Attack on Afghanistan

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 12:37 pm

Originally posted by Fas:
There is no infrastructure in Afghanistan to bomb.
Us tax money is going down the drain.
You can't bomb afghanistan as everything there is already destroyed.

You are right that the towns in Afghanistan is already destroyed. According to the news, the airports in Kabul and Kandahar have been targeted, as well as training camps in the areas. The Northern Alliance says the Taleban controlled airport in Kabul has been destroyed, together with the jets and helicopters there.

However, reports are very unsecure at this point.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 12:38 pm

Originally posted by Fas:
Ok how much does a tomaHawk missile cost?
And could the radar station actually pick up the us planes?
I doubt it worked.
Also according to BBC electricity and water management plants were targetted.
Could anybody verify this?

I heard electricity had been put out. Cruise missles, IIRC = $1 million. Out of curiosity, would you argue against any action against the Taliban, then, or are you arguing in favor of something more like ground troops (so as to be more effective than cruise missles)?

KramoR · Post by **KramoR** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 12:39 pm

I don't think it is a waste, when they bomb terrorist camps and military instillations. There are also, planes taking food and supplies to the civilians. *I hope you don't think that is a waste of tax payers money too??*

CM · Post by CM » Sun Oct 07, 2001 12:50 pm

I personally want to see the proof in the media before i condemn anyone.
If Osama is quilty i agree go get the bastard.

However i don't agree with the fact that the US and Britain are attacking infrastructure and utilities.
This just makes it harder for the people there to survive causing problems in Iran, Pakistan and the CIS nations.

The taliban protray a version of islam which i would like eliminated.
However it isn't that easy it never is.
In this whole show every body sees it through the eyes of the western media.
The views of the average afghani in refugee camps in Pakistan and Iran are never shown.

Ground troops will be a masacre.
It will work if they play it right, but the US must be ready for a vietnam scenerio and be ready to have many set backs and casualties.

Again if Osama is guilty get him and take out the taliban.
However i as a muslim will not suppor the US if attacks air ports and areas which can house families.

@KramoR.
What about the refugees in Pakistan and Iran in the 90's?
The US never provided any food or money then?
Why do they do it now?
It is all PR.
We bomb the taliban but we provide food for the people.
Where was the US generosity in the past decade?

@CE, the training camps to my knowledge are mobile they are never in the same area.
They could have hit a couple but many could have survived.
So they have attacked the airports.
And the Northern Alliance is ready to take kabul.
Ah well this sucks.

KramoR · Post by **KramoR** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 12:58 pm

Originally posted by Fas:
I personally want to see the proof in the media before i condemn anyone.
If Osama is quilty i agree go get the bastard.

However i don't agree with the fact that the US and Britain are attacking infrastructure and utilities.
This just makes it harder for the people there to survive causing problems in Iran, Pakistan and the CIS nations.

The taliban protray a version of islam which i would like eliminated.
However it isn't that easy it never is.
In this whole show every body sees it through the eyes of the western media.
The views of the average afghani in refugee camps in Pakistan and Iran are never shown.

Ground troops will be a masacre.
It will work if they play it right, but the US must be ready for a vietnam scenerio and be ready to have many set backs and casualties.

Again if Osama is guilty get him and take out the taliban.
However i as a muslim will not suppor the US if attacks air ports and areas which can house families.

@KramoR.
What about the refugees in Pakistan and Iran in the 90's?
The US never provided any food or money then?
Why do they do it now?
It is all PR.
We bomb the taliban but we provide food for the people.
Where was the US generosity in the past decade?

@CE, the training camps to my knowledge are mobile they are never in the same area.
They could have hit a couple but many could have survived.
So they have attacked the airports.
And the Northern Alliance is ready to take kabul.
Ah well this sucks.

So what you are saying is my brother is already dead then. Before he even gets there. Thanks for cheering me up FAS.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 1:00 pm

@Kramor *hugs*

Let us not think this way...

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 1:02 pm

Originally posted by Fas:

...In this whole show every body sees it through the eyes of the western media.
The views of the average afghani in refugee camps in Pakistan and Iran are never shown...

Actually, NPR has done numerous interviews with the refugees leaving Afghanistan. I have heard many Afghanis express their views, and those views vary almost as widely as the ones on this board. But one thing they all say is that the Afghani people need US aid. We are providing it.

As for bin Laden: he as much as admitted complicity in his most recent videotape tirade.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 1:04 pm

Originally posted by KramoR:
So what you are saying is my brother is already dead then. Before he even gets there. Thanks for cheering me up FAS.

KramoR, your brother is fighting in (or alongside) the best military in the world, and one that has learned a helluva lot since Vietnam. He'll be back.

CM · Post by CM » Sun Oct 07, 2001 1:04 pm

Look Kramor i never meant it in that way.
I certainly don't hope for any casaulties at all be they americans or afghani.
But as the Bush said there will be casualties.
Just hope for the best.
And it isn't even clear if the US will send in ground troops.
The US should use the proxy system to its advantage to save US lives.
Let the Northern Alliance and Taliban fight each other.
And then send the US troops to mop up who is left.
That is the policy the US i do believe will use.
Also i am guessing that it will be a couple of months before US troops are sent in.

And Ysh is right, don't think about it.

CM · Post by CM » Sun Oct 07, 2001 1:10 pm

Lazarus i don't get NPR i only get BBC world and CNN international, so i can't comment on that news source.
The afghani people have always need US and Western aid as soon as they became refugees back in 1979.
It's just that the aid comes at personal reasons and not overall humanitarian reasons.
Also i missed most of Bin Ladens speech.
But i doubt he would be so candid to accept responsibility.
But i haven't seen it so i really can't say.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 1:13 pm

Originally posted by Fas:
...Also i missed most of Bin Ladens speech. But i doubt he would be so candid to accept responsibility. But i haven't seen it so i really can't say.

Well, it is hot off the presses - the version I heard had some guy translating as he listened to it, but I am sure it will show up in transcript form very soon.

Silur · Post by **Silur** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 1:16 pm

@Fas: Tell me about the Northern Alliance. You don't sound too happy about them. They used to fight side by side with the Talibans against the russians. Are they just a different kind of opressive dictatorship?

According to BBC the Talibans are suffering mass desertions, which is good. Ground war in that terrain has been deemed awful for more than 2000 years, but if anyone has a chance of succeeding in removing the Talibans, I think it's the US/coalition forces. There's no reason counting losses yet.

KramoR · Post by **KramoR** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 1:17 pm

Originally posted by Fas:
Look Kramor i never meant it in that way.
I certainly don't hope for any casaulties at all be they americans or afghani.
But as the Bush said there will be casualties.
Just hope for the best.
And it isn't even clear if the US will send in ground troops.
The US should use the proxy system to its advantage to save US lives.
Let the Northern Alliance and Taliban fight each other.
And then send the US troops to mop up who is left.
That is the policy the US i do believe will use.
Also i am guessing that it will be a couple of months before US troops are sent in.

And Ysh is right, don't think about it.

Sorry Fas, didn't mean to jump on you. I understand what you are saying now.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 1:24 pm

Originally posted by Silur:
@Fas: Tell me about the Northern Alliance. You don't sound too happy about them. They used to fight side by side with the Talibans against the russians. Are they just a different kind of opressive dictatorship? ...

This is a question I had earlier, too. Anyone who knows, please post.

@Fas: here's a [url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18002-2001Oct6.html"]link[/url] to a newspaper article about some of the evidence against bin Laden. More evidence is, of course, classified and not being revealed. If you look around that site, you will also find the text of bin Laden's speach.

CM · Post by CM » Sun Oct 07, 2001 1:24 pm

The Northern alliance is a mixture of warlords and tribal elders that left the country in a civil war for 3 years before the taliban showed up.
Masood was an excellent fighter, brilliant mind and tactican.
But the problem with the Norther Allaince is that the only cohesive bond is their hatred for the Taliban.
Without Masood as an anchor and stable leader i fear that the Afghanistan will go back to the early 90's period when fighting was a normal day occurance.

Mass desertian is no problem for the taliban.
What is needed is that people who are close to the elite Taliban leaders and osama bin laden, then it is good.
Otherwise these are people who will join the Northern Alliance can join the taliban again if the NA is losing.

Kramor it is ok, i should have been more diplomatic with my posts.
Having family in the military is tough.
I know!

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 1:26 pm

There are already ground forces over there...the SAS have been in Afghanistan for a few weeks, and I heard the Ghurkas were going in last week...

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 1:29 pm

Originally posted by Fas:
The Northern alliance is a mixture of warlords and tribal elders that left the country in a civil war for 3 years before the taliban showed up....

Does the Northern Alliance have ANY idea of what democracy and freedom are all about? I really wish the US would limit it's aid (military and otherwise) to people and factions that really, really understand what a free society is all about

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 1:30 pm

Originally posted by Yshania:
...and I heard the Ghurkas were going in last week...

What the heck are Ghurkas?

CM · Post by CM » Sun Oct 07, 2001 1:35 pm

Ghurkas are nepali soliders trained for mountain combat.

The NA aren't demcractic from what i know they are just as bad as the Taliban in my opinion.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 1:36 pm

Originally posted by loner72:

I never said otherwise. I said that the risk of civilian casualties is no reason for us not to take action.

Loner, why do you sound so defensive? I posted a comment to DP about my grief for all innocent civilians. My post was meant as a confirmation that I had neither forgot about the 6000 civilianse who were killed in the terrorist attack, nor will I forget about the civilians who are killed in the current war. Since I addressed DP by name 2 times in 5 lines, I should have been obvious that my post was addressed to him.

Please don't take offense, but I have to ask you: are you trying to pick an argument with me? Why do you post "I never said otherwise" to me? I never implied you did.

Do you believe I support the Talebans because I used different words than you to express my views about the Taleban regime?

If you feel you are unclear about my opinions about the Taleban regime, please read my thread from 9/11 "Would the people in Afghanistan benefit from a US attack?". Also read my discussions with Fas in the threads about Afghanistan. You can also check my conversation with Fable several months ago, about none of us being willing to visit UAE because they were 1 of the 3 countries who acknowledged the Talebans as the rightful goverment of Afghanistan.

I belive you have misunderstand something about my views, and that this misunderstanding might lead you to create a so called "false dichotomy" between your and mine opinions about the Talebans.

EDIT: I recently made a 13 page compilation about the human rights broken by the Taleban regime during the last years. I used material from the UN, Amnesty, Human rights watch, Red Cross, Medecins sans frontieres (my sig) and more. Should someone be interested in reading it, I'll sent it to you by mail. Here are some links:
[url="http://www.msf.org/countries/page.cfm?articleid=40829C72-48B5-4EE3-9317EBEA0C723E95"]http://www.msf.org/countries/page.cfm?articleid=40829C72-48B5-4EE3-9317EBEA0C723E95[/url]
[url="http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/ASA110021998?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES\AFGHANISTAN"]http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/ASA110021998?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES\AFGHANISTAN[/url]
[url="http://www.hrw.org/wr2k/Asia.htm#Afghanistan"]http://www.hrw.org/wr2k/Asia.htm#Afghanistan[/url]

Also, there are the numbers of some UN reports regarding Afghanistan, I have no links, but you can find them at UN:s website, [url="http://www.un.org"]www.un.org[/url]

S/1999/994
S/1998/913
S/1999/698

[ 10-07-2001: Message edited by: C Elegans ]