A strange thing with the Christians' theory of what RPGs really are.

RPGeek · Post by **RPGeek** » Wed Jul 04, 2001 7:44 am

The Christians firmly declare that God is absolute.

When the petty fools who are driven by the uprise of dark, sinister forces to do hideous things like murder and roleplaying...well, who else than God can be manipulating them, then?

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Wed Jul 04, 2001 7:50 am

I see flames

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Wed Jul 04, 2001 7:58 am

Ooooooo-kaaaaaaayyy

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Jul 04, 2001 8:01 am

Mind you, I'm not exactly a poster child for Christian apologists (to put it mildly), but...last I checked, they also believed in free will.

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Wed Jul 04, 2001 8:08 am

Yep Fable, we do

Unless there's something I really should know about...

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Wed Jul 04, 2001 8:25 am

Never mind christian apologists, what about christian fundamentalists? They don't believe in free will.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Jul 04, 2001 8:45 am

Quite right, @Grunt. And the daddy of the fundamentalist movement (in a sense), the Calvinists, hold as truth that you are predestined from birth to be either saved or damned. So it doesn't matter what you do, in a sense: you will go to hell or be saved, if that was intended. Anything you do, everything, merely acts out the will of God. You're sort of a puppet in a giant celestial game, and if you happen to be the wrong puppet, your wood is going to burn for eternity.

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Wed Jul 04, 2001 8:48 am

The ideal is that God knows of all our decisions but does not manipulate them. The issue of grace complicates things though. "We can't do anyhting good without the grave of God, but we can do all kinds of evil things on our own..." I have lots of ideas about this but I'll refrain

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Jul 04, 2001 8:53 am

@Loner, please, don't refrain.

Goodness knows, I've posted enough of my mystical ideas to be regarded as a complete raving idiot, and do you think it bothers me? Of course, I *am* a complete raving idiot, but that's beside the point. Please, feel free to state your views.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:02 am

Frankly, and this is gonna piss a lot og people off, I think God is a shame. I mean, if he is supposed to be the man who loves all of his childern, and wants us all to join him in heaven, why do's he manipulate us so? He gets us to have Wars in his name, He drowns the whole world! and he ignores the tragedy of the unfortuneate lower classes. Does that sound like an all loving God?

Also, the whole Christian religion is a farce. Fair warning, I'm shouting out some stotic Dogma here. It isn't the actual roots of the religion thats bad, it's the people since the birth that have made it bad! You get people like Christ and his appostles and another guy (sorry, lack of rememberance). They were the good ones! They were the ones with the idea of this religion, not the mass of ignorant puppets that follow them! You know why they were the good ones? Because they had the idea, and that can be tinkered with. You can't tinker and change a belief as easily, and that makes it a very dangerous thing to have.

Also, I'll take this from the words of George Carlin. When comparing UFO's and God, what do you suppose there is more proof of? UFO's of course. The only problem with that is if someone sees a UFO, and believes it, people call them crazy, and consider them cooks. Yet on the other side, if you believe the god, your some how going down the right path, and will receive divination at some point in your life! What a load of Horn Swaggle! Why is it that people beleive in something there is little to no proof of, yet they won't beleive something that is tangible, and believeable!

Thos three points are what lead me to my religion of choice. Aethesism. I don't beleive in squat, and I'm perfectly happy that way.

Sorry for offending anyone. I had no intention of it, but the truth must be told.

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:05 am

Thanks raving idi--err, Fable

Okay, *ahem*

As far as I see it, there's a thing called Original Righteousness. We always hear about original sin but seldom if ever about original righteousness. Original righteousness is the basic, inherent, natural if you will, state of humanity: in a close, loving friendship with the Creator. It's my belief that the essence of God, the individual human spirit or "breath" of God, must logically be a source of grace. Therefore grace is a natural state, which we can either accept or reject -- by choice

. This is the grace that leads us to good actions, a good life. But since it's present in every person, you don't have to do anything to "get" it. So, it's true that we can't do anything good without God's grace, but we already possess that grace anyway.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:12 am

If it is a choice we receive though, and if God has such a big thing for freedom of choice, how come this isn't a conscience thought of the decision, especially if it is one that big!

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:13 am

I'm not sure I understand what you mean Aegis...think you could clarify a bit for me?...

[ 07-04-2001: Message edited by: loner72 ]

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:19 am

If having this choice of using the grace god bestowed upon us, or not. Isn't that a decision that should be made consciensly, and not in limbo. I mean being graceful is a big thing (kind've). anyway, correct me if I misinterpied your statement. Thats how I see it though

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:24 am

Sure it is. You have to make a decision whether to follow the right way or not. And as I see it, an atheist who says "I'm going to live a good life, and love people and reach out to those in need" etc. etc., is responding to the presence of God within him. Even if he doesn't believe in or acknowledge it. It's the spirit of the Creator, naturally within us, that prompts us to think "I want to live a good life and make this world a better place." IMO

As far as religion itself is concerned, sure it's been corrupted. But you mention Jesus and I think you meant Mohammed as well? And you say they knew what religion was all about. So is it the existence of a Creator you have a problem with, or what people have done with the idea?...

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:28 am

Mostly what it has turned into. I got nothing againest the thought, and faith of it all, it what people do in his name. If god truly existed, would he not do something to stop all this insanity. You see, that's where my aetheisist views come in.

I also think it was Saddum or something like that I was thinking of. He was a jew. Mohammed though is a guy who slipped my mind and should've been added.

KramoR · Post by **KramoR** » Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:31 am

Wait a minute, why would God create something. Then sit back and watch his creations kill each other. Fable. so what you are saying is the bible, isn't worth the paper it's printed. Things on family values, love your neighbor. If that was done on a daily basis, there wouldn't be any problems, would there? How far are you going back, to were people where killing in God's name?
So, if you are an atheist, why worry about other people talking about God?

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:32 am

Now that's insidious Loner.....God is present within us Athiests and Agnostics, whether we like it or not.

[ 07-04-2001: Message edited by: dragon wench ]

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:36 am

Just because we're Aetheisist's, doesn't mean we can't say something about how other religiouns need a kick in the pants.

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:36 am

Originally posted by Aegis:
<STRONG>If god truly existed, would he not do something to stop all this insanity. You see, that's where my aetheisist views come in.</STRONG>

Ah, the problem of evil. Ages-old and still going strong. My answer? Again -- free will. God could take our free will away and make us uniformly loving and on our best behavior. But then we'd just be robots, not humans.

You should read a book called Night by Elie Wiesel. It's about his experiences in the Holocaust and how he struggled with the problem, why is this evil allowed?