Where did mythology for BG series come from?

T'lainya · Post by **T'lainya** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 5:14 pm

No but I might be seeing a spammer getting himself in trouble...

j/k

Aleldar · Post by **Aleldar** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 5:19 pm

Originally posted by T'lainya:
No but I might be seeing a spammer getting himself in trouble...
j/k

Okay, it's a date.

Did I ever tell you, that I saw a hobbit once?

T'lainya · Post by **T'lainya** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 5:22 pm

Originally posted by Aleldar:

Okay, it's a date.

Did I ever tell you, that I saw a hobbit once?

Hmm was that before or after you got the rolling pin upside your head??

Aleldar · Post by **Aleldar** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 5:28 pm

After

T'lainya · Post by **T'lainya** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 5:29 pm

That explains a few things

Aleldar · Post by **Aleldar** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 5:31 pm

Huh? Did you say something?

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 7:06 pm

Originally posted by Aleldar:
It is a simple question to answer.

There were five guys, sitting around a table. Smoking some ass kicking weed. You see they had just come back from Holland, from the hash bash...

Don't tell me people are *still* making jokes about Paradiso? In any case, for the other side of the issue...

Rangers were the literal equivalent of modern federal woodland officers. They maintained the condition of the roads (for the King), the amount of lifestock (for the King's pleasure), cleared fallen trees (from the King's route), etc. They insured that poaching and charcoal burning were kept to a minimum, if not eliminated.

This didn't work out too well in Eastern Europe, where the forests were much larger, and where entire communities were established within the woodlands to escape from rapacious nobility (a hallmark of Polish rule well up into the 17th century). Pre-Christian Europe (and it should be remembered that some major sections of Europe weren't Christian until the 13th century) frequently viewed the forest as a separate area ruled by specific gods, and given for food, shelter and warmth to the community. Having that taken away by a ruler you've never seen before wearing a crown and proclaiming their allegience to a new God didn't exactly sit well with the peasantry. Consequently, rangers were ignored and (on occasion) killed wherever possible, since they were seen as federal infringers on the public weal, and as blasphemers in another religion's temple of worship.

In later years, when the standard of living for all classes was somewhat higher and federal governments (instead of municipal ones) had become the norm, rangers became either tax gougers for their own purse, or very prudent, foresighted environmentalists--anachronistic at that may sound. Louis XIV had a Minister of the Forestries who wrote an enormous compendium of plants and trees, with suggestions for its preservation that remains a model of its kind, today. Unfortunately, it was ignored. Both Louis and Henry VIII were among the worst offenders in selling forests to land developers in exchange for much-needed capital to finance wars.

I think I'm getting a bit far afield, but at any rate--that's where rangers come from, and not ranger parents.

Simon Schama in his outstanding Landscape and Memory has a wonderful chapter devoted to the forests in the Middle Ages, Renaissance and so-called Age of Reason.

[ 12-17-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

at99 · Post by **at99** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 8:03 pm

This was meant as a fun topic.
People have seemed to stray from the topic. There are many many creature in the BG's.

I believe ancient Britain (not England) had a fair bit of mythology that is in the games. The celtic names are plentiful (attractive language I think and not biased of me ).
You find elves, halflings,trolls,dwarves and many others in celtic mythology. But none more famous than the druid. I know a bit on this topic but will say later.

However this does not mean other cultures dont share the same mythology. Which poses the question if 2 cultures had similar mythology could this mean that the mythology might be REAL. I dont believe just made up stories could survive the passage of time.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 8:15 pm

Originally posted by at99:
You find elves, halflings,trolls,dwarves and many others in celtic mythology. But none more famous than the druid. I know a bit on this topic but will say later.

I hope what I posted already about the druids will provide useful food for discussion.

However this does not mean other cultures dont share the same mythology. Which poses the question if 2 cultures had similar mythology could this mean that the mythology might be REAL. I dont believe just made up stories could survive the passage of time.

This "synchronicity of symbols," to quote the Jungians, was one of the main reasons they held that archtypes were part of a universal human unconscious. I don't believe the case was ever proven one way or the other, but it has introduced some interesting non-Western concepts of thought into the mainsream of Western philosophical controvery over the years. I take it you've read Joseph Campbell's The Masks of Gods? If not, it's a four volume classic on the subject of this subject. I don't necessarily hold with Campbell's conclusions, but it makes for a very good, light and pleasant read.

at99 · Post by **at99** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 10:25 pm

I feel a little guilty now due to some previous heated posts. This mythology stuff can be linked to paganism. Paganism is not all anti-christian and this can be proven.
Early christianity practised both apparently
.

Let me say a bit about Druids.According to my boooks the Druids did believe in 1 supreme god.

They were the mystical class in celtic society who did not fight in battle since they inspired the warriors to do this.
The Bards,Ovids and Druids made up a subclass of their own. The Bards new mystical poems and songs that could charm people magically but were subordinate to the Druid.

The Druids were persecuted by Romans then Christians (obvious resons)and died out around 5,6,7 century AD.

England had nothing to do with Druids as it was not part of their culture and England is quite a new country in Britain (formed well after Druids heights). Druid were regarded highly in society like aristocrats (no menial jobs for them)

Most famous druid is Merlin. There are good tales of druids and bad.

The Druids could enter the Otherworld (made up of many worlds within). Within this mystical otherworld they could enter and come back to earth to give us their tales. This is where you get elves,monsters etc.
They believed you go to the otherworld when you die. So this belief the instilled in head strong warriors who fought to death without fear. (also explains a bit the highland armies mentality and British empire formation)

Whether you believe in this truth is another matter. Certainly is a very colourful past.

I like British history but there is a still a lot historians dont know . (Maybe later)

[ 12-17-2001: Message edited by: at99 ]

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 10:51 pm

Originally posted by at99:
Most famous druid is Merlin. There are good tales of druids and bad.

Really? I've always heard Merlin referred to as a Wizard, not a Druid.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 11:05 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
Really? I've always heard Merlin referred to as a Wizard, not a Druid.

I've seen Merlin referred to as a pagan demi-god, who got dragged into the Arthurian mythos like so much else. It seems as though big, charismatic figures subsume other legends within their own: Gawain, for example, definitely was a pre-Christian solar deity, and traces of that remain in Malory--Gawain's great strength, which waxes as the sun rises in the sky, and wanes as it moves towards setting.

My favorite example of a subsumed legend is a mid 13th century record on the court books in an English county, which still exists. (I've got a copy, somewhere, in our garage, but I haven't been able to find it for several years.

) It refers to a fat scoundrel who had occupied a small abandoned keep with group of cutthroats. He knew his letters, and had apparently been intended for a lay monastery, for ran away after seducing several women in the monastery's employ, along with stealing all the silver. He and his group stole, raped, and killed with impunity, since the king's laws were insufficiently enforced. At times he was bold enough to demand taxes from nearby villages. Eventually, his group was wiped away by one of the smaller periodic epidemics that were quite common at the time.

He went by the name of Tuck.

Can't say I heard that Merlin was ever regarded as a druid until late 20th century fiction. Not that it matters much, because so much of what we know about druids is based on reestablishing long vanished materials. The cultures that were druidic and lived in England are now gone. Modern druids are syncretic pagans, and completely unrelated to the "originals." For that matter, if druids followed the pattern of other religions (and there's no reason to suppose they didn't), they probably differed in substance and activity over the years.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 11:15 pm

Originally posted by fable:
My favorite example of a subsumed legend is a mid 13th century record on the court books in an English county, which still exists. (I've got a copy, somewhere, in our garage, but I haven't been able to find it for several years. ) It refers to a fat scoundrel who had occupied a small abandoned keep with group of cutthroats. He knew his letters, and had apparently been intended for a lay monastery, for ran away after seducing several women in the monastery's employ, along with stealing all the silver. He and his group stole, raped, and killed with impunity, since the king's laws were insufficiently enforced. At times he was bold enough to demand taxes from nearby villages. Eventually, his group was wiped away by one of the smaller periodic epidemics that were quite common at the time.

He went by the name of Tuck.

I'm guessing there is some relevance to his going by the name of "Tuck," but I don't get it. ^_^;;

Can't say I heard that Merlin was ever regarded as a druid until late 20th century fiction. Not that it matters much, because so much of what we know about druids is based on reestablishing long vanished materials. The cultures that were druidic and lived in England are now gone. Modern druids are syncretic pagans, and completely unrelated to the "originals."

Yeah...I was going to give a speech in my Public Speaking class about Celtic Runes. IIRC, Celtic Runes are something Druids used, though I am not certain of this. Anyway, I tried searching for information about them on the net, but all I could find were astrology sites. I couldn't find anything about the origins and such of the runes.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 11:25 pm

I'm guessing there is some relevance to his going by the name of "Tuck," but I don't get it. ^_^;;

He was a lay brother in a monastery, who went by the name of Tuck. To near-quote a old burlesque gag, "Do da name Friar Tuck strike a familiar note?

Yeah...I was going to give a speech in my Public Speaking class about Celtic Runes. IIRC, Celtic Runes are something Druids used, though I am not certain of this. Anyway, I tried searching for information about them on the net, but all I could find were astrology sites. I couldn't find anything about the origins and such of the runes.

You might check out [url="http://members.aol.com/cbsunny/"]http://members.aol.com/cbsunny/[/url] It's more reliable in its information than the usual New Age, "Wow, we've got the truth and it's all a really great $29.95!" approach to such matters.

The site master has really done some good research, as his quotation from Tacitus and knowledge of Futhark shows. I don't know if that's what you're looking for, but at least it's a start. Hope it helps.

[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

at99 · Post by **at99** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 11:32 pm

Yout right SS merlin was known as a wizard.
Wizard or Druid can mean the same thing. This was around 5,6th century AD Britain. The Magi was regarded as a persian thing.

But I have 19th century books claiming him to be a druid ('veil of Isis' which is a well regarded book on druids). Does not prove things but being told scottish legends from family he could be reffered to as either.

Merlin was celtic (thought to be from scottish Strathclyde and his story told by welsh bards). (if you believe in this tale anyway) Very controversial topic and should be in another topic thread.

Druids were in Gaul and maybe other places to but Britain was regarded as the main place.

Druids did not actually die out entirley but went underground. Some apparantly ended up as becoming british gypsies (part of my weird ethnic background) and freemasons.

Halloween is a druid festival where they can easily enter the otherworld. So goes the stories of monsters (otherworld tales).
Christmas is believed (from celtic mythology) to be originally a druid fetival
Dont want to fight on that one!

Celtic mythology is supposed to know of antiquity mythology their time. Homers books (odyses illiad)are now claimed by some to on britain tales. (more controversy)

(oh no I spent to long writing this)

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 11:35 pm

Originally posted by fable:
I'm guessing there is some relevance to his going by the name of "Tuck," but I don't get it. ^_^;;

He was a lay brother in a monastery, who went by the name of Tuck. To near-quote a old burlesque gag, "Do da name Friar Tuck strike a familiar note?

Er...yeah, it does, but I have no idea why. My 'what-attempts-to-pass-for-a-brain-but-fails-miserably' is particularly useless tonight it would seem. ^_^;;

Yeah...I was going to give a speech in my Public Speaking class about Celtic Runes. IIRC, Celtic Runes are something Druids used, though I am not certain of this. Anyway, I tried searching for information about them on the net, but all I could find were astrology sites. I couldn't find anything about the origins and such of the runes.

You might check out [url="http://members.aol.com/cbsunny/"]http://members.aol.com/cbsunny/[/url] It's more reliable in its information than the usual New Age, "Wow, we've got the truth and it's all a really great $29.95!" approach to such matters. The site master has really done some good research, as his quotation from Tacitus and knowledge of Futhark shows. I don't know if that's what you're looking for, but at least it's a start. Hope it helps.

Oooh, that site looks like it'll be fun to read through. Thanks!

[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: Sailor Saturn ]

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 11:40 pm

Druids did not actually die out entirley but went underground. Some apparantly ended up as becoming british gypsies (part of my weird ethnic background) and freemasons.

:blink: I'd be curious about the sources for this. (I'm definitely not saying you didn't find these, @at99. I'm just curious about 'em.) Druidism died out in Britain during the Roman Empire, though isolated Druidic customs survived for many years. British gypsies have a documented trail of when they first arrived there. (They weren't indigenous druids, but simply itinerant gypsies, split off Dravidian tribes who became mobile after the so-called Iryan invasion of India.) Can't say I've ever heard Freemasonry linked to druidism before, and I've heard some weird ones.

The most reliable of the British theories I've heard put 'em as an offshoot of Rosicrucian societies that *may* have been started by Giordano Bruno, who visited the court of Elizabeth I for several years in the hopes of becoming a power behind the throne. He failed, but he did have a number of students, of which the most brilliant was Fluydd. Fluydd, in turn, along with Dee, may have influenced Rosicrucianism, which may have evolved into Freemasonry--though that didn't get going in a big way until the 18th century.

But druids...? I suspect this is one of those ideas someone considered, like "our group will look better if we can somehow tie it to something ancient, very English, and intensely mystical." An endless number of British occult societies that appeared at the turn of the century used similar thought processes. One of 'em even claims Shakespeare was a secret member; while a second says the earth evolved after being "salted" by evolutionary rays from the star Sirius.

Um, right.

[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 11:43 pm

Er...yeah, it does, but I have no idea why. My 'what-attempts-to-pass-for-a-brain-but-fails-miserably' is particularly useless tonight it would seem. ^_^;;

Friar Tuck was one of the major players in the "band of merry men" surround Robin Hood. The Robin Hood legends have been dated to the early part of the 13th century, where they probably began as the exploits of simple thieves. Along time, they gained in popularity, and pulled in a lot of other tales. So a certain lay brother Tuck, who had his own band of rapists and murderers, spawned tales that were eventually pulled into the Robin Hood pantheon. I just find that kinda neat.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 11:51 pm

Originally posted by at99:
Yout right SS merlin was known as a wizard.
Wizard or Druid can mean the same thing. This was around 5,6th century AD Britain. The Magi was regarded as a persian thing.

Make sense, I think.

Halloween is a druid festival where they can easily enter the otherworld. So goes the stories of monsters (otherworld tales).

Hmm...seems like I knew this, but I'm pretty sure I had forgotten.

Christmas is believed (from celtic mythology) to be originally a druid fetival

I wouldn't be surprised if it was originally a druid festival. IIRC, Easter was originally a pagan holiday celebrating the fertility goddess, or something like that.

I'm guessing, and this is just speculation, that this was done by the Roman Catholic Church in the middle ages. Since they were rather...forceful and such, the people were probably still reluctant to give up their previous holidays and such since they were tradition so the Roman Catholic Church may have declared it a celebration of such-and-such(the Crucifixion and Resurrection for Easter; perhaps celebrating the birth of Christ for Christmas). I doubt this is what was done with Christmas, though. I doubt this because it is called "Christmas." IIRC, that is a combination of "Christ" and a latin word, though I don't recall the specifics at the moment. My dad probably knows, but he has already gone to bed. Was the Druid Festavil the Druids claimed it to be called 'Christmas' or something else?