rogue should be strength based for damage and to hit and save feat on weapon finesse. A cleric of Talos can add some select direct damage, same with a cleric of Lathander. You could also make a Paladin1/FighterX.
note: Rogue 1/mage X tiefling with 20 intelligence to start is also a good (better) pick for a rogue but with your party you already have 'blasters' and can use a tank. Barb gets mountains of HP that makes it relevant to play as opposed to rogueY/fighterX. The rage isn't all that good because you can make Bull's strength and champion strength.
note: Rogue 1/mage X tiefling with 20 intelligence to start is also a good (better) pick for a rogue but with your party you already have 'blasters' and can use a tank. Barb gets mountains of HP that makes it relevant to play as opposed to rogueY/fighterX. The rage isn't all that good because you can make Bull's strength and champion strength.
Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
Sloty1984 wrote:Wow,Wow,Wow!
You really gave a lot of information!
How should I handle thieving skills?
Can I get an even better party by adding 1-3 more characters?
I will definitaly use the three you mentioned, but can I add some more for an even more powerfull party?
Which level will they have reached after normal mode?
Does anybody know what demarch of mask is called in german?
Use your Cleric to "strength" force a lock open (..which is nothing more than an "attack" by clicking on your weapon's icon and then on the container that needs to be opened). Once you are at level 3 you can use the spell Bull's strength to improve your strength for a better chance of opening locks. You'll have Knock by 7th level. Traps are never really a problem in this game - just rest or use a healing spell after taking damage.
With a 3 party crew you'll level twice as fast as with the full 6 (..unless you run-out of xp on kills). I *think* that's about optimal for the original pass-through the game with respect to experience points with kills vs. leveling while factoring-in the Drow class (..and no I don't know what the ending level will be, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't level 21 for all 3). Do NOT add anymore (..or at least I wouldn't). With HoF you can add more and level squat those high level characters to fast-level the low level characters.
If at some point in the normal game you are no longer getting experience points for your kills (or rather *most* of your kills), THEN consider adding-in a character at the beginning of the next chapter. (..or go back to the prior chapter and add the character in.) This could still lower your final levels by a level or more however..
Note: IF you do add-in a later-level character, factor-in certain spells. Ex. your Cleric should have the spell Spell Resistance by level 9, so you can add-on spell resistance to your new character - potentially removing the need for another Drow and allowing you to select a race that would level faster. Additionally, if it's a Druid (allowing you access to Barkskin), then factor that into any consideration on multi-classing to Druid for your Cleric (..i.e. *don't* dual the Cleric to Druid).
Here is an old post on party members.. (and remember to factor in the level penalties of all 3 character being Drow.):
http://www.sorcerers.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27809
..no idea about the Demarch of Mask.
Read this guide with respect to later addition party members for HoF purposes:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/552350-icewi ... faqs/55200
I will note though that the fixation here is on AC. There is an alternative, as a decoy for most opponents:
The 8th level spell - Iron Body.
That's +3/50 damage, and not many opponents will have weapons that can deal that kind of damage. (..those that do should be dealt with in other ways - like Domination or Otiluke's Resilient Sphere.)
But your "attacks" won't be very good.. or will they?
Consider a purposefully LOW AC (..well, not truly low - don't want to encourage critical hits).
Err.. what?
Yes, a "low" AC.
Though you'll want Blur, along with most AC sources.. (perhaps it should be considered a "non-epic" AC).
"Dash" should be a prerequisite here.. (..even better by including 1 level of Barbarian). To "kite" around with your enemies - particularly allowing you to run-off and recharge with a healing potion or two. A few items have Freedom of Movement as well.
NOW consider that in conjunction with both Blue and Red Fire Shield + Spirit of Flame and Aegis of Rime, and Death Armor. (..all cast first of course.)
Then add-in Trollish Fortitude (as the last spell cast before Iron Body), and several regeneration items..
..and then add-in several healing potions to quaff regularly.
If things get really bad have another character encase them in Otiluke's Sphere.
Note: this sort of build might look like Drow Male Wizard 27/Rogue 2/Barbarian 1 (Inserting the Rogue levels and Barbarian levels after obtaining level 15 Wizard (where the class first gets Iron Body). Along with typical Wizard feats + the Spirit of Fire and Aegis of Rime, we would want Dash and perhaps even all 3 Armored Arcana's. Remember - the Wizard class get 3 bonus feats by level 15, which is enough to "cover" the 3 Armored Arcana feats. Intelligence (20), Constitution, and Dexterity would be the most important. Charisma would be totally "hosed". i.e. 9/20/16/20/10/5.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/552350-icewi ... faqs/55200
I will note though that the fixation here is on AC. There is an alternative, as a decoy for most opponents:
The 8th level spell - Iron Body.
That's +3/50 damage, and not many opponents will have weapons that can deal that kind of damage. (..those that do should be dealt with in other ways - like Domination or Otiluke's Resilient Sphere.)
But your "attacks" won't be very good.. or will they?
Consider a purposefully LOW AC (..well, not truly low - don't want to encourage critical hits).
Err.. what?
Yes, a "low" AC.
Though you'll want Blur, along with most AC sources.. (perhaps it should be considered a "non-epic" AC).
"Dash" should be a prerequisite here.. (..even better by including 1 level of Barbarian). To "kite" around with your enemies - particularly allowing you to run-off and recharge with a healing potion or two. A few items have Freedom of Movement as well.
NOW consider that in conjunction with both Blue and Red Fire Shield + Spirit of Flame and Aegis of Rime, and Death Armor. (..all cast first of course.)
Then add-in Trollish Fortitude (as the last spell cast before Iron Body), and several regeneration items..
..and then add-in several healing potions to quaff regularly.
If things get really bad have another character encase them in Otiluke's Sphere.
Note: this sort of build might look like Drow Male Wizard 27/Rogue 2/Barbarian 1 (Inserting the Rogue levels and Barbarian levels after obtaining level 15 Wizard (where the class first gets Iron Body). Along with typical Wizard feats + the Spirit of Fire and Aegis of Rime, we would want Dash and perhaps even all 3 Armored Arcana's. Remember - the Wizard class get 3 bonus feats by level 15, which is enough to "cover" the 3 Armored Arcana feats. Intelligence (20), Constitution, and Dexterity would be the most important. Charisma would be totally "hosed". i.e. 9/20/16/20/10/5.
Thanks for the info!
But I would really like to have another melee char, perhaps a spellsword.
There are so many wonderful weapons in this game so having only one char using them seems wrong to me.
Any advice on this?
I use the mod with better bastard-swords should I build a character with dual wield to use them?
Or do you really think 3 characters can rule the game then please convince me in a way?
What is later more effective, 3 level 30 characters or 6 level 30 characters?
But I think it doesnt matter.What matters is to have a lot of fun while playing those parties and I think its a lot of fun to have a party that can do a lot of pain to the other parties.
But I would really like to have another melee char, perhaps a spellsword.
There are so many wonderful weapons in this game so having only one char using them seems wrong to me.
Any advice on this?
I use the mod with better bastard-swords should I build a character with dual wield to use them?
Or do you really think 3 characters can rule the game then please convince me in a way?
What is later more effective, 3 level 30 characters or 6 level 30 characters?
But I think it doesnt matter.What matters is to have a lot of fun while playing those parties and I think its a lot of fun to have a party that can do a lot of pain to the other parties.
Sloty1984 wrote:Thanks for the info!
But I would really like to have another melee char, perhaps a spellsword.
There are so many wonderful weapons in this game so having only one char using them seems wrong to me.
Any advice on this?
I use the mod with better bastard-swords should I build a character with dual wield to use them?
Or do you really think 3 characters can rule the game then please convince me in a way?
What is later more effective, 3 level 30 characters or 6 level 30 characters?
But I think it doesnt matter.What matters is to have a lot of fun while playing those parties and I think its a lot of fun to have a party that can do a lot of pain to the other parties.
I think it's more about your "Normal" run through the game in relation to your HoF run.
Again, for your normal run - try to keep it to 3 characters for most of the game. Then add an additional character. It's that 4th character in the normal game that is really in question (especially in relation to the rest of the party).
One you are into HoF - sure 6 characters.
As far as one Decoy is concerned..
1. Most of the uber AC builds are bullsh!t. Largely owing to utterly unrealistic Monk Wisdom-based AC bonuses and severe muti-class penalties for any type of build but a level 28-30th level character.
2. Those that can be AC decoys are decoys and not much more, though they can become utility characters. What this means from a more practical view-point is that they won't be really excellent OFFENSIVE characters.
IMO what you should do is:
"Split" your party's build.
Following the underlying information in that guide there are 2 salient points:
1. Offensive Magic works reasonably well in a "Normal" run for damage (because opponent hit-points are lower).
2. In HoF however *melee* is "king" for damage (because opponent hit-points are much higher). Also, "disabling" magic still works well (for higher level casters that can penetrate opponent's DC).
Considering that opponents can hit for a lot of damage, a Decoy is the over-riding presentation (in that guide) for dealing with those opponents.. but the fact is that disabling Magic (for all but very few opponents) can accomplish the same thing.
Now that *is* dependent on the number of spells you have to cast of course - Sorcerers/Wizards and Clerics only, and overall Sorcerers/Wizards.
Good spells:
Sorcerers Wizards: Hold Person, Confusion, Otilukes Resilient Sphere, Confusion, Chaos, Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Control Undead, Symbol of Hopelessness, Mass Dominate
Clerics: Hold Person, Greater Command, Symbol of Hopelessness.
Additionally there will be those few opponents (several notable final fights in particular), where disabling spells won't mean anything.
IF (and that's a big IF), you can build a functional character that can act like Decoy at the very end - THEN you are OK, but it's not going to be a big damage dealer.
So maybe a party break-down of:
Starting: "Normal". Lawful Good (x2) and True Neutral.
1. Sorcerer (2 levels of Paladin at end)
2. Sorcerer (2 levels of Paladin at end)
3. Cleric Demarch (melee Damage Dealer)
Adding: "Normal" (..chapter 4 or 5 as needed). Lawful Neutral.
4. Druid/Monk Shifter (Decoy)
Adding: "Normal" (final chapter). Lawful Good.
5. *Monk/Sorcerer/Paladin (melee Dual-wield Damage Dealer)
Starting: HoF. Lawful Evil.
6. (Optional) Sorcerer/Cleric Dreadmaster (enchanter and melee damage dealer).
*Note: this character (#5) is more or less designed to "stand in the corner" and learn (in as much as he can considering that he's a moron), while picking up equipment in that final chapter on the "Normal" game.
For role-playing purposes:
The initial party is a group of Drow investigating the problems in the North and trying to make some money off of the sun-mad races. Better to send up a party that is led by a Neutral mistress with some weaker Good males. Both are less likely to offend the sun-mad, and the weaker males were unsuited to their home.
In their travels a Druid Shifter from the south joins their party in an effort to reach Kuldahar in the north to investigate the reason for the cut-off communication with Kuldahar's Circle.
As they near the mythal's zone of destabilization (..tower of the Severed Hand), they realize that the chaos must be thwarted.
Outer slave pens were found surrounding the tower for eventual use as replacement labor on the tower. Among others, they find a Paladin that had been tortured and was being caged. That Paladin feels an oath of servitude is required for his release, and their wise leader agrees. (..and secretly the Paladin hopes to convert the male Drow to the righteous path as well.)
At the end of the final battle the mythal completely de-stabilizes and creates a time-loop. Through the leader's Wisdom, she realizes that their final battle needed help from Bane - and so while retracing their steps, they enlist the add of a promising young Drow priestess of Bane in hopes of obtaining Bane's favor to stop the time loop by guiding the tower's collapse into Limbo.
..or perhaps something like that.
I've re-read that guide again..
It looks like both the priest of Bane and any Paladin should be introduced for the start of Kuldahar.. (..Priest nets +2 Wisdom from this and the Paladin nets +1 Strength and +1 Wisdom.)
On HoF they get to "double-up" on those benefits (same location, same quests).
As for the "decoy" Druid.. that's probably the character that should be delayed for HoF (..though of course there will be several chapters that will pass before that character is "operational". Still, considering the other characters that shouldn't be a problem, and really there are only a few battles at the end where the decoy will be particularly beneficial.
It looks like both the priest of Bane and any Paladin should be introduced for the start of Kuldahar.. (..Priest nets +2 Wisdom from this and the Paladin nets +1 Strength and +1 Wisdom.)
On HoF they get to "double-up" on those benefits (same location, same quests).
As for the "decoy" Druid.. that's probably the character that should be delayed for HoF (..though of course there will be several chapters that will pass before that character is "operational". Still, considering the other characters that shouldn't be a problem, and really there are only a few battles at the end where the decoy will be particularly beneficial.
Sloty1984 wrote:Why does your cleric have that high charisma?
Turn Undead..
It might well be better to lower it in favor of Strength or Wisdom..
The Sorcerer's are much better "worked-out" than the Cleric..
(..the Sorcerers should be Lawful Good btw for dual-classing at the end to Paladins for 2 levels.)Edit:
Thought it over a bit more:
Drow Female:18/20/14/5/18/5 (all Wisdom.)
Lawful Evil (Demarch of Mask)
Cleric 1/Monk 1/Cleric 6/Fighter 1/Cleric 2/ Fighter 1/Cleric 17/Rogue 1.
Skill Focus: Concentration (all).
1.Power Attack, 3.Cleave, 6.Dodge, 8.Spell Focus Enchantment, 9.Spell Focus Enchantment, 12. Improved Critical & Dirty Fighting, 15. Subvocal Casting, 18.Dash.. (..I'd probably do Necromancy focuses next).
This provides:
Level 1 - +5 AC from Dexterity bonus, and +4 Attack & Damage.
Level 2 - +4 AC from Wisdom bonus, and leverages Dexterity’s +5 Reflex save with Evasion.
..+1 AC improvements again occur at level 6 (Dodge), 8, 16, (..continuing every 2 attribute points).
The first level of Fighter is installed *after* access to Boneguards (from Animate Dead – which occur at Cleric level 6 instead of 5).
Spell Focus Enchantments are added for Sleep, Hold Person, and Greater Command (..particularly Greater Command).
26 Levels of Cleric for ultimately +8 (Strength, Dexterity, & Constitution) from Draw Upon Holy Might.
It's NOT designed for the Potion of Transcendence.. That should be given to your "Decoy" character.
It obviously gives-up a competitive Turn Undead, AND it gives up spell *conversion* (to same level healing spells).
..and clearly there will need to be some revision on the roll-playing concept.
Sloty1984 wrote:"Cleric 1/Monk 1/Cleric 6/Fighter 1/Cleric 2/ Fighter 1/Cleric 17/Rogue 1."
What does this mean exactly? 1 level as cleric, 1 as monk, 6 as cleric and so on?
What other cleric school do you recommend besides mask?
Yes, that's the progression.
For a melee character I wouldn't recommend any other cleric.. It's because of Blur, Mirror Image, and Improved Invisibility - all at long duration/high effect. Of those 3, the ONLY one that can be provided by another character is Improved Invisibility.
Plus at lower levels you have Sleep.
And there are several other nice spells as well:
http://www.gamebanshee.com/icewinddalei ... k.php#null
Of course that is based on utilizing the character as a melee character for each level in a normal game. (..and it's built to be a decent disabling caster for HoF with add-in melee once opponents are disabled.. and of course it performs that same function in a normal game as well.)
Thanks!
What do you think about dual-wielding with the cleric?
What do you think about replacing one of the sorcerers by a melee capable mage?
Perhaps some barb and fighter levels but mainly a mage?
Then I could use all the scrolls I find and also have some use for all the nice weapons.
It should still be a capable bombardier.With bonus feats from mage it should be possible to create some sort of hybrid dont you think so?
What do you think about dual-wielding with the cleric?
What do you think about replacing one of the sorcerers by a melee capable mage?
Perhaps some barb and fighter levels but mainly a mage?
Then I could use all the scrolls I find and also have some use for all the nice weapons.
It should still be a capable bombardier.With bonus feats from mage it should be possible to create some sort of hybrid dont you think so?