Gender Preconceptions - No Spam

[VoodooDali]

CE, I'm all for it. Let's start transplanting uteri and wait for the fun to begin. I would love to see a man ovulate, menstruate, get pregnant, etc.

Any volunteers for uterine transplantation?

This reminds me, though... There's a great anthropology book called, "Nisa." It's the life story of a Kalahari bush woman. At the very end of the book is an appendix with an interesting study--they took daily blood samples of Kalahari women and American women (I don't remember the length of time this went on), and compared them--no major differences in hormonal levels. They then compared the experiences of Kalahari women during menstruation to American women's experiences. Basically, the Kalahari women did not report PMS or moodswings. They said they only experienced cramps. When told that American women often felt very depressed at this time, one of the Kalahari women said, "Their men must not be having enough sex with them during their period." The anthropologist who did the study (I don't recall her name) surmised that most of the emotional symptoms attributed to women's hormones were more cultural than physical--that women are taught it is such a nasty, dirty thing (think about orthodox jews--their women aren't allowed to sleep with their husbands during menstruation because they are unclean)--that they naturally feel depressed about themselves. I don't think that anyone has tried to do the experiment again and test that hypothesis, but it sure is interesting.

[Mr Sleep]

Originally posted by C Elegans:
<STRONG>To answer Sleeps question in the middle of the general gender role discussion - no, I can't think of any career that should not be open to both sexes, just like I can't think of any career that shouldn't be open to people of all sexual orientations or ethnic origins.</STRONG>

What about cutting down trees? That is a horrible job.

@VDali, an interesting proposition, how much are you offering in incentive?

[fable]

Maharlika writes:
Pt.2 They're produced by various glands under the majesterial if kinky supervision of the brain. - true. However, sex hormones are produced in glands called gonads. Gonads are not only found in the brain. The testicles are considered to be gonads. This explains why the castrati came to be. The primary reason for having their jewels removed prior ro puberty is to prevent the sex hormones (testosterone) from "breaking" the voice. So you end up with men with high octave (I was about to write high-octane ) capability.

CE beat me to the punch, but I want to again emphasize that testicular castration does not prevent the development of male hormones. In the case of the castrati, it did arrest the change in vocal registers at puberty, but it neither prevented erection nor consummation.

It had one other curious effect: castrati were noted for maintaining full, glossy heads of hair throughout their lives. In other words, they didn't suffer from hormonally induced alopecia, which is the second highest cause of male pattern baldness (after genetic disposition).

[Gwalchmai]

Originally posted by C Elegans:
<STRONG>If Gwally was here, he could provide us all with much more detailed and reliable information than I can - let's hope he shows up.</STRONG>

Yeah, where is that guy? (Though I doubt he is all that knowledgeable)

Originally posted by Josh:
<STRONG>Also, I used to have the impression that old people didn't play games.</STRONG>

Good thing Gwally isn’t here. He’d have to beat you over the head with his cane!

Originally posted by VoodooDali:
<STRONG>When I've played games online where I have a partner--and games are weird in general since they are so competitive--if my partner is male and assumes I'm male, and I make a mistake--he really gives me a hard time, a lot of insults, etc. If he assumes I'm female, he will often say, "That's okay." I guess the underlying belief is that I'm mentally handicapped, and so can't be expected to perform as well in the game.</STRONG>

He may be making NO assumptions about your intelligence. More likely, he is coming on to you.

Originally posted by Fas:
<STRONG> Women are far more emotionally instable than men.</STRONG>

While this may or may not be the case, I would argue from personal experience that women develop a stronger social support group, allowing them to deal with emotional issues in a more healthy way. Men tend to respond more primitively, and failing to achieve emotional satisfaction by chest-beating and the destruction of nearby vegetation, they usually just go postal.

Originally posted by VoodooDali:
<STRONG>Another thing this brings to mind, is that when I tell people my age and older that I'm really into gaming, I often get reactions of disgust! They think I'm wasting my life.</STRONG>

I get around this by not telling most people about my dirty little secret. Yes, people seem to think that it is somehow on the same level as attending strip clubs and the dog track. Whereas I consider it simply a diversion, a cut above most television programs.

Originally posted by Fable in response to Maharlika:
<STRONG>Funny. I'm the one in my family who sees color combination possibilities, shapes superimposed upon an empty room, the way several items can subtly reinforce the image of a central piece of furniture or a painting, etc. My wife asks about the plumbing, the siding, the insulation, etc, when we look at a new house. She also replaced a wall in her old house, before I ever knew her, doing all the work herself.</STRONG>

While Maharlika’s generalization about gender specific differences in perceptions and mental wiring MAY be true if statistical data are used, your anecdotal evidence shows the extreme variability inherent in male/female behavior comparisons. However, anecdotal evidence does not disprove a statistical trend. Having said that, I would postulate that the variability involved any gender comparisons will make statistical evidence harder to be believed, and arguments more lively.

Originally posted by Dragon Wench:
<STRONG>And I've also noticed that sometimes men and women are treated differently on this board. Men who are often somewhat combative with one another, will react quite differently to the female members of sym.</STRONG>

Try as we might, most of us just can’t get past our chromosomes all the time. By the same token, the women on this board may sometimes opt for a charming or flirtatious answer to a question rather than a serious answer if talking to a male.

Originally posted by Mr. Sleep:
<STRONG>The interesting thing is how many men see these images and are not impressed. RPG's are a good example of this, i find the scantly clad female on the box exposing all but her nipples very patronising. The idea that a game is sold to us through a half naked woman seems trite, surely the quality of the game is the important part, not the hottie on the cover</STRONG>

This is a good point. We see these “hotties” so much that we become inured to the intended affect. But, to what extent do these images invade our subconscious, causing us to fall prey to a Hollywood-based ideal for what women should look like? Because of the unnatural body types displayed, do males then begin to only crave women with large breasts and boyish hips? And do women then begin to starve themselves and submit to plastic surgery?

Originally posted by Maharlika:
<STRONG>Morphologically speaking, how would you explain the differences between males and females? Like, why has Nature dictated that human males would be much stronger (physically) than women? Why would women have more adipose tissues than males (the answer for this query is obvious --- pregnancy)? Why the facial(or absence) hair? Why the broad shoulders? Why the gruff voice? Why the sweet voice?</STRONG>

Actually, it may be that males are simply more variable than females in many physical aspects. Living in developed countries, humans adapt to the high quantity of nutrients available to them. Men grow taller and heavier than women, simply because women are limited in variability due to their body’s design for childbearing. The reverse is also true. In nutritionally stressed situations, such as basic agricultural societies, it is not uncommon for the average male height and weight to be less than that of the female average. In these cases, they may be undernourished but not malnourished, i.e. “Short but healthy.”

Why do women (on average) have sweet voices? Its one of those nasty results of evolution and selection, called neotony. Everyone who looks at a helpless baby, with its large head, large eyes, high-pitched voice, and smooth and hairless skin, will have an innate urge to take care of it. We all think that puppies and kittens are just adorable. Well, this is one of those fascinating little tricks of nature that encourages us to take care of the helpless by growing attached and protective of them. In humans, these child-like traits are continued in the average woman as she grows into adulthood - hairless, higher-pitched voice; and some traits are enhanced through unnatural means: eye makeup to make the eyes look larger and lipstick to give that suckling look. Calista Flockhart is a good example of the “lollipop” look (big head, small body) that some men seem to find attractive today. Its been happening for centuries. Without engendering a basic care response from men, there would be little emotional reason for men to stick around. As everyone knows, procreation takes about five minutes for a guy and about 9 months plus 18 years for a girl.

Originally posted by VoodooDali:
<STRONG>This reminds me, though... There's a great anthropology book called, "Nisa." It's the life story of a Kalahari bush woman. At the very end of the book is an appendix with an interesting study--they took daily blood samples of Kalahari women and American women (I don't remember the length of time this went on), and compared them--no major differences in hormonal levels. They then compared the experiences of Kalahari women during menstruation to American women's experiences. Basically, the Kalahari women did not report PMS or moodswings. They said they only experienced cramps. When told that American women often felt very depressed at this time, one of the Kalahari women said, "Their men must not be having enough sex with them during their period." The anthropologist who did the study (I don't recall her name) surmised that most of the emotional symptoms attributed to women's hormones were more cultural than physical--that women are taught it is such a nasty, dirty thing (think about orthodox jews--their women aren't allowed to sleep with their husbands during menstruation because they are unclean)--that they naturally feel depressed about themselves. I don't think that anyone has tried to do the experiment again and test that hypothesis, but it sure is interesting.</STRONG>

Nutritional and physical stress can have huge affects on the regularity and intensity of menstruation. There is also extreme individual variability. These will directly affect the amount of hormones produced, and thus the “emotional symptoms” associated with them. Direct comparisons between !Kung women and American women in this case should be suspect.

Marjorie Shostak wrote Nisa.

[fable]

Gwalchmai writes:
While Maharlika’s generalization about gender specific differences in perceptions and mental wiring MAY be true if statistical data are used, your anecdotal evidence shows the extreme variability inherent in male/female behavior comparisons. However, anecdotal evidence does not disprove a statistical trend. Having said that, I would postulate that the variability involved any gender comparisons will make statistical evidence harder to be believed, and arguments more lively.

I didn't include the anecdote to disprove statistics (either good, bad or ugly), but precisely because Maharlika's generalization was based on personal observation. I'd have known better than to offer anecdotes against good, solid research. I may not be the smartest protein in the DNA strand of the universe, but give me credit for that much.

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

[Gwalchmai]

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>I didn't include the anecdote to disprove statistics (either good, bad or ugly), but precisely because Maharlika's generalization was based on personal observation. I'd have known better than to offer anecdotes against good, solid research. I may not be the smartest protein in the DNA strand of the universe, but give me credit for that much. </STRONG>

Oh, I give you heaps of credit, my alien friend, and I think you know that. I wasn’t assuming that Maharlika was making a statistical argument, nor was I assuming that you were attempting to refute it with anecdotal evidence. However, such arguments and illogical rebuttals are so common in everyday life, that I wouldn’t be surprised if others reading your statement might think that you had proved some point that you really weren’t intending to prove. I, personally, am very irritated by the use of anecdotes to ‘disprove’ valid generalizations. It’s a personal pet peeve. I see it used frequently in politics, e.g.: “Your tax plan gives 90% of the money to the wealthiest 1% in the country!” “No, under my tax plan Billy Bob, here, his wife Thelma Lou, and their sixteen kids will get 600 dollars in cold, hard cash right before Christmas!” Your statement gave me the opportunity to rail against such illogical debate practices.

However, the main thing that I wanted to point out is the tremendous variability inherent in gender differences and how this variability weakens, but not necessarily disproves, statistical generalizations on the subject. This is one subject where anecdotal tales can really spice up the discussion and make it fun, as long as everyone realizes that there probably will never be a final, irrefutable conclusion.

[CM]

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>I know you mean this amusingly, but I'd gladly step back and let you experience the fury of my wife at such a remark--and I'd laugh, too. I'm evil, cruel and sadistic, that way. </STRONG>

Been very busy in real life.
So i missed this.
But one request don't let her read this i beg you!!

[C Elegans]

posted by Fable:
<STRONG>I've also been given to understand that men go through lunar cycles. @CE, do you know of any scientific studies that have been done to show what sort of affects these cycles have on men, where the "high" and "low" point of each cycle commences, and whether the cycle is conditioned, as it is for women, by the so-called "dominant" female (or in men's cases, possible male) in the group?

</STRONG>

Men certainly have hormonal cycles, but I have not heard anything about synchronisation of cycles, as is seen among women. I am however far from an expert on neuroendocrinology, so that I haven't seen it does not mean such studies have not been done.

posted by Maharilka:
<STRONG>BUT OF COURSE! HOW COULD I EVER FORGET!!! *slaps forehead and puts foot in the mouth*

</STRONG>

Ah, we all mix up the terms sometimes, but for this discussion the statement that "gonads are not only in the brain" gave a whole new dimension to the old sterotype than men think with their genetalia

posted by VoodooDali:
<STRONG>Let's start transplanting uteri and wait for the fun to begin. I would love to see a man ovulate, menstruate, get pregnant, etc.

</STRONG>

It would certainly be nice to have a choice

Regarding PMS: The discussion about PMS often gets infected for various reasons, and some people (more women than men) get angry when I present what I know from research in this area, but here goes:

There is a medical condition called PMDD, Prementrual dysphoric disorder. PMDD has specific and set diagnosis criteria, and it is estimated that some 2-3% of fertile women suffer from PMDD. PMDD cause severe suffering - we are now talking about women who have to take sickness leave from work, who become so emotionally affected so they consider suicide, perhaps beat their children, etc. I'm currently involved in a study of this group of patients, and belive me - this is far from what people mean by PMS, this is a psychiatric condition and can also be treated with SSRI (antidepressants affecting the serotonin system).

Then we have the condition called PMS, premenstrual syndrom. Here the problem starts from a research point of view. For instance, different studies of the frequency of PMS show everything from 5-90% of fertile women suffering from PMS. This is mainly because of three problems:
1. There is not a globally set standard for what PMS should mean. Some professionals keep to a rather strict set of diagnosis criteria that is similar to the PMDD set, just less severe in degree. Others use the more popular sense of the term.
2. There are about 100 known physical and emotional symptoms of PMS. Some studies include women who only have 1 of the 100, some include only women who have a minimum number of symptoms, and some only include women who experience some kind of distress because of the symptoms.
3. Method for how the data is collected. In studies where psychologists and psychiatrists have collected data by interviewing women about their symptoms, about 5-40% report they have PMS. However, when self-assessment is used (by phone or by filling in paper forms) is used, as many as 70-90% report they have PMS.

Studies show that half of the women who seek medical care for PMS, does not have PMS according to the medical, "stricter" criteria I mentioned above.

What conclusion can we draw from this? We should be very suspicious if 10-15% fulfil the medical criteria, but up to 90% say they have PMS.

Let's look at some checkpoints used my many professionals, based at what is known about PMS from a medical view:

1. Symptoms are both physical and emotional.
2. Symptoms have their onset about 2 weeks after the last menstruation day, they peak around 1 week before next menstruation, and they increase before next menstruation starts. 2-3 days before menstruation onset, symptoms have more or less vanished.
3. Symptoms cause some kind of physical, social or emotional distress. (For instance, if your breast swell but don't ache and you don't care about it, you don't have PMS)

If the 3 points above don't fit, then you most probably don't have PMS. Either you have some other condition, or your symptoms might be caused by expectancy, like a self-fulfilling profecy, or the symptoms are an expression of some other problem that might need to be addressed.

posted by Sleep:
<STRONG>What about cutting down trees? That is a horrible job. </STRONG>

Yes, it's horrible. The tree cutter my family has hired for many years, is now in a wheelchair after a fall However, whereas one might argue that human males are more disposable than women because of the reproduction system, males are certainly no more disposable in terms of general value for child rearing and other species- and society-preserving activities. So no, I see no reason why men should and females should not cut down trees. Trees of the size you cut down manually are not very physcially heavy to take down either - a small, lightweight and physically weak person as myself, has no problem with climbing up a tree with a chainsaw strapped around the shoulders, it would be different if you had to hold it with you hands while climbing. If you want to cut down a tree in one piece instead of chopping it up, it's even easier.

EDIT: I might add something about what can be done to ease real PMS symptoms: Sex is actually good, women with abdominal pain often experience pain relief due ot sexual activity. Physcial exercise in general is good. Coffee should be avoided. Good sleep is recommended, as is increase of carbohydrates and calcium intake.

[ 11-17-2001: Message edited by: C Elegans ]

[Maharlika]

CE said...

Ah, we all mix up the terms sometimes, but for this discussion the statement that "gonads are not only in the brain" gave a whole new dimension to the old sterotype than men think with their genetalia

THANKS CE! I feel better already! ... errr, WAIT A MINUTE! I didn't like the sound of that last part! *slaps forehead again upon realizing... *

Hmmm... re: Sleepy's poser about work, couldn't come up with one, but I'm aware that some companies are RELUCTANT to take in female employees (esp married ones) since these women getting pregnant means loss of productive manpower hours (maternity leave) plus the expenses involved in hospitalization, etc.

BTW, there is such a thing as Paternity Leave too! Yehey!!!

[ 11-17-2001: Message edited by: Maharlika ]

[Gwalchmai]

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
<STRONG>however what about Gender stereotypes in the workplace, are there some jobs that women just can't/shouldn't do, or should it be an entirely open playing field? </STRONG>

In terms of jobs that should only be held by one sex or the other, I think Male Gigolo is best held by a man.....

Considering other types of jobs, Moderator of SYM is a job that should only be held by non-human extra-terrestrial life forms. At that point, gender doesn’t matter.

[Mr Sleep]

@CE I was thinking more general muscle constitution, however your points are entirely correct

@Gwally, thin ice?

[C Elegans]

@Marihilka: Perhaps you were trying to think with your gonads for a moment? Mine are not very well suited for intellectual activity. Actually, I can't think of anything they are well suited for except for reproduction - it's not like you can do anything with them really. (You can at least play pocket tennis with yours)

@Sleep: Hm, muscle constitution and such - no, I can still not think of anything in particular. Perhaps there are some jobs around that would require the physical strenght of an extremely fit and strong male an no women just couldn't train herself to that level of strenght, but I can't think of any such profession...especially not in the industrialised world where manual work requiring great physical strenght is becoming more and more rare.

[Yshania]

Wow! Well as my access to GB has been severely slowed these past few days - I have missed an interesting thread developing

Posted by Fas -

If i marry - now that is a big if - my wife will not be allowed (chauvinistic, rude and crude to say allowed by that is how i see it) to work until the children are in there teens.
She can work before having kids, but one is that my ego could not hold her working a full time job.

Hmmm...well I suppose if your wife is of the same attitude then fine. Unfortunately, these days, outside factors sometimes dictate necessity for a woman to work - in London it is nigh on impossible for families to survive on one wage alone without large sacrifices or compromises.

Another issue to consider is the practicality of a woman giving up her career for so many years, only to find on her return that the market has changed beyond recognition and she would either have to retrain or accept a lower paid job.

One compromise would be for her to work part-time, keeping her foot in the door of her career and also bringing in some income. Importantly, it also gives her an interest and contacts outside the home and family...

My husband and I are fortunate, the hours we work mean we can share our childcare between the two of us, without the need for paid nurseries or childminders, so our children are always with one or the other of us...never-the-less it is also good for them to spend time outside the home - whether at friends homes or with extended family...

Posted by VoodooDali -

(Living in the NYC area is great--you just have to wear black all the time like everybody else)

LOL! I would fit in there well then...

Posted by VoodooDali -

However, shopping is a different matter...have to drag my husband kicking and screaming to the grocery store--he's always asking, "Do we have to go down every aisle???"

*giggles* my husband does ALL the food shopping in our house - he accuses me of spending too much and taking twice as long. He knows by heart the layout of our supermarket - maybe men are better suited as their spatial awareness is supposedly better than that of women....

Posted by VoodooDali -

I've enjoyed playing as a male with the Jaheira romance a lot more. Jaheira is pretty cool anyway--she's tough

My last time through I played a male protagonist for the same reason ...

Posted by Aleldar -

I have learned a few things, "NEVER UNDER ESTIMATE A WOMAN". It could be very unhealthty.

I would say never underestimate anyone...

Posted by VoodooDali -

Oops, I was spotted. Must retract antennae... Imperative that I blend in.

*giggles* well too late now ...

Posted by C E -

In species where the females take care of the kids and the males provide food, the male is much larger, often double the size of the female

And in species where there is no childcare, or group interests to preserve (eg I refer back to the lion, where the Alpha males only interest is perpetuating his stronger genes) this is often reversed - ie fish and insects, the female of the species tend to be larger, and in some cases more aggressive...

Posted by Maharlika -

Have you ever tried observing the behavior of pre-school kids when they interact together? What do they do? How do they behave? Surely at that particular age, I would like to think that they haven't yet fully grasped that they are a boy/girl. Yet somehow there would be some distinct differences between the boys and the girls. The boys GENERALLY TEND to be aggressive. I don't think that at that age their respective fathers have taught them these so-called "manly behavior." Such a behavior TEND to be exhibited NATURALLY in general

Usually by the age of three, children are aware of their sex though not necessarily all the stereotypical expectations of society, they are still learning.

Though they may not have been 'taught' how they should behave, if you watch a group of children playing house - you will see them adopt the roles they have observed in the home. The girls will tend the dolls, the boys will pretend to go to work...

Before they start school, children already have preconceptions of what is expected of them. Rightly or wrongly, taught or perceived, they will already be aware of what is a boy's toy and what is a girls toy.

Boys do play rougher, have a shorter attention span and prefer games that are played 'on the go'. Girls tend towards more quiet play in smaller groups. This is a generalisation, but there are patterns that I have observed...

Posted by VoodooDali -

CE, I'm all for it. Let's start transplanting uteri and wait for the fun to begin. I would love to see a man ovulate, menstruate, get pregnant, etc

ROFLMAO!! This is where the world population takes a dive....

Posted by Gwally -

While this may or may not be the case, I would argue from personal experience that women develop a stronger social support group, allowing them to deal with emotional issues in a more healthy way. Men tend to respond more primitively, and failing to achieve emotional satisfaction by chest-beating and the destruction of nearby vegetation, they usually just go postal.

Hmmm....by support group - do you mean friends with whom they can talk through their issues? I just think it comes down to the very basic fact that women are encouraged to express and men encouraged to be strong...an ego issue?

Posted by Gwally -

I get around this by not telling most people about my dirty little secret. Yes, people seem to think that it is somehow on the same level as attending strip clubs and the dog track. Whereas I consider it simply a diversion, a cut above most television programs.

LOL!! or a good interractive novel ...

Posted by Gwally -

Try as we might, most of us just can’t get past our chromosomes all the time. By the same token, the women on this board may sometimes opt for a charming or flirtatious answer to a question rather than a serious answer if talking to a male

A generalisation here Not sure about the flirtatious, but we cannot escape our charm ...

Posted by Maharlika -

Hmmm... re: Sleepy's poser about work, couldn't come up with one, but I'm aware that some company's are RELUCTANT to take in female employees (esp married ones) since these women getting pregnant means loss of productive manpower hours (maternity leave) plus the expenses involved in hospitalization, etc.BTW, there is such a thing as Paternity Leave too! Yehey!!!

Unfortunately in some professions this reluctance lingers. It is a dangerous practice however...

It is not just the cost of maternity leave or hospitalisation, also considered is the cost of training that is an investment in the company's future, and should we refer back to Fas' comment that he would not let his wife work - that investment has been lost...

Also re your point as to married women possibly getting pregnant - there is more to this. It also extends to women who have completed their family but may need to compromise their hours around childcare during school holidays or when a child is unwell.

In the UK a law has been passed forcing employers to allow unpaid leave (for women AND men) of (IIRC) 13 weeks per year to cover such incidences. Now whether this leave is taken advantage of - considering it is unpaid - is another issue...but it is there all the same.

And finally, men are being recognised as part of the family when a new baby is born. In my last job paternity leave was raised to two weeks paid (previously 5 days, previous to that 2 days) On joining this company we had an engineer whose wife gave birth.

Now I am currently in the process of re-writing contracts for our employees ensuring we are within employment law (which sadly they were not prior to my joining). In this contract men get two weeks paid paternity leave.

There are no hard and fast rules re paternity leave as it is still pretty much a priviledge, so I am basing a lot of these contracts on the ones in my last post for the government....

[ 11-18-2001: Message edited by: Yshania ]

[Sailor Saturn]

At this moment, all I have to say about gender stereotyping and such is this poem I wrote a while back.


Male Or Female
What does it mean to be male?
What does it mean to be female?
Are these merely terms of gender?
Or are these terms of character?
Should there be seperate terms?
One for gender? One for character?
Can one be male by gender,
Yet female by character?
Or perhaps female by gender,
and male by character?
What does it mean to be one and the other?
If you are one for gender,
But another for character,
What are you then?
Are you male or female?
Am I male or female?
Is anyone male or female?