What stats do I need to dual class?
What stats do I need to dual class?
I want a Ranger/Cleric dual class. What stats do I need?
Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
Assuming you start as a Ranger, 15 in Strength, Dexterity and Constitution and 17 Wisdom. In the unlikely event you start as a Ceric, 15 Wisdom and 17 in the other three.
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
I guess that's true Gawain, although I always feel like I'm cheating when I re-roll, comes from many years, decades even, of playing 'real' AD&D I suppose. When playing BG1 I must confess even when playing a cleric I don't put the emphasis on wisdom, just because I know I'm going to find three tomes of understanding; very naughty! 
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
I admit, I'm an avid reroller. It kind of bothers me that there's no (or at least very minimal) difference between 11 and 15 in a stat. (These number are estimate guesses, I don't know the tables by heart.) So if I'm rerolling, might as well go all the way.
Besides, I consider it more in character if your Ranger (in this case) is actually good in the things that Rangers are supposed to be good at.
Besides, I consider it more in character if your Ranger (in this case) is actually good in the things that Rangers are supposed to be good at.
Gawain, in original DnD 3-15 gave +1 ; 16-17 gave +2 ; 18 gave +3
3d6 in front of the DM. You could pay 2 to get 1 on certain stats. But some like constitution you couldn't for the RP reason of you can't train your health (I might remember wrong).
3d6 in front of the DM. You could pay 2 to get 1 on certain stats. But some like constitution you couldn't for the RP reason of you can't train your health (I might remember wrong).
Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
There were several different options for how you created a character for the DM to choose from, or of course she or he could make up their own.
Lot of spare time between innings so:
The penalties and bonuses for the different attributes.
Strength
3 -3 to hit/-1 damage
4 = -2/-1
5 = -1/0 - Here or lower character can only be a mage
6 -15 none (weight allowances, opening doors and bend bars varied)
16 = +1/0 Max for female elf
17 = +1/+1 Max for female dwarf/female half-elf/male halfling
18 = +1/+2 Max for all non-fighter classed (even half-orcs!)
01 - 50 = +1/+3 Max for female human/male gnome
51 - 75 = +2/+3 Max for male elf/female half-orc
76 - 90 = +2/+4 Max for male half-elf
91-99 = +2/+5 Max for male dwarf or male half-orc
100 = +3/+6 Max for a human male
Intelligence, the only differences were for the number of spells a mage could learn. Again there were racial limits. A half orc could only have up to 17, if you had 5 or less you could only be a fighter
Wisdom, for clerics/druids there was a spell bonus
5 or lower and the character could only be a thief
13 1 bonus first level spell
14 ditto - max for a half-orc
15 1 second level spell
16 ditto
17 1 third level spell - Max for a hlafling, minimum for 6th level spells
18 ditto - Minimum for 7th level spells
Dexterity
3 = -3 attacking (with missiles)/+4 defensive adjustment
4 = -2/+3
5 = -1/+2 this or lower and the character could only be a cleric
6 = 0/+1 \minimum for a male half-elf
15 = 0/-1
16 = +1/-2
17 = +2/+-3 Max for a dwarf
18 =+3/-4
Constitution
3 = -2 per hit die System Shock Survival 35% Resurrection Survival 40%*
4 = -1 40/45
5 = -1 45/50 here or lower can only be an Illuisionist (separate class in 1ED)
6 = -1 50/55 Minimum for an elf or half -elf
15 = +1 91/94
16 = +2 95/96
17 = +3 (fighter classes only others +2) 97/98
18 = +4 (fighter classes only others +2) 99/100
* Raise dead wasn't automatic success, if you rolled under the SSS/RS you were permanently dead unless you had a wish handy
Charisma not much worth noting, mainly used for max number of followers, loyalty base for followers and reaction adjustment. Worth noting that half-orcs could only have a mas of 12 and dwarves 16.
Lot of spare time between innings so:
The penalties and bonuses for the different attributes.
Strength
3 -3 to hit/-1 damage
4 = -2/-1
5 = -1/0 - Here or lower character can only be a mage
6 -15 none (weight allowances, opening doors and bend bars varied)
16 = +1/0 Max for female elf
17 = +1/+1 Max for female dwarf/female half-elf/male halfling
18 = +1/+2 Max for all non-fighter classed (even half-orcs!)
01 - 50 = +1/+3 Max for female human/male gnome
51 - 75 = +2/+3 Max for male elf/female half-orc
76 - 90 = +2/+4 Max for male half-elf
91-99 = +2/+5 Max for male dwarf or male half-orc
100 = +3/+6 Max for a human male
Intelligence, the only differences were for the number of spells a mage could learn. Again there were racial limits. A half orc could only have up to 17, if you had 5 or less you could only be a fighter
Wisdom, for clerics/druids there was a spell bonus
5 or lower and the character could only be a thief
13 1 bonus first level spell
14 ditto - max for a half-orc
15 1 second level spell
16 ditto
17 1 third level spell - Max for a hlafling, minimum for 6th level spells
18 ditto - Minimum for 7th level spells
Dexterity
3 = -3 attacking (with missiles)/+4 defensive adjustment
4 = -2/+3
5 = -1/+2 this or lower and the character could only be a cleric
6 = 0/+1 \minimum for a male half-elf
15 = 0/-1
16 = +1/-2
17 = +2/+-3 Max for a dwarf
18 =+3/-4
Constitution
3 = -2 per hit die System Shock Survival 35% Resurrection Survival 40%*
4 = -1 40/45
5 = -1 45/50 here or lower can only be an Illuisionist (separate class in 1ED)
6 = -1 50/55 Minimum for an elf or half -elf
15 = +1 91/94
16 = +2 95/96
17 = +3 (fighter classes only others +2) 97/98
18 = +4 (fighter classes only others +2) 99/100
* Raise dead wasn't automatic success, if you rolled under the SSS/RS you were permanently dead unless you had a wish handy
Charisma not much worth noting, mainly used for max number of followers, loyalty base for followers and reaction adjustment. Worth noting that half-orcs could only have a mas of 12 and dwarves 16.
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
If I still have a copy it is battle scarred from reading over and over
Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
Not 2Ed, just my trusty 1ED PHB and DMG, plus Unearthed Arcana. As far aas I know there wasn't any difference between the attribute set up in the two editions, most of the changes were pretty superficial except that they did away with the Monk (separate tome for that, Oriental something or other) and Psionics, they also nerfed the Ranger class for some reason. I used to own copies of the 2ED core books, but lost them somewhere on my travels as they never got used, we stuck to our own hybrid version of 1ED.
Most of the changes in 2Ed were in fact a compilation of alternatives and additions that had earlier appeared in editions of the old much loved Dragon magazine, so we already had them and bent them to our way of gaming.
Sadly they didn't incorporate some of the better ideas from the Dragon, such as a perception attribute, but that was no problem for us as we already had them anyway, but it was a loss for people who didn't have access to back copies of Dragon. Another loss was the original Deities & Demigods (I sadly lost mine) which incorporated stuff based on Michael Moorcock's and Fritz Leibers books, Sadly Moorcock's publishers got mean spirited about copyright!
Most of the changes in 2Ed were in fact a compilation of alternatives and additions that had earlier appeared in editions of the old much loved Dragon magazine, so we already had them and bent them to our way of gaming.
Sadly they didn't incorporate some of the better ideas from the Dragon, such as a perception attribute, but that was no problem for us as we already had them anyway, but it was a loss for people who didn't have access to back copies of Dragon. Another loss was the original Deities & Demigods (I sadly lost mine) which incorporated stuff based on Michael Moorcock's and Fritz Leibers books, Sadly Moorcock's publishers got mean spirited about copyright!
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
They lost their surprise bonus, used to be they could only gets surprised on a roll of 1 on a D6, but surprised others on a 1-3, major advantage to the party.
They also used to get two D8 hit die for their first level, and got a mix of Druidic and Mage spells from level 8 onwards. However in 1ED they didn't get hide in shadows, so the nerfing reference is just a personal thing, not a major deal, but as invisibility spells were common place I found what was taken away had more impact than what was given.
Another difference is minimum stat requirements, it used to be 13 strength and intelligence, 14 wisdom and constitution.
Another big difference between 1ED and 2ED is half-orcs were a playable race in the first but not the second, Bioware apparently didn't get the memo!
I have 2ED on CD I remembered this morning, it's available from Amazon, but the price!!!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Advanced-Dungeo ... 0786915439
At least I know know if I'm ever strapped for cash I can sell my copy, that's like a ten fold increase over what I paid.
What I missed yesterday (from 2ED):
Strength
19 +3/+7
20 +3/+8
21 +4/+9
22 +4/+10
23 +5/+11
24 +6/+12
25 +7/+14
Intelligence, once you reach 19 you start gaining immunity to Illusion spells 1st level @ 19 up to 7th level at 25
Wisdom magical defence adjustment/bonus spell/immunities
19 +4 1st, 3rd Immune to cause fear, charm person,
command, friends, hypnotism
20 +4 2nd, 4th Immune to forget, hold person, ray of
enfeeblement, scare
21 +4 3rd, 5th Immune to fear
22 +4 4th, 5th Immune to charm monster, confusion,
emotion, fumble, suggestion
23 +4 1st, 6th Immune to chaos, feeblemind, hold
monster, magic jar, quest
24 +4 5th, 6th Immune to geas, mass suggestion, rod of
rulership
25+4 6th, 7th Immune to antipathy/sympathy, death
spell, mass charm
Dexterity
19+3/-4
20+3/-4
21+4/-5
22+4/-5
23+4/-5
24+5/-6
25+5/-6
Constitution HP bonus/System Shock Survival/Resurrection survival/poison saving throw bonus/Regeneration
19 +2 (+5) 99% 100% +1 Nil
20 +2 (+5) 99% 100% +1 1/6 turns
21 +2 (+6) 99% 100% +2 1/5 turns
22 +2 (+6) 99% 100% +2 1/4 turns
23 +2 (+6) 99% 100% +3 1/3 turns
24 +2 (+7) 99% 100% +3 1/2 turns
25 +2 (+7) 100% 100% +4 1/1 turn
They also used to get two D8 hit die for their first level, and got a mix of Druidic and Mage spells from level 8 onwards. However in 1ED they didn't get hide in shadows, so the nerfing reference is just a personal thing, not a major deal, but as invisibility spells were common place I found what was taken away had more impact than what was given.
Another difference is minimum stat requirements, it used to be 13 strength and intelligence, 14 wisdom and constitution.
Another big difference between 1ED and 2ED is half-orcs were a playable race in the first but not the second, Bioware apparently didn't get the memo!
I have 2ED on CD I remembered this morning, it's available from Amazon, but the price!!!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Advanced-Dungeo ... 0786915439
At least I know know if I'm ever strapped for cash I can sell my copy, that's like a ten fold increase over what I paid.
What I missed yesterday (from 2ED):
Strength
19 +3/+7
20 +3/+8
21 +4/+9
22 +4/+10
23 +5/+11
24 +6/+12
25 +7/+14
Intelligence, once you reach 19 you start gaining immunity to Illusion spells 1st level @ 19 up to 7th level at 25
Wisdom magical defence adjustment/bonus spell/immunities
19 +4 1st, 3rd Immune to cause fear, charm person,
command, friends, hypnotism
20 +4 2nd, 4th Immune to forget, hold person, ray of
enfeeblement, scare
21 +4 3rd, 5th Immune to fear
22 +4 4th, 5th Immune to charm monster, confusion,
emotion, fumble, suggestion
23 +4 1st, 6th Immune to chaos, feeblemind, hold
monster, magic jar, quest
24 +4 5th, 6th Immune to geas, mass suggestion, rod of
rulership
25+4 6th, 7th Immune to antipathy/sympathy, death
spell, mass charm
Dexterity
19+3/-4
20+3/-4
21+4/-5
22+4/-5
23+4/-5
24+5/-6
25+5/-6
Constitution HP bonus/System Shock Survival/Resurrection survival/poison saving throw bonus/Regeneration
19 +2 (+5) 99% 100% +1 Nil
20 +2 (+5) 99% 100% +1 1/6 turns
21 +2 (+6) 99% 100% +2 1/5 turns
22 +2 (+6) 99% 100% +2 1/4 turns
23 +2 (+6) 99% 100% +3 1/3 turns
24 +2 (+7) 99% 100% +3 1/2 turns
25 +2 (+7) 100% 100% +4 1/1 turn
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
I know it's double posting, but felt I needed to break things down.
The most 'nefed' class of all, except for assassins which were removed completely, was the Bard.
In 1ED a bard was hard to get, it was effectively a tripled class, first you had to be a fighter up to 7th level. You then needed to dual class to a thief (so minimum 15 strength and 17 dex needed); at 8th level you could then 'triple' class to a Bard (if you had the required attributes), without losing your thief or fighter abilities (which you just regained). Which meant you could have weapon specialisation, used the fighter's attack table and use any weapon and back-stab with it, in extremis you could also use any armour.
The most 'nefed' class of all, except for assassins which were removed completely, was the Bard.
In 1ED a bard was hard to get, it was effectively a tripled class, first you had to be a fighter up to 7th level. You then needed to dual class to a thief (so minimum 15 strength and 17 dex needed); at 8th level you could then 'triple' class to a Bard (if you had the required attributes), without losing your thief or fighter abilities (which you just regained). Which meant you could have weapon specialisation, used the fighter's attack table and use any weapon and back-stab with it, in extremis you could also use any armour.
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
No Gawain, you got druid spells.
Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
Rangers used to get Druid and Mage spells at alternate levels from 8 onward, starting with a first level Druid Spell at 8th, 1st level Mage spell at 9th etc..
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, misunderstood. No, as Claudius said, just Druid spells. It was an optional class of course it was up to the DM whether he/she permitted them.
The big difference getting mage spells meant to a Ranger was Find Familiar, more hit points, and if they got lucky (or the DM was generous, or wishes were available) that would mean either a Brownie (LG) or a Pseudo Dragon. If the latter then on top of a lot more hit points the Ranger would also get 35% magic resistance.
The big difference getting mage spells meant to a Ranger was Find Familiar, more hit points, and if they got lucky (or the DM was generous, or wishes were available) that would mean either a Brownie (LG) or a Pseudo Dragon. If the latter then on top of a lot more hit points the Ranger would also get 35% magic resistance.
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
There is a sort of logic to it. Bards were a Celtic 'class' so it sort of makes sense that they would learn spells from Druids.
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]