Afghanastan feels our pain....

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Sep 14, 2001 4:49 pm

Originally posted by Ivan Cavallazzi:
But remember, USA in the past give money and suport to the Taliban group. USA give money to train that terrorists. Taliban and the terrorist lead afeganistão because of the USA suport. USA give suport and weapons to Israel fight against palestinos. Every day people die in the Oriente Medio because of terrorism. I feel palestine dies as deep as Americans.

Yes, it's horrible

The US supported them when the Soviet union had occupied Afghanistan. Osama bin Laden is rumoured to have got special training from the CIA, but I don't know if that's true.

In any case, the fact that he left a comfortable life in Saudi to fight against the Soviets, is what has made some people in the muslim world to view him as a hero

He's also said to be a very charismatic person. Some people who has a positive view on him is of course fanatics like himself, but some people in Afghanistan don't support terrorism at all, they just can't believe he's actually done terrorist crimes. In their eyes, he's a great war hero who would never do such horrible acts

PS - Don't worry about your English, I understand you just fine.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Fri Sep 14, 2001 5:16 pm

Originally posted by breadstick:
Just a heads up concerning the Canadian article. It is my understanding that this was wrote back in the early 70's during the Vietnam Conflict, before we pulled out. I saw this particular article about two years ago for the first time.
Peace.

That's correct. Here's what was said about it [url="http://sinclair.quarterman.org/sinclair/who/gordon.html"]here[/url]:

This editorial was broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair on 5 June 1973 as the United States was withdrawing from Vietnam. It later was printed in the U.S. Congressional Record. The text here is the one forwarded by Gretchen Phillips that set off the round of discussion on the Sinclair Discussion List. The original script is also available.

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Fri Sep 14, 2001 5:36 pm

Originally posted by Ivan Cavallazzi:
Suport Bush's big retaliation will not help anything, more more more pain. American's fell now the pain of Oriente Medio people feel for years.
This attack is consequence of the creep USA external policy and war games.

There is going to be a response, not just from the U.S. but the entire free world. Let me tactfully point out that NATO has invoked Article 5 for the first time in its 52-year history, which states that the attack on the U.S. is going to be viewed as an attack on all the NATO nations. That’s 18 countries that have vowed military backing to America’s inevitable retaliation against terrorism. President Vladimir Putin has pledged Russia’s full support for the United States as well. The European Union, United Nations, and the leaders of India, China, Israel, and central Asian states are all behind America. In Vienna, the Organization for Security and Cooperation (a 55-nation security and human rights body) said in a statement the attacks were directed not just against the United States but against all of humanity and "We are determined, acting together with the entire international community, to unite and put an end to terrorism, a scourge of our times which threatens peace and security throughout the world."

I don’t mean to come off militant and irrational, but I strongly feel that now is exactly the time for a unified reaction from all free countries. If terrorism is ever to be defeated then the nations must join forces and strike at the heart of this evil. We must make the price of terrorism so high that no country will harbor those that utilize these tactics, no faction will associate with them, and none of their goals reach fruition. The only way to achieve this is with force. You might think this merely a dream, but if Arafat can donate his own blood to help victims while China offers to aid the United States, than perhaps it is a dream that is not unreachable.

[ 09-14-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]

Jodmos · Post by **Jodmos** » Sat Sep 15, 2001 5:38 am

LoL
Terrorism defeated once and for all by marchin in into the middle east ?
Where do you live ?
Each little band of ragtag terrorists could do the same thing everywhere on the world every time again.
And there is a wide variety of terrorist groups all around the world, with different goals, motivations and view of the world.
Most of them are at places where you cant bomb em out, or force them to leave with a mighty military strike.
In our Neihgborhood.
There is no safety, not at all.
Eliminating the thread in the middle east ( if that can be done at all ) will only solve a small part of the proplem.
I know i will be flamed for this but the americans, and we all just feld the terror palestine civilians feel for over 20 years thru our hands.
Out of their view the "free world" are the terrorists.
And now a mighty warmachinery is on its way to do yet the same again.
Spreading terror to civilians.
Say what you want, but observing the US military actions for over 10 years one can say there are gonna die lots of innocent people.
In iraq they hit the civilians, the turkey embassy in bosnia, a pharma factory in saudia where they belived Osama to be.
The list goes on and on.
But that doesnt matter right? Its just like in american justice, someone has to hang, it doesnt matter if its the right one but everyone is pleased.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Sat Sep 15, 2001 6:20 am

Why stop with the US?

France had its Napoleon
Russia had its Stalin
Germany had its Hitler
Iraq has its Saddam
Palestine has its PLO

the list goes on...

The current politics of the Middle East is a direct fall-out of WWII and the Cold War. We created Israel out of guilt. Now, we're stuck with the State of Israel, which many Arabs have vowed to destroy. If we abandon it, we will be perceived as finishing the work of Hitler. If we stick by it, we are automatically the Enemies of Islam. While we're at it, let's not forget the pivotal role the Russians played. As for the rest of the Middle East, I agree, we should never have gotten involved. I don't know why we're still there now.

We should pull all interests out now from the Middle East (though we'll get slammed for doing that, too). I don't believe for one moment the attacks will stop, however.

KidD01 · Post by **KidD01** » Sat Sep 15, 2001 8:59 am

Originally posted by C Elegans:
<SNIP>Osama bin Laden is rumoured to have got special training from the CIA, but I don't know if that's true.

According to some sources it's true that OSB got training from CIA

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Sat Sep 15, 2001 9:09 am

Originally posted by C Elegans:
Yes, it's horrible The US supported them when the Soviet union had occupied Afghanistan. Osama bin Laden is rumoured to have got special training from the CIA, but I don't know if that's true.

In any case, the fact that he left a comfortable life in Saudi to fight against the Soviets, is what has made some people in the muslim world to view him as a hero He's also said to be a very charismatic person. Some people who has a positive view on him is of course fanatics like himself, but some people in Afghanistan don't support terrorism at all, they just can't believe he's actually done terrorist crimes. In their eyes, he's a great war hero who would never do such horrible acts

PS - Don't worry about your English, I understand you just fine.

I fill you in aout Bin Laden.
back in the COld War days, Russia wanted to expand its land so that they could have a warm water border, in Pakistan. The CIA gathered many young men from the MIddle Eastern countries trained them and gave the weapons.
And then Bin LAden showed up and said that he would supply the guys with money, cuz he was already a billionare. The U.S agreed, and all these men fought the Russians in Afghanistan and pushed them back. After the fighting the U.S left leaving thousands of highly trained men armed with weapons of war, with nithing to do. So they went back to their home countries and started to cause trouble.
And the U.S did sell weapons to these countries.
Guess where most of this country's money comes from?
Arms sales.
If US didn't have weapon sales, Japan would be far ahead of them in richness. But Japan is not allowed to have an army or weapons.
The US has been selling weapons to these countries and different factions fighting each other for a exorbedent price, because both sides are desperate to beat each other.

BTW, did anybody know that Bin Laden was the 21st of 21 sons in the family. And he inhereited 300 million when his father died. Presuming some of the eldest sons were already dead, they were about 15 left.
15x 300 million is alot!
These guys are so filthy rich. Who knows how many of them are billionares now?

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Sat Sep 15, 2001 9:47 am

Originally posted by ThorinOakensfield:
Guess where most of this country's money comes from?
Arms sales.
If US didn't have weapon sales, Japan would be far ahead of them in richness. But Japan is not allowed to have an army or weapons.

Your statement on the US Arms Sales is inaccurate. As for Japan's supposed ban on weapons and defense, check [url="http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2138.html"]here[/url]. 'nuff said

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sat Sep 15, 2001 11:08 am

Yes, Japan has a small self-defence army of some 250 000 people.

I don't know how rich the US would be without the arms sales, but it's of course a very large industry, and the US is by far the world's leading weapon provider with I think UK as No 2 and France as No 3.

According to this site, the US gov. authorized licences for manufacturing weapons and weapon parts for a value of $67 billions

last year. I suppose that the US don't export all of this, but the export value to only Latin America and only for small arms, was said to be around $80 million for the year 2000.

[url="http://www.clw.org/atop/inside/inside54.html"]US weapon sales[/url]

In any case, MPO is that no country, not the US, not the UK, France or Russia, should export arms to states that constantly and repeatedly abuse human rights.

Word · Post by **Word** » Sat Sep 15, 2001 7:53 pm

Did you see on the news where they reported that Afghanistan threatened Pakistan if they help the USA anymore.

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Sun Sep 16, 2001 4:14 am

Originally posted by Jodmos:
Its just like in american justice, someone has to hang, it doesnt matter if its the right one but everyone is pleased.

In an attempt to adhere to the moderators' call for tolerance, I’m not going to dignify this with a response.

[ 09-16-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]

Jodmos · Post by **Jodmos** » Sun Sep 16, 2001 6:49 am

Because it is true Kayless.
Timothy McVeigh died and everyone was happy, without even asking for his supporters.
Its obvious there were more people involved then just McVeigh alone.
Thats just an example.
Amnesty International claimed that around 30% of all executed deathpenaltys hit innocents.
And now the US are about to start something what can pretty fast end up in WW3.
Most of middle east specialists dont belive it was Osama bin laden.
Just think about it, everyone on earth knows, after doing something like this you are dead meat because the US will to everything they can do bring you down.
And nobody on this planet has the power to hide from them or keep them at bay with arms.
Osama knows that do. He may be a fanatic molslem, but hes not an idiot i think.
I think who ever did it, was pretty shure fingers never being pointed to him.

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Sun Sep 16, 2001 6:08 pm

Yes, but McVeigh actually was responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing, not an innocent scapegoat as you accuse America of often hanging. And most Middle East specialists do believe that bin Laden was responsible (unless you’re talking to Taliban officials). I’m trying not to lose my temper, but your insinuation that Americans are vengeful murderers is highly offensive in wake of this disaster. The U.S. isn’t perfect but we're better than you give us credit for (besides, now is not the time to slander the U.S. so please show some tact in respect for the recently slain).

[ 09-16-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sun Sep 16, 2001 6:21 pm

Originally posted by Jodmos:
Because it is true Kayless.
Timothy McVeigh died and everyone was happy, without even asking for his supporters.
Its obvious there were more people involved then just McVeigh alone.
Thats just an example.
Amnesty International claimed that around 30% of all executed deathpenaltys hit innocents.
And now the US are about to start something what can pretty fast end up in WW3.
Most of middle east specialists dont belive it was Osama bin laden.
Just think about it, everyone on earth knows, after doing something like this you are dead meat because the US will to everything they can do bring you down.
And nobody on this planet has the power to hide from them or keep them at bay with arms.
Osama knows that do. He may be a fanatic molslem, but hes not an idiot i think.
I think who ever did it, was pretty shure fingers never being pointed to him.

You make a valid point with that last point. It's called framing someone. It is possible that someone else did this and did it in a way to frame Bin Laden, but not likely.

I agree with Kayless on the rest, though. One thing you need to remember is that the government knows more than they're telling us. Some of the 'evidence' in this investigation seem to trivial to really matter, but they're being shown to the public as something important. I see this as being because the government has much stronger evidence that, for national security reasons or somesuch, are best kept relatively secret. It is irresponsible to make assumptions and jump to conclusions before gaining as many facts as you can get.

Jodmos · Post by **Jodmos** » Sun Sep 16, 2001 9:59 pm

Kayless, my posting wasnt meant to be offensive, nor do i see the americans as vengefull murderers.
If you got it that way im sorry, it really wasnt meant so.
But you have to agree, if your goverment tries to get Osama Bin Laden out of Afgahnistan many innocent people will suffer and die.
My opinion is, if you cant get it done without civillian losses, than dont do it.
I was shocked when i saw the planes crash into the WTC, not because of the symbolic act but of the loss of so many lives.
And it will be the same feeling when the war in the middle east starts, because i dont see the muslims as people second grade (not accusing you or the american goverment of doing so, but many people these days do), to me they are just humans, just like you and me.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sun Sep 16, 2001 10:27 pm

Originally posted by Jodmos:
Kayless, my posting wasnt meant to be offensive, nor do i see the americans as vengefull murderers.
If you got it that way im sorry, it really wasnt meant so.
But you have to agree, if your goverment tries to get Osama Bin Laden out of Afgahnistan many innocent people will suffer and die.
My opinion is, if you cant get it done without civillian losses, than dont do it.
I was shocked when i saw the planes crash into the WTC, not because of the symbolic act but of the loss of so many lives.
And it will be the same feeling when the war in the middle east starts, because i dont see the muslims as people second grade (not accusing you or the american goverment of doing so, but many people these days do), to me they are just humans, just like you and me.

If a war does start, I will(as always) avoid watching any news about it. When I watched Tower 1 collapse...I can't describe what I felt inside me, but I can say it was not just because of the falling of that building, but also becasue of the loss of life. I have a fairly high empathy level as well as a tendancy towards something along the lines of "sympathy pains." Because of that, I can't handle seeing that stuff happen if it is real. I have enough trouble just watching movies with that type of thing in it.

But, as I have stated previously, the choice must be made between...((Note: These numbers are semi-random, not necessarily exactly accurate))...20,000 people(soldiers and civilians) killed now in war and 30,000 civilians killed 5-10 years from now in the next terrorist attack.

nael · Post by **nael** » Sun Sep 16, 2001 10:55 pm

all of htis talk about world war3 and a war against the arab states is so erroneous. every country in the middle eastern power has already offered verbal support, which is all the US is looking for. we do not need any military support, we are looking for moral support. we know that some civilians will be killed...colateral damage...but it needs to be understood, which is why we are gettign support for our actions, that we are going after any country which willingly supports and protects a known terrorist. putting aside the WTC, bin laden is still wanted for the original WTC bombing, the 2 embassies in africa, the attack on the USS Cole, and an attack on a civilian housing development in saudi arabia. bin laden has also been linked to assassination attempts on the kings of jordan, saudi arabia, kuwait, and bachrain. bin laden feels they are too compassionate to the US and that they aren't strict enough in their interpretation of the Koran. you know...all that freedom that they have slowly been giving people.
all of the arab states understand what is abotu to happen and they support us.

as far as bin laden's links to his family in saudi...he was completely disowned. one of his brothers actually lived and died here in texas.(just thought i'd share)

@jodmos - you seem to be completely forgettign that bin laden has confessed to previous acts of terrorism. i guess he was counting on us to continue to hide (clinton). you also forget that his people don't mind dying for their cause. bin laden has taught them all that it is for the Glory of God if they die. bringing the wrath of the US is of no consequence for them. i don't think bin laden wants to die, or else he would have commited one of these acts himself. so i thin he wants to try and get the world to turn against the US. too bad it failed, now there will be people huntin ghim down wherever he goes...except for soem odd ducks such as yoruself.

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Mon Sep 17, 2001 12:39 am

Such is the tragedy when there is war. The civilians get the brunt of everything. I do hope that if and when the US makes do with their strikes, collateral damage (I HATE this term

) will be at its minimum. With all the technology within the US's reach, I do hope that they get to do accurate hits on the enemy.

I'm sure that the US knows that they are threading volatile grounds here and an error in conclusive accusation would be in the end, disastrous to her credibility.

As I said in one of the threads, and I believe and agree what SS stated, there has to be damning evidence for the US to show the world in order to justify that "America has to do what she has got to do."

We all can just speculate. The truth of the matter is, the (international) intelligence community would really know what is REALLY going on.

I'm sure that these people would know what they are doing. From here on end we just have to trust our leaders that all these things would come to its judicious end.

Nael has a point. America does not necessarily need foreign troops, what they need is moral and strategic (intelligence, venues, etc.) support. The other countries do not have to pledge their own troops to join the fray.

However, it just dawned on me... is it possible that instead of using force, can we just ostracize/embargo/isolate the country involved from the rest of the international community? Like no communication/trade whatsoever?

Just something to ponder on...

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Mon Sep 17, 2001 4:06 am

Originally posted by Maharlika:
However, it just dawned on me... is it possible that instead of using force, can we just ostracize/embargo/isolate the country involved from the rest of the international community? Like no communication/trade whatsoever?

Woudln't that be similar to what has happened in Iraq?

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Mon Sep 17, 2001 4:35 am

@Mr. Sleep: Yes, something of that sort. At least for the rest of the countries who do not like the idea of using force but still do not approve of the host country coddling the suspect in question.

In effect the host country would become like an international pariah. At this day and age, every country needs another country for trade and stuff to meet their constituents' needs. Even North Korea has China. No single country can truly survive on its own --- unless they are just happy living during the time of feudalism and just center on agriculture and animal husbandry to have their food on their table...

Hmmm... it's like 6.30am there, CT. Early bird eh? 6.30pm here in Bangkok... weary after work but I just can't help to check out what's happening outside my "sheltered" routinary, life...