I wrote:
Do you really want to get into the religious beliefs in particular of the Virginian contingent to the US Constitutional Congress?
Eminem replied:
From what I understand, the journals of the Continental Congress were so filled with Biblical phrases as to resemble Old Testament ecclesiastical documents.
Come now. The subject above wasn't "The bible as a favorite book of the Constitutional Congress," but your commment, "Take, for example, the United States Constitution, written and inspired by Christian Theists all (James Madison and John Locke respectively)." Consequently, my reply was a correction, pointing out the religious beliefs of the *most influential founding fathers specifically involved in the writing of the Constitution and Declaration of the Independence.* Not the majority of those who took little part in the proceedings, except to vote and comment about peripheral issues such as the weather, housing problems, prices, etc.
Eminem continued:
The Congress consistently acted in support of a religiosity that brought together the actions of church and state in its constant appeal for divine aid, daily prayers, appointment of military chaplaincies; its members attending worship services as a body; its proclamations for days of fasting and humiliation; and its ordering that an American Bible either be imported or published.
Invoking divine aid at the beginning of a plenary session is not an act bringing together church and state, and I'm amazed to see you write that. It was a formality, for Madison, Jefferson, Washington, Adams, Franklin, etc would never have accepted such a practice of government if it was considered a "bringing together of the actions of a Christian church and state." This would have placed them in a position of extraordinary hypocrisy, condemning violently any link between the two while they actually followed it at the same time. This kind of reasoning honestly does you little credit, and smacks of a sophistry I hardly expected you to use.
The Congressional Congress' members only attended "services" as a group if you conclude that a pastor addressing the Congress itself (a compromise arrived at because some of the most ostensibly religious members of Congress threatened to leave if they didn't get their way) constitutes a "service." Many members of that Congress certainly didn't believe it constituted such a service, judging by their acerbic and sometimes scathlingly funny written (and spoken!) comments at the time. Again, and in answer to all the above, none of these points deal with your claim, regarding Christianity's influence upon the formation of the US goverment; because none of the actions of the Constitutional Congress have anything to do with that religion.
No bible was ever published by the Constitutional Congress, or any other US Congress.
You might also want to recall the First Amendment of the Constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." The point being that whatever the individual faiths of various constitutional congressmen (and they were quite varied), they deliberately set limits upon themselves to prevent any religion from influencing government. That's been the view of the Congress itself (which could have acted to amend this at anytime since, and hasn't) and the Supreme Court through all of its many changes over the years.
I stated:
Have you studied 18th century Masonry, and its involvement with major revolutionary movements of the time? I think you'll find that Madison, Jefferson, and several other very important figures involved in the structuring of the US governmment prior to the establishment of a Federalist/Bostonian-NY bulwark in 1800 were Masons at the time of their valuable work.
Eminem replied:
Yeah, so what? One could generalize by saying masons were more philosophical than religious, but this would be inaccurate. A mason could still be a Christian.
I suggest you check a variety of sources used by the very conservative Christian right. Several of them specifically label Freemasonry as a non-Christian, or even anti-Christian religion/movement. Certainly, the movement included both rituals and spoken tenets that involved pre-Christian Egyptian theology and Kabalistic elements, and not an iota of Christian worship. They were hounded at the time from the pulpits in Europe.
Besides, Jefferson, a prominent Freemason, spoke in unequivocal anti-Christian terms. (We'll get to him later.) So the point isn't "was Freemansonry anti-Christian?" but again, the inaccuracy of your statements concerning the relationship of Christianity to the new US government.
I wrote:
In addition, their "democratic ideals" derived from the French Revolution--a very anti-Christian one in some respects--and ultimately from the Greek demos, which preceded Christianity's existence by some time.
Eminem replied:
Yes and no. In the American experience, there was both a borrowing and a refusing of Greek culture...
This is all beside the point, since you ignore the American Revolution's origins within the very anti-Christian French Revolution, as I mentioned above.
I wrote:
How about Thomas Jefferson? He wrote that Christianity had become "the most perverted system that ever shone upon man," filled with "rogueries, absurdities, and untruths perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."
Eminem replied:
You're mistaking Jefferson's target, fable. Notice in his quote that he was not attacking Christ or his teachings at all, but rather the way in which he believes it "had become" corrupted by "dupes and imposters" over the centuries...
And what about Madison's quote--that, from the man whom you claimed wrote and inspired the US Constitution? You didn't mention Jefferson as a great creator or influence upon the Constitution; but Madison. Let's stick with him, just for a moment. (We'll return to Jefferson.)
Here's another Madison quote for you:
"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed."
And another. (I'm really glad you brought him up, since you clearly feel he was so important in the formation of our government):
"An alliance or coalition between Government and religion cannot be too carefully guarded against...Every new and successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance."
And one of my favorites:
"Freedom arises from the multiplicity of sects, which pervades America and which is the best and only security for religious liberty in any society."
If, as you write, Madison had a tremendous influence upon the Constitution, then it would appear clear that he zealously believed in a separation of church and state. If he had little or no impact, then your earlier statement was wrong.
Okay, back to Jefferson.
He had nothing but respect and admiration for the man from Galiliee...
You are more correct than you know, when you speak of "man" in the last sentence. I'll explain, beginning with a part of your next quote from Jefferson:
. . . when we shall have knocked down the artificial scaffolding, reared to mask from view the simple structure of Jesus...
You seem to be ignoring the fact that the "scaffolding" Jefferson referred to repeatedly in his letters was most of the New Testament and everything in the Old Testament of the bible--including, as I've already quoted, everything written by Paul. Now, I cannot think of a Christian sect of any sort that would accept what Jefferson thus defined as Christianity, since it rejects virtually all of the documents you, and many others, accept as divinely inspired, and certainly forms the foundation of every branch of the Christian religion.
For that matter, do you know what "Jefferson's Bible" consisted of? That's to say, the bible Jefferson repeatedly stated he accepted, versus all the rest? He actually "constructed" one in his lifetime, and a facsimile was published in 1996. It's literally some verses drawn from Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, with all the supernatural elements removed. Approximately eighty pages. Jefferson's "Holy Author of Christianity" is, then, the author of morality, conveyed by a man, Jesus, rather than a god or god-man. Using Jefferson's definition of Christianity is not going to help establish your case, since his definition would almost certainly draw a beaming smile from a congregation of Unitarians. Calling Jefferson to your side, Eminem, you grasp a rationalist of the most determined sort.
But again, all this is beside the point. You brought up the issue of a few founding fathers who had an enormous impact upon the US Consitution and Declaration of Independence, and felt they inculcated Christian values into government. In fact, those who had the greatest influence were the ones most in favor of removing all influence of religion from the state, and at least a couple of them were vitriolic anti-Christians, if we judge a Christian as someone who accepts the contents of the bible as a foundation for their religion.
[ 08-20-2001: Message edited by: fable ]
