Carsomyr +6 question

Masteraleph · Post by **Masteraleph** » Sat Sep 01, 2001 9:51 am

Yeah, Koren's right. Drizzt duals scimitars, which although they're longer blades they're also curved, making the fighting style different (one edge, not 2). I think that in PnP, you can (or could with 2nde) only use 2 weapons of different lengths, but that wouldn't preclude bastard/long sword. With the warhammer/flail one, it doesn't make too much sense in real life- a flail is supposed to be one handed, but a large warhammer would probably be 2 handed (so you could use the shaft to block).

Johnny · Post by **Johnny** » Sat Sep 01, 2001 9:57 am

Hmm...a flail is meant to be one of the hardest weapons to master - so putting it in your left hand, and having another weapon as well is NOT ON. Oh well, that's gaming for you - time for the suspension bridge of disbelief...

It's also another fact that a rookie marine or elite commando will both fall to a few bullets, wherein powerful humans in the game have 150+ hitpoints.

rapier · Post by **rapier** » Sat Sep 01, 2001 10:01 am

Lol, I wanna see someone dual-wielding a five-headed flail and a warhammer...lol

Meerlight · Post by **Meerlight** » Sat Sep 01, 2001 12:56 pm

Yea but lets not forget that these weapons are enchanted! They are incredibly light and fast compared to normal weapons. Wielding 2 long swords that wiegh 3 pounds or so each is not going to be difficult. These weapons also give bonuses to THACO so I always imagined magical weapons "guiding" themselves part of the time making it even easier.

Stoner Cold · Post by **Stoner Cold** » Sat Sep 01, 2001 1:45 pm

that doesnt matter, that they're light and everything. it takes incredible hand-eye coordination just to not hit yourself, let alone hit anything else

Silvanerian · Post by **Silvanerian** » Sat Sep 01, 2001 2:46 pm

I agree that dualwielding is very difficult indeed.
I AD&D rules you can only dualwield if one of the weapons is smaller. A 2hander is a "large" class weapon. A bastard and a longsword is "medium". A shortsword and dagger is "small".
So, in other words, a normal human can dualwield a bastard sword and a shortsword.
He's a trained fighter - I think of it as shooting with two guns simultaniously. That's hard, but some can do it.
Back to the AD&D:
A giant can dualwield a twohanded sword and a bastard sword (or if he's really strong, two twohanders)
So, all in all, I generally agree that it's not for normal humans (even if they are fighters) to dualwield two bastard swords for instance. But if you have a natural 20 str, I suppose it could be doable - even if it does seem awkward to us.
My perception of a medevil fighter practicing swordplay for 15 or 20 years is that he's capable of almost anything.
Remember, that this isn't your averege 5th level grunt - it's a 20th level or above demi-god.
By the way: scimitars are also considered "medium" sized weapons, so Drizzt, with his 13 str, isn't really "allowed" to dualwield them...

-Silvanerian

[ 09-01-2001: Message edited by: Silvanerian ]

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sat Sep 01, 2001 2:57 pm

Originally posted by Kameleon:
Hmm...a flail is meant to be one of the hardest weapons to master - so putting it in your left hand, and having another weapon as well is NOT ON.

Ever seen Bruce Lee dual-wield nunchakus? I don't see why a level 31 demi-god fighter couldn't do the same...

Originally posted by Masteraleph:
Drizzt duals scimitars, which although they're longer blades they're also curved, making the fighting style different (one edge, not 2).

What's the difference? You don't use the "upper" edge of a longsword either, that's just for show.

Originally posted by Stoner Cold:
it takes incredible hand-eye coordination just to not hit yourself

With the Flail, maybe. With the bastard swords... how are you gonna do that!? It's not as if two straight pieces of steel get tangled up or anything...

All this dual-wielding isn't really that hard. Takes some practice, that's all. After all, you do start out with -4/-8 untrained, which means a level 1 character cannot hit the broad side of a barn when dual-wielding.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Sat Sep 01, 2001 4:30 pm

Bastard swords are what are called intermediate weapons, which can be wielded with one hand but is heavier than a longsword, so you have a longer grip to allow for two handed use when making overhand or blocks. I don't think you can wield it one handed.

As for the flail, watch the movie el cid, with charlton heston. he uses a two headed flail in a fiht scene, and you soon realize what makes crom feyr and foa impossible for one person to use. The damned heads would get tangled up in the other weapon. With one flail, and shield, you can control and watch your weapon, and its pretty hard to tangle a flail on a shield, but with a hammer in the other hand, sooner or later you would get the flail tangled up in the hammer shaft. the only way to use both would be to swing at the waist, so both weapons are spinng outward at the enemy extended from your body. sorta like a demented top. course, forget about guard and blocking enemy attacks, you're a demented top on the battle field.

I don't really like the flail of the ages too much anyway, prefer crom feyr and mace of disruption or mace of easthaven for viccy.

aerie carries that big hammer, and its funny to see her with something that big chasing monsters.

Ooohhh... my fav is absolutely upgraded stormstar.

that nice chain lightning is so cool....

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Sat Sep 01, 2001 4:38 pm

Sorry about the off topic,

the point of the purifier as opposed to holy avenger is one is meant for shield and sword style and the other meant for two handed. It really depends on which you put your proficiencies in. I personally think both are rather blah weapons, and consider the hoopla about holy avenger to be vastly overrated.

Possibly because I play sorc and look aways for magical solutions?

ANyway, a bunch of skeleton warriors or planetars can provide as much pure raw damage and keeps your precious party members safe and well loved.

Thats why my tanks have been minsc or mazzy, since thier main purpose is to not get up close, but as snipers for the real tanks, my skeletons and swords.

as for legendary weapons, they're nice when you don't havve a choice about attacking, but I really see them as tool kits...

liches? mace of diruption
fire elementals, wave halberd
demons? foe bane
mind flayers? harmonium shield or psion blade.

I much rather think in terms of when I can summon creatures for particular situation, before I get whaled on by the nstys in a level.

Christian · Post by **Christian** » Sat Sep 01, 2001 6:43 pm

In reply to...er...someone.
Flails get caught up with other weapons, that`s obvious. Weight isn`t the problem, u can dual wield axes or even an axe-hammer or hammer-mace combo if you`re strong enough. The problem with to long blades is manuverability, they clash. Albeit not very often, I have practiced dual wielding in kendo, using a Daisho (shinai & tachi, bamboo equivalents for katana & wakizashi), and they kept clashing even then. Styles involving two katanas do exist, but are VERY VERY rarely used...

Meerlight · Post by **Meerlight** » Sat Sep 01, 2001 7:24 pm

Ok Koren, lets not forget this fact:

You would probably have 1 star in 2 weapon style where as a dual wielding character has 3.

mrnicetry · Post by **mrnicetry** » Sun Sep 02, 2001 4:06 pm

RE AD&D rules I agree dual-wielding mdium/large swords should not be done. But RE realistic practicalities dual-wielding two medium swords would be no problem at all. I have tried it - it is easy. (I do Escrima).

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Sun Sep 02, 2001 5:46 pm

Having spent the majority of my life (7-16) learning sword play and such, I have been tinkering with dual wielding a few times. The difficulty of dual-weilding has nothing to do with length or weight, it's balance. Regardless of how strong you are, weilding two swords that about 3 1/2, to 4 feet long is not going to be easy, especially early in your life. It takes people years to master how to use just one weapon, and it takes almost three times that amount to use two at once. In BG2, the only point the Dual weild holds is for power gaming purposes, although a few characters I could understand, if they had 2Hed skill, people like Keldorn, or one or two chars. from BG.

Meerlight · Post by **Meerlight** » Sun Sep 02, 2001 7:39 pm

Yes it is a question of balance but balance is a question of wieght! If a sword is magically lightened, it won't knock you off balance! Also, if balance is the question, then shouldn't dwarves have bonuses to dual-wielding because they are so heavy and their center of gravity is so low?

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Sun Sep 02, 2001 7:51 pm

@Meer: Your dwarves comment is true, but as we have all learned, this game doesn't go by logic very well. Also, Balance isn't really a matter of weight, it's how the weight is distributed.

Meerlight · Post by **Meerlight** » Sun Sep 02, 2001 8:01 pm

OK what if I am a 260 lbs Half-orc Male and want to dual-wield two 5 pound swords? That example is a little extreme but it could also work with a 110 human Female that wants to wield two 3 pound swords. My point is since the swords are magically lightened, there isn't as much wieght to throw a person wielding 2 weapons of balance.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Sun Sep 02, 2001 8:15 pm

@Meer: As I've already said, the weight and strength of the person using the weapons doesn't matter. Also, it doesn't matter if the sword is 3lbs. or if it's 30lbs. Very rarely are swords balanced. There is always more weight in the blade because it is further from your body. Also, because you'd be holding onto the hilt only (I doubt you wanna be swinging it holding the blade!

) the weight is more distributed to the tip of the blade, rather the hilt. Beleieve me on this, as I have trained in Broad Swords, Katanas (The six years of Martial Arts) Two-handed blades (Really a big fifty pound piece of wood that looked like a sword) and Shindos.

Meerlight · Post by **Meerlight** » Sun Sep 02, 2001 9:32 pm

I too have practiced swordplay somewhat. (a little fencing) But I excel at Dual Wielding two wooden baseball bats.

The way I swing and not lose my balance is I get lower to the ground and widen my stance by putting 1 foot ahead of me, bending the knee. (wooden baseball bats a damn heavy if you've ever used one.) The way I prevent the bats from striking eachother is that I swing both at the same time. For example: with my left arm, a backhand swing; with my right arm, a forearm swing. The other way you could attack without the lose of balance is to thrust with one weapon then slash with the other. Now taking these amatuerish techniques into account, a person with 3 *'s in dual wielding can easily use 2 baseball bats with ease.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Sun Sep 02, 2001 9:43 pm

How about this, let us clarify what 3*'s is eaual to... Let's say about 15 years of practice. Now, the only ones in the game really capable of that would be Jaheira, Keldorn, possible Minsc, and Koragn. Everyone else is only about twenty or so (Yes, even the PC) so, even there, it would be rare to dual weild, and rare to see it done so quickly. Again, it's another matter of reality and how they have to bend some rules to make the game fun.

Meerlight · Post by **Meerlight** » Sun Sep 02, 2001 10:13 pm

15 years of practicing 2-3 hours a day? How about dual wielding weapons in actual combat for an average of 4 hours a day for a little more than a year? That I think would qualify a character as an expert in dual wielding. (remember, experts in 2 weapon style still get a disadvantage with the off hand.)