Please note that new user registrations disabled at this time.

Magic & Physics

This forum is to be used for all discussions pertaining to BioWare's Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn.
Post Reply
User avatar
antich
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 10:00 pm
Contact:

Magic & Physics

Post by antich »

This post should probably go to AD&D section, but since I learned what AD&D is by playing BG1/2 (and the only other CRPG that i enjoyed almost as much was Realms of Arcania series, btw - anyone played that one? - and it used a different system) - i thought what's the heck.. Where else do i get valuable feedback after all?! ;)

Ok, so i'm gonna talk a bit about magic in BG world and since it is very much based on the AD&D magic rules i can't help talking about it too.

I am not going to say all over again that AD&D is unrealistic, since it's a major separate topic which can probably be covered in some 500 pages tome only. There is no argue that AD&D defines its' own world that only slightly resembles reality, which may be "cool" for certain purposes (i do enjoy playing BG after all). What troubles me the most is that in this wonderfully created AD&D (and BG) world there are certain inconsistencies, mostly of magical nature.

(A side note on the "realistic" side. It would be probably possible to model things (read - combat & damage) quite realistically if we model each character or monster as an object containing other objects, not only such as legs and arms, but also heart, lungs, blood vessels etc. With this approach a person with his heart pierced would die instantly or would drop his sword if someone cut his hand off. I am actually thinking of giving this as a small OO programming assignment for the students, since it would be both a good illustration of OO principles and also useful simulation. Will let you know if i do :) And of course there are limitations to using this approach in real games because of very high computing power requirements. However, we all know how fast the industry develops. I might elaborate on this later.)

Ok, getting back to magic. I think even for the world that does not try to closely model reality, AD&D still pays too little attention to physics. Because of that, several nice creative opportunities are missed.

So what am i trying to say here :) They introduce the notion of "magical energy" that can be used by magic users to produce different effects, and here is where the first inconsistency appears, namely magic resistance and saving throws. I cast a fireball, which supposedly creates just that - a ball of fire which explodes. Something like Molotov ****tail bottle. Ok, but if that nasty demilich is 100% magic resistant my fireball does absolutely no damage! Hewston, we have a problem. Logically, the demilich must throw save vs fire and apply any modifiers to damage taken based on that. But what we have here is magic resistance influencing real world, physical object - a ball of fire! You may say - this is not a real ball of fire, it is "magical-energy-based" ball of fire. Heck, don't call it fireball then. Call it "some abstract illusionary thing that deals damage only in your imagination, which is then subconciously applied to your physical state". Let fireball deal not 6d6 fire damage, but 6d6 some magical energy damage. The same with cone of cold and all the other spells which supposedly create real-world objects.

If we even accept that it is some magical energy, not the real fireball, then we have to agree that magic users have no real influence on the world around them. Sure, magical energy deals damage, but it's still some kind of illusion - magic resistance et voila. And that's where the lost opportunity is - allowing magic users really alter the world around them. Create fireball that is not resisted by magic resistance but by asbest clothes only. Lightning bolt that is really a bunch of electrons piercing that evil heart. What magic resistance has to do with that? One can save from that disaster, but not by means of magic resistance, but as with any other real world object. In this case, by wearing rubber suit or something :) I can continue a lot, but i hope you got the idea.

Now, time for a nasty nuclear physics type spell :D . You might be familiar with Einstein's most famous formula, E=mc**2. This simply means that if we convert all the mass of any body to energy, we're gonna get REALLY lots of it. Small nuclear bomb (around 10-20 kg of active mass) utilizes less than 1% of the above formula and deals you know how much damage. Now, time for combining magery and physics :) Let's say a magic user (very high level indeed) mastered the way to trigger chain reaction that converts mass into energy in the stones lying all around by channeling lots of magical energy and forming it in a specific way. Well, you can imagine the consequences... That magic resistance will save that demilich no longer. But, there are some cool opportunities to counteract this. Like one nasty mage is trying to trigger chain reaction in a small stone right at the feet of his opponent. The opponent at the same time, wishing not to be evaporated, channels his magical energy and tries hard to keep the atoms together in that stone... Wow!

There are of course many more implications if we think of the ways to combine physics and magic, which open wide possibilities for enhanced gameplay experience. There is also another issue with AD&D magic which i'd like to talk about, but i definetely should stop in this post already!

Cheers,
Rentgen.
User avatar
Xyx
Posts: 3104
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Post by Xyx »

I always figured magic stands outside of the physics we know. It could possibly be an exact science in AD&D if enough was known about it, though.

About the Fireball... AD&D makes a clear distinction between fire and magical fire. They both affect items and protective spells in different ways (in PnP at least, not in BG). A Fireball spell would probably not excite molecules to the point of turning into plasma and igniting the very air around them, but may unleash some form of magical energy that closely resembles "normal" fire (perhaps by temporarily making a tiny wormhole into the Elemental Plane of Fire).
[url="http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/SpellsReference/Main.htm"]Baldur's Gate 2 Spells Reference[/url]: Strategy, tips, tricks, bugs, cheese and corrections to the manual.
User avatar
zeyk
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: Austin, Tx
Contact:

Post by zeyk »

This is a very interesting topic. I have thought of these issues myself, but you have to take into account that the Forgotten Realms are in a completely different Universe (not just a different world) subject to its own laws of physics. My understanding is that the way our universe behaves was determined in the early expansion phase a few nanoseconds after the Big Bang occurred. An independent universe, not subject to our BB, would be very different indeed. If you read more about D&D you learn about planes where beings come into existence (the upper planes) just by having some number of sentient creatures "believe" in them. How can our physics explain that?

On a related topic, I don't think that D&D has physicists in the same way we do. Mages are the closest they have to our physicists, but they are closer to the alchemists of the middle ages. They don't really understand the basic principles that drive the magical energies they manipulate, but they have learned to manipulate them through trial and error (empirism).

Cheers,

Zeyk
"Prepare to be eviscerated, fool!"
User avatar
Rodo
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 11:00 pm
Contact:

Post by Rodo »

Well, first of all, concerning your 2nd gripe: If a spellcaster were to channel magical energies into the rock trying to convert it into energy there could be any one of 3 situations - 1)The energy released would be magical energy and therefore subject to magic resistance. 2)Your scenario could come true. 3) The concentration of both spellcaster's magical abilities will cause a magical explosion (possibly a rift to the Astral/Ethereal plane?) that would not have anything to do with said pebble.
Second, no mortal spellcaster could ever cast a spell like that. Turning matter into energy (instead of just invoking energy) is the kind of magic reserved for gods and demonic royalty. And I don't think any god is interested in making a pebble explode.
You can never hope to grasp the source of our power. We are forever.
User avatar
nael
Posts: 1799
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 11:00 pm
Location: San Antonio, TX, USA
Contact:

Post by nael »

okay...ummmmm...it's called fantasy for a reason.
if you can't get yoru mind around the creative notion that magic could exist, then i don't even know what to begin to say. if magic were to apply to physics, then there wouldn't be much magical about it.

and why do you make the assumption that soemthign magical isn't real? and can't effect the "real"world?
ahh, i don't want to waste anymore words...it's a freakin' game world, built on fantasy, creativity, and imagination. in your tiny world,do you not believe that there could ever possibly be things that humans can't sense, that other worlds might contain.
ugh... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I would be a serial killer if i didn't have such a strong distaste for manual labor
User avatar
antich
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 10:00 pm
Contact:

Post by antich »

Ok, we have some discussion going :)

Nael, you completely missed my point. I never said anything even resembling that magic could not exist. Read on if you please.

Xyx - that's exactly what made me wonder. So fireball is a magical fireball than, not real fire - and i am perfectly fine with that once we have this definition. However, why a conjurer cannot produce a real fireball? In "Complete Wizard's handbook" we read: "Conjuration spells produce various forms of non-living matter." A ball of fire is a non-living matter obviously, so all i'm saying that ability to have this kind of spells would add a nice touch to the game.

Rodo, nope, that's not turning matter into energy by itself. All the mage has to do to start the nuclear explosion is start a chain reaction - a perfect application of the alteration school. "Spells of this school enable the caster to channel magical energies to cause direct and specific change in an existing object, creature, or condition. " So a mage channels magical energy (that he can do, can't he?) in such a way so that it alters a piece of matter by making a couple of nuclei to dissipate - and then the reaction develops by itself! Boom! That's what i call influence on real world :)

However, a point made by Zeyk may render this last cool idea irrelevant - if AD&D universe physics is very different from ours (however i would not think so, since they have trees, people, animals, rocks etc. - and having the same macro-objects designed differently on microlevel is something.. uhm.. unnatural) - then they would probably not have such a thing as nuclear explosion at all. But still this fact even if true, does not cancel what i described in the answer to Xyx.
Zeyk, i totally agree with your second paragraph. :cool:

And again, of course i am not saying that physics can explain everything (such as creatures coming to existence just by someone believing - but this might have taken place in our universe as well actually - read the first chapter of Genesis), but all i'm saying is that if you have imagination and know some physics, your imagination only benefits. It does not impose limitations, on the contrary, if applied right it removes them...

Looking forward to your thoughts,
Rentgen
User avatar
Classic
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2001 11:00 pm
Location: København (Copenhagen), Denmark
Contact:

Post by Classic »

Ahh, it is "real" fire in that fireball but it´s "magical"...! That´s just the way it is. If you throw a molotov ****tail you create a fireball by normal means but if you cast a fireball spell you make the same fireball but by magical means thus creating "magic" fire. You simply can´t put any more physics into magic than common sense dictates, or you´d go crazy trying to make everything fit. Just take it for what it is - a world of fantasy based on our own reality. :)
User avatar
Xyx
Posts: 3104
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Post by Xyx »

If a Golem would be unaffected by a Melf's Acid Arrow (which is Conjuration) while an ordinary piece of unenchanted rock would not, there's definitely something fishy going on. Especially considering a normal arrow would affect the Golem.

Magic resistance must obviously have some magic to resist. Therefore, if the result of a Conjuration spell can be resisted, it must still be magical in some way or other.

Some far-fetched theories:

Maybe the Golem radiates such strong anti-magic that it dissipates the traces of magic keeping the incoming Arrow in existence?

Maybe all magic is generated by some subconscious sort of psionics? That is apparently how Gods are made. The whole world would instinctively believe that Golems cannot be harmed by magic, therefore it becomes resistant.
[url="http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/SpellsReference/Main.htm"]Baldur's Gate 2 Spells Reference[/url]: Strategy, tips, tricks, bugs, cheese and corrections to the manual.
User avatar
Bruce Lee
Posts: 1712
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 11:00 pm
Location: Lund, Skane, Sweden
Contact:

Post by Bruce Lee »

I agree that MR isn't very logical. One could argue that a MR creature would be resistant to attacks from a magical weapon or a summoned monster.
I think MR should be taken out of the game and instead have resistance fire, cold or ligtning or mind spells etc.
You can't handle the truth!
User avatar
antich
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 10:00 pm
Contact:

Post by antich »

Xyx, interesting ideas. :cool:
They don't explain area effect spells though.. Speculating like that we will have to say that with the fireball a Golem influences only that part of it which affects him directly, and not the whole fireball.. Well, i guess that's a possible explanation.. hmm..
User avatar
Aramant
Posts: 2077
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Post by Aramant »

I think Xyx had a good idea about magic resistance being an anti-magic field. That would utterly cancel magical effects.

And I had a theory about how a fireball spell could possibly be non-magical AND magical fire. Maybe the spell itself is just distribution of some flammable, magic substance, and the initial spark of fire is created by magic, but then the combustion of the flammable magic goo is non-magical fire, technically, because the fire spreads non-magically. However, because it is magic burning, it could count as magical fire as well. Hmm...
User avatar
Classic
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2001 11:00 pm
Location: København (Copenhagen), Denmark
Contact:

Post by Classic »

-Sigh-....hopeless!! :rolleyes:
Post Reply