American ignorance - prejudice, statistical fact or cultural differences?

[Gwalchmai]

Originally posted by Happy Evil:
<STRONG>Too funny. Get some film of this behavior. Will come in handy for teenage blackmail.
My daughter (5) changes her name/identity constantly and scolds me when I dont play along. </STRONG>

My daughter likes to assign rolls to everyone in the house. She says to me, "Now you're the mommy, I'm the daddy, and Mommy's the Honey" This morning she said she wanted to be just like me, so she sat at the table, reading the newspaper, drinking my orange juice, and pretending to eat my oatmeal. She copied every move I made! She's three.

[Darkpoet]

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
<STRONG>How should I know? I'm just an ignorant American.

Honestly, I don't remember what it was you were saying, nor do I remember what I said.

Oh, and just to clear something up, please quit using "yankee"(and other forms of the word) to refer to Americans. I am an American, but I ain't no yankee. Yankees are those who are born/raised in the northern part of the United States. It is very insulting to call a southerner a yankee.</STRONG>

Us Northerners call you from the South. Confederate Rebels.

Ain't that right, Reb Saturn??

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by Darkpoet:
<STRONG>
Us Northerners call you from the South. Confederate Rebels.

Ain't that right, Reb Saturn?? </STRONG>

Yer sense of direction is a little off. I ain't no Southern Bell from the South. Ah'm even better cause Ah'm a Texan. Ya'll yankees seem to get that thar fact confused, but don't worry, we'll straighten yout.

[Ned Flanders]

loner72
ROFL!! "The Yorkshire Lass and the Rhode Islander set out to sea..."

I could tell by your lingo that you're a Quahog. I'm from Providence.

[scully1]

Originally posted by Ned Flanders:
<STRONG>I could tell by your lingo that you're a Quahog. I'm from Providence.</STRONG>

Really? *shakes hand* Great to meet a fellow Roe Dyelindah

[Darkpoet]

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
<STRONG>Yer sense of direction is a little off. I ain't no Southern Bell from the South. Ah'm even better cause Ah'm a Texan. Ya'll yankees seem to get that thar fact confused, but don't worry, we'll straighten yout. </STRONG>

Well you Texans did fight for the South. You Reb.

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by Darkpoet:
<STRONG>Well you Texans did fight for the South. You Reb. </STRONG>

Like, whateva. You Yankee.

[Lazarus]

Originally posted by loner72:
<STRONG>Well Ysh, I just did a background check on you. And I hate to tell you this, but both of your birth parents were American. That being the case, I'm sorry to inform you that you were pre-natally infected with the Ignorant American Gene. It comes not from parents but from American soil/air/water, etc., which is contaminated with the Ignorance Gene. Unfortunately there is no cure. Education, job training, reading/watching about current world events -- nothing can stop the rampant degenerative progression of this malignant gene. Eventually all those afflicted with this national disorder become isolationists and enjoy no other activity than sitting in front of the "Boob Tube" for hours on end every night, responding "Huh?..." to common-knowledge questions such as "What is the Philosopher's Stone? What is currently going on in Afghanistan? Can you say AF-GHAN-I-STAN??"

But don't worry. There are millions of others just like you. In fact I suffer from this disorder myself. I never thought I did, till I found out that the rest of the world says I'm ignorant. Who knew?? I mean, however-many billions of people in the rest of the world can't be wrong. Now see, there you go right there, I don't even know the exact number of the world population!! Well, we have a couple of support groups, one is called American Citizenship, the other is American Residency.

</STRONG>

ROTFLMAO!

Edit: it seems the thread-starter has given up on us all!

[ 11-20-2001: Message edited by: Lazarus ]

[Yshania]

@Lazarus - she doesn't give up - she'll be back to pick the bones out of this spam

[ 11-20-2001: Message edited by: Yshania ]

[fable]

So if Americans aren't more ignorant than other citizenry, and they haven't got different values, then why are they perceived of as more ignorant?

[Yshania]

@Fable - I second that question... I believe this is what CE was getting at in the first place - is this label unfair and unjustified? From a personal perspective, I think so...

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>So if Americans aren't more ignorant than other citizenry, and they haven't got different values, then why are they perceived of as more ignorant?</STRONG>

Generally, arogance, I'd say. Another aspect of this is who are the people that other cultures are seeing when they see Americans? That plays a big part in other cultures' perceptions of Americans.

[C Elegans]

Thank you Fable for posing a question that is relevant to the issues I wanted to discuss when I started this thread I'm sorry to see several people seem to have taken offense. However, I will try to comment on some of the issues that has been raised in my abscence.

First, at99, you say:

posted by at 99:
<STRONG>There is no definition of culture in the racism dictionary entry nor am I aware of any airy-fairy culture-racism in the dictionary.</STRONG>

Dictionaries are not necessarity the best sources of information about whether a concept exists or not. (I'm not so sure the term "exon" is in common dictionaries either, still it exists and has a clear meaning.) Cultural racism is a legit term, regardless of whether you are familiar with it or not. It has been used increasingly since the genetic research demonstrated that there is no such thing as biological races in humans. A google-search gave me 1600 hits on the term. Try to make a seach yourself before claiming the term is non existant. You can also check out this university website: [url="http://aad.english.ucsb.edu/docs/Halstead.html"]http://aad.english.ucsb.edu/docs/Halstead.html[/url]

posted by at99 in Afghanistan thread:
<STRONG>Does anyone believe that there cultures are equal to ours. That is not a racist comment.

</STRONG>

posted by at99 in the same thread:
<STRONG>You tell everyone why middle eastern cultures are as good as the west so we can all have a look or a laugh.

</STRONG>

You claim your comments are not racist, but posing queries about differencies in cultures. I see no such questions in the above statements of yours.

@all: Sorry for dragging this up, it's also beside the point in this thread, but I do think it's a good idea to demonstrate to at99 what kind of posts are not appreciated here.

[C Elegans]

Originally posted by Yshania:
<STRONG>@Fable - I second that question... I believe this is what CE was getting at in the first place - is this label unfair and unjustified? From a personal perspective, I think so...</STRONG>

Exactly My idea was that either the label is just in sense of "based on facts" for some reason, and then I'd like to examine what these reasons might be, or that the label is just prejudice, and then I'd like to examine how this false image has come to be.

An example, a bit far-fetched, but to illustrate how an image can be based both on "facts" and false prejudice, but still be erranous: Far into the 20th century, Europeans and Americans with African background were viewed as "less intelligent" and "less knowlegable" than white-coloured Europans and Americans. Why was this? Mostly, it was a mix between total unfounded prejudice, pseudosciences like phrenology and the fact that people with African background scored lower on IQ-tests and had lower grades in school at group level. (IQ tests don't measure intelligence, but they measure school-knowledge quite well). So, obviously there was a factual ground for believing African-Europeans/Americans at group level were less knowledgable that the whites about such stuff that the school teaches. Here we see one of the major flaws with statistics - they might describe an actual difference, but they say nothing about how or why the difference came to be. Some people of course made a racist interpretation of these differences, and draw the conclusion that people with African background are inherently, genetically less smart/intelligent/knowledgeble than white people. This we know today is utter crap - the statistical differences were (and still are) because of sociocultural differences, not biological.

So, my personal ideas are something like: If the view of Americans as ignorant have some founding, it may be due to cultural differences (for example: Let's say US schools don't focus as much as European schools on world history, and because of this the average American is less knowledgable about world history than the average European. Americnhey are viewed as less knowledgable in general since Europeans value history a lot and other subjects, that Americans might be better at, are less valued by Europeans.)

Or, the idea of "ignorant" Americans is total crap, it's totally unfounded - then it's IMO even more interesting to examine how and why this image has formed and ultimately - to get rid of.

Again, I'd like to please ask everybody not to express generalised derogative statements about any group of people because of nationality or ethnic background.

[scully1]

@ Lazarus

[C Elegans]

Originally posted by Lazarus:
<STRONG>Edit: it seems the thread-starter has given up on us all! </STRONG>

You wish! No, I've just been working with @ss off with the unfortunatly collision of two major projects. To be continued...

[Lazarus]

Originally posted by C Elegans:
<STRONG>You wish! No, I've just been working with @ss off with the unfortunatly collision of two major projects. To be continued... </STRONG>

Ah! Well, my respsonse to the topic is buried back on page one - before the spamming overtook the last three pages!
Respond if/when you like.

[Darkpoet]

Originally posted by C Elegans:
<STRONG>Exactly My idea was that either the label is just in sense of "based on facts" for some reason, and then I'd like to examine what these reasons might be, or that the label is just prejudice, and then I'd like to examine how this false image has come to be.

An example, a bit far-fetched, but to illustrate how an image can be based both on "facts" and false prejudice, but still be erranous: Far into the 20th century, Europeans and Americans with African background were viewed as "less intelligent" and "less knowlegable" than white-coloured Europans and Americans. Why was this? Mostly, it was a mix between total unfounded prejudice, pseudosciences like phrenology and the fact that people with African background scored lower on IQ-tests and had lower grades in school at group level. (IQ tests don't measure intelligence, but they measure school-knowledge quite well). So, obviously there was a factual ground for believing African-Europeans/Americans at group level were less knowledgable that the whites about such stuff that the school teaches. Here we see one of the major flaws with statistics - they might describe an actual difference, but they say nothing about how or why the difference came to be. Some people of course made a racist interpretation of these differences, and draw the conclusion that people with African background are inherently, genetically less smart/intelligent/knowledgeble than white people. This we know today is utter crap - the statistical differences were (and still are) because of sociocultural differences, not biological.

So, my personal ideas are something like: If the view of Americans as ignorant have some founding, it may be due to cultural differences (for example: Let's say US schools don't focus as much as European schools on world history, and because of this the average American is less knowledgable about world history than the average European. Americnhey are viewed as less knowledgable in general since Europeans value history a lot and other subjects, that Americans might be better at, are less valued by Europeans.)

Or, the idea of "ignorant" Americans is total crap, it's totally unfounded - then it's IMO even more interesting to examine how and why this image has formed and ultimately - to get rid of.

Again, I'd like to please ask everybody not to express generalised derogative statements about any group of people because of nationality or ethnic background.</STRONG>

Bite me!!!!! I'm an ignorant American. I'm very proud of it to. I think that all these mind numbing topics need to stop. Play more computer games. Who cares about the rest of the world. USA USA USA Lets play games and forget the suffering, hatred and starving. You all are worry warts, who need to drink Guinness and forget about world problems and deal with your own.

[der Moench]

Originally posted by Darkpoet:
<STRONG>Bite me!!!!! I'm an ignorant American. I'm very proud of it to. I think that all these mind numbing topics need to stop. Play more computer games. Who cares about the rest of the world. USA USA USA Lets play games and forget the suffering, hatred and starving. You all are worry warts, who need to drink Guinness and forget about world problems and deal with your own. </STRONG>

I agree! Eh, except with the Guinness part. If you have any appreciation for beer whatsoever, and/or any self-respect, you will confine your drinking to GERMAN BEERS!

Peace.

[C Elegans]

Several posters have mentioned the higher pressure on Asian students to perform well, and AFAIK this is also the common explanation why Asian students perform better also when living in Europe and US.

Maharilika describes that education is the key to success where he lives. I would not say that is true in Sweden. What about US? Perhaps education is simply not as important as in Asia, to live a good life? Other things like entreprenour-ship (please help me out with a good word for this?) might be more important?

@Lazarus: Maybe the term "ignorant" is not good to express what I mean - I gladly exchange it for anything better. You say you understand what sterotype about Americans I'm trying to express here - suggestions for a better word than "ignorant"?
(Btw, you pointed out I had put the word "ignorant" within citation marks in my 2nd post, but if you look back at the inital post, I did that there as well )

Regarding freedon: I think I understand what factors you use for measurement when you say the US is more free than other countries. It's not the same varibles I would use when measuring freedom, but that doesn't matter here - I just wanted to know how you came to your conclusion. You might well be right that the US rewards success in general, and AFAIK nobody ever indicated that was a bad thing, but I'm still not sure how this topic is related to the question of how and why Americans are viewed as "ignorant" by other people?

Your reply to me indicates you have misunderstood something in my previous posts.

posted by Lazarus:
<STRONG>First: other people suffering in the world may or may not be of concern to me. They are to you, and that is fine. My neighbor? Why the heck should a starving man in Afghanistan be of any concern to him? Why should that starving man have the right to take the bread from my neighbors mouth? Because THAT is what you indicate with your statement that the US "has the power" to do something about it. You are saying that the US should take money from its citizens, and ship it overseas to starving and homeless people.

</STRONG>

Where did I say that? I said "according to my personal moral, everybody should care about other people's suffering, especially we in the rich world who has the power to do something about it". Is that the same thing as saying "take bread out of the mouth of Americans and ship it overseas"?

The rich world is not only the US, and everybody in the US is not rich - actually, according to [url="http://www.thehungersite.com"]www.thehungersite.com[/url] 12 million American children live in food insecurity (meaning they are hungry or at risk to be). Since you misread my statement so grossly, I'd better specify:
The rich world = The US, Canada, Europe, Japan, Singapore, Australia, NZ, all other countries living in food surplus and very high material wealth.
We in the rich world = all of us who are enjoying our countries surplus - a French or US homeless would not count as "rich"

by Lazarus:
<STRONG>And, to answer your other point: do I think my neighbor is typical of the US? Maybe. I don't know, and I wouldn't care to guess. To imply, however, that this is a "cultural difference" is, as far as I can tell, exactly this idea of culture racism that you are concerned about. The entire concept of a stereotype, as I have said, is a form of racism. As such, it has no place in anyones thought process. To those who persist in such stereotypes, I say: get over it. It is a barrier to understanding.

</STRONG>

Again, I am confused. I thought we agreed that if you and I have a personal interest in world events, fine, if your neighbour has not, fine, it's a question of personal values. I also thought we agreed this is not ignorance, this is a personal choice.

Then I asked you if you think the latter personal values are more common in the US than in other media-societies, since I thought this could be the kind of cultural difference that would create an image of being "ignorant" whereas instead, it's a question of personal choice. And now you reply with saying my question is cultural racism? I must have missed something along the way - please explain?

If you think my questions are a barrier against understanding, what factors do you think would improve understanding of this negative image of Americans?

Oh, and about the TIMSS and other international comparisons - please don't assume I had part in conducting these studies! I was second-guessing the rationale for the studies from what I know about them, but if you seriously interested in why it was performed, check out the link in my first post, I really can't say whether such studies are counter-productive or nor, I just picked up the statistics from there, because I remember this study received a lot of media attention.

EDITED for sudden dyslexia.

[ 11-20-2001: Message edited by: C Elegans ]