Controvercy

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 4:49 am

Here is a controversial post for you...

Let me first say that i think that yesterdays tradgedy was both wrong and terrible.

But... This should have been expected. frankly the us foriegn policy in the middle east has been morally wrong and dangerous.

In the long run it could only lead to disaster. we are VERY lucky that it wasnt worse (if its over) - it could have been a biological attack.

A whole generation in the middle east has seen the US to be the great enemy and the UK as its willing accomplice. One thing that has angered many arab nations apart from the support for israel is the embargo on Iraque. UNICEF estimates that it is killing 5000 children a month through hunger and deciece. the US/UK policy has been an unmitigated dissaster. saddam is still in power and the whole region hates the US so much that they will celebrate when something like this happens.

im affraid this is only the begining - and the US must bear its part of the blame.

Tom

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 5:41 am

Why are we even over there right now? It's a total waste of dollars. I say pull our troops and businesses completely out.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 5:45 am

@Sojourner I would assume that it is financially motivated.

Garcia · Post by **Garcia** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 6:09 am

I think that it is like an old code, to fight for liberalism and be a kind of policeman of the world.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 7:19 am

The reason for the interest in the middel east is money and oil.

But even because these nations see the US., UK, Israel and the rest of the west as enemies - it is still nowhere near acceptable to say that these countries hold the responcibility for these middel east nations wellbeing.
An act of terror can never be justified even slightly (not saying that the responcibility for this current act is placed there) even though one nations feels oppressed by another.
I feel it is okay to fight for belifs and for ones country, but only if it is a military conflict or military objectives, not terror act agains thousands of civilians.

An act of terror can never be justified - never. And the only responcibility for this is with the terrorist.

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 7:33 am

Originally posted by Xandax:
An act of terror can never be justified - never. And the only responcibility for this is with the terrorist.

The resonsability with this is not just with the terrorist.
There always is someone who talks into the people (from when they were kids even), someone who makes them beleve thet are doing the right thing. Makes em beleve it's for their contry/relegion/ect.

The people believe it so strongly that they are willing to die for it/him.

Quark · Post by **Quark** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 7:33 am

Originally posted by Tom:
But... This should have been expected. frankly the us foriegn policy in the middle east has been morally wrong and dangerous.

A whole generation in the middle east has seen the US to be the great enemy and the UK as its willing accomplice. One thing that has angered many arab nations apart from the support for israel is the embargo on Iraque. UNICEF estimates that it is killing 5000 children a month through hunger and deciece. the US/UK policy has been an unmitigated dissaster. saddam is still in power and the whole region hates the US so much that they will celebrate when something like this happens.

Okay, say that Saddam is taken out of power - who takes over. Do you know? Because the highest ranked intelligence officers in the US don't know. Worst Case scenario: a few factions in Iraq compete over taking power, thereby being vulnerable to an attack. Iran procedes to take over Iraq and now is that much more powerful.

Yes, that is a possibility.

As for the embargo, it has been said many times - If Iraq changes its policies, then America will lift the embargo. Saddam has the capability of losing the embargo - he doesn't want to do it. He'd rather spend his time building up his weapons of mass destruction.

Happy Evil · Post by **Happy Evil** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 8:06 am

Originally posted by Tom:
Here is a controversial post for you...

Let me first say that i think that yesterdays tradgedy was both wrong and terrible.

But... This should have been expected. frankly the us foriegn policy in the middle east has been morally wrong and dangerous.

In the long run it could only lead to disaster. we are VERY lucky that it wasnt worse (if its over) - it could have been a biological attack.

A whole generation in the middle east has seen the US to be the great enemy and the UK as its willing accomplice. One thing that has angered many arab nations apart from the support for israel is the embargo on Iraque. UNICEF estimates that it is killing 5000 children a month through hunger and deciece. the US/UK policy has been an unmitigated dissaster. saddam is still in power and the whole region hates the US so much that they will celebrate when something like this happens.

im affraid this is only the begining - and the US must bear its part of the blame.

Tom

Tom I disagree with you.

The US (my country) may have deserved this, not because of its refusal to bend its foreign policies to the whim of every bleeding heart, cause of the week do-gooder in the world, but because it is the leader of democratic and free societies all over the world therefore a target for the fanatical have nots.

Quark is right, Saddam is taking the food out his childrens mouths and buying tanks and Scuds with it. He is refusing to do business with the US and therefore bears sole responsibility. Tom's suggestion the US is killing 5000 children a day there is outragous. Take a minute to also mention the work and money sent to countries who dont want to kill americans. We take care of our own where I come from, and I suggest Iraq can do the same.

Tom is not wrong about the opinion of the US in some radical Arab countries and my reply is "Who Cares". I do not feel the need to please everyone in the world who has a problem with the US.
That is what liberals are for.

Tom your post is controversial, the majority of what you stated is simply your opinion.
I am curious what you would suggest the US do in the middle east specifically addressing the Israeli - Palestinian question??

I pray for the day that crude oil is no longer needed and the middle east becomes nothing more than a sandy place with pyramids.

Tom is right about one thing, this is only the beginning. The proverbial Genie is out of the bottle and he's pissed.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 8:24 am

Happy evil, I certainly don't think Tom means the US "deserved this", I think he means that a terrorist attack was expected due to how the US has acted in the Middle East.

Actually, the CNN and BBC reported that US security officals has been saying that a large terrorist attack was expected within the next 10 years.

But the attack came perhaps swifter and certainly in another shape, than was expected

In the US and especially today, Tom's opinions are quite controversial, but I agree with Tom that the US has acted dangerous and immoral in the Middle east previously. But this does not, in any way, excuse terrorism and making it less condemnable.

Happy Evil · Post by **Happy Evil** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 8:36 am

Dangerous and immoral are still a matter of opinion. Someone needs to say what they feel the US should be doing or not doing in the middle east. Also I am curious what specific actions or policies you guys are calling dangerous and immoral?

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 8:49 am

Originally posted by Happy Evil:
Dangerous and immoral are still a matter of opinion. Someone needs to say what they feel the US should be doing or not doing in the middle east. Also I am curious what specific actions or policies you guys are calling dangerous and immoral?

Exactly, do not come out with blanket statements that the US has blah, blah, blah in the Mideast. There has been far too much bashing of the world's favorite scapegoat already, and it only serves to add fuel to the fire.

Anatres · Post by **Anatres** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 9:28 am

Somehow, I (personal opinion follows) get the sense that those of you who are trying to cast the blame, even partially, on the US for this abhorrent act of terrorism against the US are like the defense attorney that attacks the rape victim for the rape.....

Rethink your positions......

T'lainya · Post by **T'lainya** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 9:46 am

Everyone, this is an official request
I'm not sure that this is an appropriate time for this topic. This is bound to cause a great deal of anger and pain.
I am requesting all of you to post civilly..I don't want to see flaming or inappropriate comments about any race, nationality or religion etc.
Thank you ,T'lainya

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: T'lainya ]

Vivien · Post by **Vivien** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 10:00 am

Originally posted by Happy Evil:
I do not feel the need to please everyone in the world who has a problem with the US.
That is what liberals are for.

Oh yeah?! *Can't think of a good 'pleasing everyone' response to this, but she will.*

In all seriousness, I just feel too sad about this whole event to have a lucid opinion... Is there a reason? Yes. Is it enough of a reason to justify this? No. Will the U.S. go too far? How far is too far?

My initial reaction was that this was all joke yesterday morning, I *couldn't* be real, and to feel some sympathy for the terrorists. Were we oppressing them, had the U.S. killed innocents in the past? But, now I just feel shocked and confused and weary, I don't have any sympathy for people who would kill innocent passengers on those planes, or the innocents in the buildings...

I'm sorry for the rambling...

nael · Post by **nael** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 10:07 am

The US definitely has taken some straneg positions in the middle east, and we have always favoured israel depsite their crimes and human rights violations. (we had quite the discussion abotu this in some other thread)
but nothign can justify what took place yesterday.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 10:18 am

I totally agree with you here Nael, and the Israel/Palestine issue is discussed in another thread.

I however thank T' for her post, and I agree it's probably not very apt to discuss those issues right now.

But again, I repeat: There is no justification or no decrease of condemnation for the terror attack that happened yesterday.

In a long time and larger perspective though, it's of course of common interest to the whole world to analyze how and why this horrific attack could happen, and what can be done to avoid future attacks.

T'lainya · Post by **T'lainya** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 10:30 am

@ CE I agree the attack and the reasoning behind it needs to be analyzed, I'm just not sure this is the proper junction of time and place for it. Later, when feelings aren't as raw maybe. Thanks for the support.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Wed Sep 12, 2001 10:55 am

Edited for timing

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Yshania ]

Cynik · Post by **Cynik** » Thu Sep 13, 2001 7:06 am

The responsibility for this act lies only with it's perpetrators but still one can hope that future US governments learn something from this and never again bankrolls and trains people like Saddam and Bin Laden.

I can see the rationale in the my-enemies-enemy but I'd still be more picky with whom I'd call a friend.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Tue Sep 18, 2001 9:21 am

However much I dislike to disagree with both c elegans and T'lainya I do think that now is the time to discuss these things. It is clear that we must debate in a calm and rational way but I think it is instructive for all of us to see the other side of the picture.

By Happy Evil
Quark is right, Saddam is taking the food out his childrens mouths and buying tanks and Scuds with it. He is refusing to do business with the US and therefore bears sole responsibility. Tom's suggestion the US is killing 5000 children a day there is outragous. Take a minute to also mention the work and money sent to countries who dont want to kill americans. We take care of our own where I come from, and I suggest Iraq can do the same.

Dangerous and immoral are still a matter of opinion. Someone needs to say what they feel the US should be doing or not doing in the middle east. Also I am curious what specific actions or policies you guys are calling dangerous and immoral?

First let me say im sorry I havnt replied before.
I wish that 5000 children a month did not die but sadly it is the truth.

The UN Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) reported in December 1995, that more than one million Iraqis have died—567,000 of them CHILDREN —as a direct consequence of economic sanctions. UNICEF reports that 4,500 children under the age of 5 are dying each month from hunger and disease. An April 1997 nutritional survey, carried out by UNICEF with the participation of the World Food Program (WFP) and Iraq’s Minister of Health, indicated that in Central/Southern Iraq, 27.5 percent of Iraq’s 3 million children are now at risk of acute malnutrition.

This is the kind of thing I mean by dangerous and immoral. And let me emphasis that it is not the only thing the US is doing wrong.
Now it is true that sadam hussain could give himself up and everything would be just fine. But he won’t. And this is the scenario that has to be dealt with - anything else is just wishful thinking that is killing people in vast numbers and creating enemies of the western world.

Do anyone see the paralles between now and first/second world war? After the first world war the allies imposed heavy fines and penalties on germany – it shortly blew up and created world war 2.
It was then realised that helping Germany become wealthy and a true democratic nation was a far better way of securing peace. Do we have to learn this again???

By Happy Evil
Tom is not wrong about the opinion of the US in some radical Arab countries and my reply is "Who Cares". I do not feel the need to please everyone in the world who has a problem with the US.
That is what liberals are for.

You should care. More than half a million dead children is something that should make anyone care. It is not about pleasing everybody in the world. It is about reacting in a moral way – the US is not doing that and so it makes enemies. Those enemies migth want vengeance and so we are in the present state of affairs - therefore you should care.

Tom