Cultural gender distinctions- no spam, please

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Nov 25, 2001 7:47 am

"It's not manly to behave in that fashion," "That's not the way a lady behaves." Parents have been conditioning kids for sexual behavior presumably for ten thousand years or more--mothers are particularly tenacious.

What examples can you give, both in your culture and out, of sexual conditioning of the young?

Craig · Post by **Craig** » Sun Nov 25, 2001 7:58 am

How many women Basket ball,foot ball, cricket, snooker, rugby players and how many of them arte professinal???

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Sun Nov 25, 2001 8:11 am

I think the best pieceof work that shows Women's gender roles being broken (and I hate myself for even admitting this) is Shakespears Macbeth. Check out the character of Lady Macbeth...

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sun Nov 25, 2001 9:06 am

Originally posted by craig:
How many women Basket ball,foot ball, cricket, snooker, rugby players and how many of them arte professinal???

Uh, isn't there a women's professional basketball league?

*thinks* Does discouraging pretending to be the other gender count? My parents weren't to happy that I wanted to dress up as Artemis Entreri for Halloween and it wasn't because he's an assassin.

Here's something. Every guy I've ever seen who had long fingernails(except for guitar players like my dad) get teased about it because having long fingernails is a "girl thing" and having short fingernails is a "guy thing."

Omar · Post by **Omar** » Sun Nov 25, 2001 12:17 pm

In Pakistan it is not manly for men to have long hair and vice versa for women.

In Pakistan:
It is not manly to be not able to drive cars
(if you can't drive cars you are not a real man yet

)

In Pakistan:
It is not manly to wear very colorful clothing or to use make-up other than deodorant

In Pakistan:
It is not womanly to smoke using a waterpipe and it is not manly to watch soaps

Etc,etc,etc...

On other thing: how many women are there in the air traffic industry working as professional pilots?

And as stewards?

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Nov 25, 2001 3:17 pm

When I was attending high school (and I can't say that this is prevalant today), boys were required to take Metalworking and Woodworking, while girls took Home Economics. The whole idea sounds like a bad 50s sitcom: who wouldn't need to know how to take care of the house? Who really needs to know how to make a metal lamp? For that matter, why were these being taught in school, a place where you're supposed to be learning skills of use in the modern workplace?

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sun Nov 25, 2001 4:01 pm

Originally posted by fable:
When I was attending high school (and I can't say that this is prevalant today), boys were required to take Metalworking and Woodworking, while girls took Home Economics. The whole idea sounds like a bad 50s sitcom: who wouldn't need to know how to take care of the house? Who really needs to know how to make a metal lamp? For that matter, why were these being taught in school, a place where you're supposed to be learning skills of use in the modern workplace?

I'm pretty sure that most High Schools(at least, most the ones I know of) still have Home Economics, but I don't think it is gender-exclusive anymore. I think some high schools have "Shop" class(metalworking and woodworking), but I don't know how common it is.

BTW, my mom and I are a lot better at building stuff than my dad is.

My dad would be a good cook, but he experiments too much. Sometimes it comes out good, sometimes it comes out...

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Sun Nov 25, 2001 4:31 pm

I have no problem with Home economics... Have any of you ever noticed the guy:extremly hot girl ratio going on in those classes!

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Sun Nov 25, 2001 4:33 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
Uh, isn't there a women's professional basketball league?

The WNBA is a relatively young league and doesn't have any "name" level stars comparable to Larry Bird, Magic Johnson or Michael Jordan. Many WNBA teams struggle to make their attendance goals, much less fill an arena. Plus their players aren't paid nearly as much as their male counterparts. That is due, in part, to the fact that the WNBA is a young league and can't afford to give out $108 million contracts, but it is also due to the sex of their players.

There are no women's sports that have the level of support of major men's sports (football, baseball, basketball hockey) at either the professional or amateur levels. In the United States, Title IX of the Education Ammendments Act of 1972 guarantees that federally-supported colleges and universities must provide the same level of support for women's sports that they do for men's sports, but its effects are just now being felt. Plus, many people claim that colleges are losing traditional olympic sports (fencing, wrestling, rowing, gymnastics, etc.) because they can't afford them under Title IX (personally, I think that is hogwash; those sports are being eliminated because money is being funnelled into men's football).

Duke University recently lost a $2 million lawsuit filed by a female football player claiming to have been discriminated against on the basis of her sex, but there are no other women on Division I-A college football rosters. There are no professional women football, baseball or hockey players in the United States that play in the major leagues, and very few that play at the amateur or lower professional levels.

Having said that, female athletes are becoming more visible and respected as athletes. Tennis and golf are the best examples, especially now that the stereotype of the female lesbian athlete is disappearing. The United States women's soccer team winning the 1999 World Cup has also elevated women athletes in the public eye, although it is kind of disheartening that the press didn't really want to talk about beating China, but rather that we all got to see Brandi Chastain's bra.

Women have come a long way over the last century, and not just in sports. Gender and sex stereotypes still exist, but in most countries women are entitled under the law to equal rights, opportunities and protections.

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Sun Nov 25, 2001 4:46 pm

Back to our friend fable's original question, I think it's curious how we view the sexual activity of the different sexes.

For example a women who is promiscuous or has a lot of sexual partners is considered a whore or a tramp. Yet a man with the same sexual behaviour is considered virile or a stud. Why is it that we view one group favourably and another group unfavourably for the same behaviour?

Also, why is it that we often see a younger woman coupled with an older man, but rarely the other way around? For example, Anna Nicole Smith was something like 26 when she married Howard Marshall, who I believe was 89. Bill Wyman's (of the Rolling Stones) wife was something like 18 when they got married and he's older than dirt. If women engaged in that same behaviour, we would consider them deviant, while we say, "Way to go, Bill!" or "I guess Howard just re-builds them the way he wants 'em".

Grey hair on women makes them look "old" while men become "distinguished". I think it odd that we are so willing (almost eager) to put older women out to pasture and spinsterdom while allowing men far more latitude in terms of their sexuality.

Alex Slavich · Post by **Alex Slavich** » Sun Nov 25, 2001 5:21 pm

That's because all the rules of society are set by fat old men.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Sun Nov 25, 2001 5:45 pm

Or dirty old men... all depends on your point of veiw...

Alex Slavich · Post by **Alex Slavich** » Sun Nov 25, 2001 6:33 pm

Who says it can't be both?

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Nov 25, 2001 6:35 pm

I asked for no spam, guys. Please respect that.

Alex Slavich · Post by **Alex Slavich** » Sun Nov 25, 2001 7:07 pm

Sorry! To tell the truth, I had no idea what spam is, but in this context I'm pretty sure I understand now.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Nov 25, 2001 8:43 pm

I could give a zillion examples of gender role conditioning of children, both in society in general, media, from parents and from daycare/school. You hear some very obvious things like "a big boy shouldn't cry", "a though guy shouldn't hide behind mommy" but also some more subtle things like when a girl hit a younger child people say "it's not nice to hit someone smaller than you" and when a boy does the same, they say "it's cowardice to hit someone smaller than you". Implicating that the girl's error was not to be nice, and the boy's error was to be a coward, ie girls should be nice, boys should be brave.

Other examples: just look at the toys girls and boys are given or encouraged to play with, respectively.

Among teenagers and adults: Men only use make-up in certain subcultures, whereas they spend much more than women on hair-styling products. Nobody care if a man has the same sweater every day, whereas women often get comments if they use the same clothes very often. Women are supposed to enjoy shopping clothes and caring more about how they look.

However, in Sweden, these trends are relatively week among younger people, things have changed a lot. Just a little anecdote:

I had dinner with my best friend some days ago, and she took a big fat chocolate cake dessert. She told me her work-mates would faint if they saw her eating this, everybody at her office is dieting, counting weight-watcher points etc, and they only eat low-fat food. They also talk alot about their dieting, how many pounds they have lost this week etc. Note: my friend is one of two women among 30 guys. Great - gender equality has made diet-hysteria spread to men also

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sun Nov 25, 2001 8:58 pm

There's also the way little kids copy adults.

Example: Playing house. The girls play the part of 'housewives' while the boys are the daddies who go off to work every day.

Now, me, when I played house with my friends, they would fall into those roles, but I always went with the best role of all. I was the family pet, specifically, a cat.

CM · Post by CM » Sun Nov 25, 2001 10:06 pm

In Pakistan for some weird reason it is manly to carry a freakin gun.
And i am talking about 14 year olds carrying the guns in to class.

2. "Phuddas" or basically gang fights are supposed to be the in thing back when i was there - jan 1996 to Aug 1997.

Why do i think of a bad 1950s musical?

3. Woman can easily watch indian movies and learn the songs in the movies. Guys can't get away with, i don't understand why they would want to.

4. Women are not "supposed" to wear modern clothes like jeans of t-shirts. It is accepted but it shows the lady is westernized - which is a major sin!

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Nov 25, 2001 10:14 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
There's also the way little kids copy adults.

Example: Playing house. The girls play the part of 'housewives' while the boys are the daddies who go off to work every day.

Now, me, when I played house with my friends, they would fall into those roles, but I always went with the best role of all. I was the family pet, specifically, a cat.

LOL! I enjoyed that.

There's a highly readable cultural study about bagpipe playing in Bulgarian village culture called May It Fill Your Soul. (Comes with a dynamite CD, too.) One interesting point the author makes is that in traditional Bulgaria, the women sang, and the men played the instruments. If a man sang, he was a gypsy. When one family of important musicians in the book get together, the only way one of the men can sing (which he obviously enjoys) in public is to make believe he's drunk; then, it's acceptable.

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Mon Nov 26, 2001 12:16 am

In my country, the husband would GENERALLY feel insecure if it is his wife who earns more, and he is such a disgrace if he ends up a "househusband" while the wife brings home the bacon.

In my school back then, we had subjects called Practical Arts and Home Economics from Grade 5 to Grade 8. In a given academic year, one semester is for PA and the other for HE.

PA stuff would be more on manual work and skills (gardening, handicrafts, drawing, etc.) while HE will be stuff you usually identify with home-making (sewing, embroidery, cooking, "baby-sitting", etc.)

Boys and girls are required to attend both classes.

We are 4 siblings in the family and all of us are boys. I'm the eldest. My parents had required us to learn to do housework (cleaning, cooking, washing the dishes, do the laundry, iron/press clothes, etc.) even if we have househelp/maids around. There is also basic plumbing and electrician stuff and troubleshooting car problems.

Mom keeps telling us that being boys is not an excuse not to know how to do things around the house.

I remember Dad being totally surprised when he caught me one day in my room stitching back the button of my uniform and patching up a small hole (from all the roughhousing with my calssmates). Though he was surprised he told me immediately how proud he was of me for being independent.

My parents keep on telling me too that one must know this stuff regardless whether you are a boy or girl.

Not just because one will have to do it himself one day...

... but even if you get rich and have someone do it for you, at least you know that the person is doing it right and not conning you out your money.