The Baldur's Gate Series - Analysis *Series Spoilers*

[Quitch]

Well I've played through the entire series of Baldur's Gate once (and each of the individual games several times). It's an epic tale....what did you think? What did the games do right? What did they do wrong? How do they compare to the other Infinity Engine games?

Firstly, story. I rather liked it. A little cliche, but things become cliche for a reason, and realms of fantasy are always full of it. As far as stories within the games go, I feel Baldur's Gate drew me from chapter to chapter best, I always wanted to discover the goal of the Iron Throne and the identity of the armoured man. However the story didn't make me care for MY character, he was the most faceless member of the party.

With SoA came IMO the weakest story. The revelation of what Jon had done for me held no shock or horror. It was just another chase. Chapters 2 and 3 should have been a race against time to rescue Imoen, but there was no reason to go for her. In fact, the game became easier the longer you delayed. Unlike BG though, the plot got down to talking about you a bit, though so much more could have been done with the missing soul bits. As it was I simply gained a new ability.

ToB for me, worked the best. I finally cared for the plot surrounding my PC more than anything else. I wanted to beat that each new bad guy, because with each one that fell, I knew I would discover something new, something that for me held interest. It all came together beautifully, and though while I found the ability to simply give up your taint a bit of a cop-out (as well as the way they handled how Bhaal would return), it also provided you with the best endings (who wants to be forced down a route, or see a sad ending?).

The NPC epilogues was just a wonderful touch, no unaswered questions, the way it should be.

BG for best overall story, ToB for best PC story.

For complaints? I really only have one, ToB dialogue choices. Choices?? Sure, they were there, but so often it made no difference what you said, and it reduced the enjoyment I got from conversing with characters.

Actually I have another, one that became worse in BG2. Resting. In BG2 there is simply no downside to doing this, and it makes everything far too easy. The Asylm was hard, until I realised I could rest, completely without threat. Now I'm no trapped dungeon fan, I don't like being forced to have to wade through a very difficult dungeon, but this is just silly. Kill Kobold, rest, kill, rest.

Suggestions for future games? Learn from PST and include some description in the dialogue window, not just chat. There was evidence of how effective this could have been at the end of ToB if you followed the Jaheira romance......

*TEXT SPOILER*

Jaheira kisses you, then turns away, resigned to a decision she feels you have already made

Wouldn't the game have been more effective with some of this? The voice acting in the series was excellent, and almost always conveyed what was happening, but some more description would have been nice.

Now you'll have to excuse me, I'm planning my third series run through.

[Xyx]

Ah, nice run-down.

One of the things I like best in both BG1 and SoA is the complete freedom you have in the first half of the game. Literally dozens of quests and areas to choose from. This adds immense replay value. The storyline is good for the first time, but gets old after that. The side quests are always refreshing, because I never do them in the exact same order. Too bad it's either this freedom or a realistic storyline in which you have to hurry to free Imoen or save Suldanesellar.

While this game is easily the best imitation of real PnP play, it is still lacking severely in the AI department. You either lure enemies out one by one and the game becomes very easy, or you take them on all at once and are looking at quite a number of reloads. Being able to rest anywhere also detracts from the suspense (although I always get disturbed by Hobgoblins under the Copper Coronet...).

As for BG1's story being better... I think any story that starts at the beginning has a huge advantage over its sequel. Watching a level 1 character grow and develop creates quite a bond. Out of all the AD&D CRPGs before BG, the ones that started the epic made the biggest impression on me (Pool of Radiance, Champions of Krynn, Eye of the Beholder).

[VonDondu]

I liked the entire series. Considered as a whole, this is the best game I've ever played. But I do have a few complaints.

The first part, BG1, was really good until I reached the doppelgangers. The doppelgangers were weird, and their presence in the game made no sense. What were they trying to do? What was their objective? In the catacombs when you saw all of your old "friends" from Candlekeep (who had been eaten by the doppelgangers), it was too much of a self-referential parlor trick for me to stay in character and pretend the game was real. I felt the same way about Durlag's Tower. Up until then, I was really engrossed in the mysteries of the game -- my character's true identity, the villain's true identity -- but in Chapter Six, it went from being a story to being a video game for me because the plot was...well, dumb.

Shadows of Amn was a big improvement. The NPC dialogue was greatly expanded, and that's probably what I liked the most about it. I also liked some of the individual quests, such as the Unseeing Eye/Diseased Ones, the Sahuagin City, and the ranger subplot in Imnesvale. The storyline of BG2 actually made sense, although there were a few holes in the plot. Irenicus supposedly planned everything in advance (at least, that's what he said and that's what he wanted you to believe), but permitting himself to be taken into custody by the Cowled Wizards seemed very implausible to me. And it also didn't make sense for him to offer to unlock my character's potential and then change his mind and declare that my character was expendable. If he was supposed to be lying, he should have admitted his devious plan and said, "I tricked you, ha ha ha." As it was, his self-righteousness made him look weak and defensive, which is not what I wanted a villain of his stature to be. I was left with the impression that the story was pieced together instead of being cohesive. I, too, had complaints about the lack of motivation in the game - I rushed to Spellhold as fast as I could, and I tried to retrieve the Rhynn Lanthorn for Elhan as fast as I could, only to find that there was never any hurry for ANYTHING, no matter how supposedly desperate the situation was supposed to be.

Throne of Bhaal had a good storyline. But it, too, left me feeling a little unsatisfied. Watcher's Keep was an excellent adventure, but it disrupted the flow of events because it had no relation to the main path. Gorion's role was way too small in the entire series. If he was supposed to be a major influence on my character, he should have had a much stronger presence in the entire game. Jaheira should have been able to tell me more about him. My character should have dreamed about him. And when I finally learned the true identity of my character's mother, my first reaction was, "I thought that she was supposed to have been Gorion's lover?" But I did think that her true identity was a nice touch, and I was glad to see there was an explanation for Sarevok's grudge against Gorion as well as my own character. I was pleased with Sarevok's evolution as a character. I also liked the way that the villain was supposed to have everyone fooled, but unfortunately, I was never fooled, because the Forest Spirits gave away the secret in the first five minutes of the game. Gromnir was supposed to be "mad", but everything he said was true. Did you notice that? But he never got any credit. And when I had killed four of the Bhaalspawn, I knew there was still one more left, so why did the game assume I didn't know that? It was an insult to my intelligence. It was also annoying to listen to my character be accused of causing the massacre at Saradush (among other thing). Were the people in the game really dumb enough to blame it on my character? And why was I supposed to think that Balthazar was deranged? His motives really made a lot of sense to me, and I really did admire him for what he believed in. He was wrong about my character, but that was his only mistake.

I hate to sound so critical of the series, but since I love the game so much, I want it to be perfect. I would have enjoyed even more dialogue, but I was pleased with what there was, and I really enjoyed all the little humorous touches that popped up everywhere. "Bondari reloads." "Maybe the gods will come out with a third edition." "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!" "Everybody is waiting for [the main character] to show up on the scene and talk to her. It's not like we're surprised by that anymore." "I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that I'm supposed to solve your problem for you, right?" Yes, it was lots of fun.

[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: VonDondu ]

[Quitch]

The doppelgangers were weird, and their presence in the game made no sense. What were they trying to do? What was their objective?

The Iron Throne planted them to wreck all the companies that could compete with the Iron Throne, so that once the war with Amn started they would be the only company to turn to. It was a scam to make money.

I rushed to Spellhold as fast as I could, and I tried to retrieve the Rhynn Lanthorn for Elhan as fast as I could, only to find that there was never any hurry for ANYTHING, no matter how supposedly desperate the situation was supposed to be.

I agree. In actual fact the longer you left Imoen, the easier the game was. The subquests are a lot harder to do in chapter 6. Then again, in a game this big, how could you maintain a sense of freedom without the player suddenly finding the game was over because they didn't concentrate on the main plot enough?

I haven't managed to think of a good way of handling this yet, that maintains both plot structure and freedom.

It was also annoying to listen to my character be accused of causing the massacre at Saradush (among other thing). Were the people in the game really dumb enough to blame it on my character?

I think it's supposed to annoy you when you're falsely accused . Why wouldn't they blame you? Remember, by that point you're the most infamous of the Bhaalspawn, "Scourge of the Sword Coast" as they say during the game.

And when I finally learned the true identity of my character's mother, my first reaction was, "I thought that she was supposed to have been Gorion's lover?" But I did think that her true identity was a nice touch

Yes, Bioware tripped up there I think. What they should have done is suggest that who you thought of as your mother, was simply Gorions lover. The "died giving birth to you" could have turned out to be that she died around the time Gorion rescued you (she could have been with Gorion at the time). That would have held together.

[fable]

Storyline is a big drawback, as indicated: simply put, it resembles a cheesy thirdrate AD@D novel. The best fantasy CRPG storyline I've ever encountered was in Betrayal at Krondor, since there were three major simultaneous plots in action (and a host of secondary ones), all submerged at various times, with a master enemy who was really, truly a surprise at the end--unlike the so-called "surprises" in so many other products. It also ended with the death of one of the characters you were closest to, which was innovative. But then, so many of the innovations of BaK have been ignored by subsequent CRPGs.

[Silvanerian]

A way to do all the subplots in the game with a "good reason" would be if you wasn't able to collect the 15000 gp for Gaelen Bayle or Bodhi so damn easily.
Remember how Firkragg offers you 10000 for monsterhunting at Windspears. The first time I played I thought - wow! All my problems are solved....but what's the catch?
Anyway. You can rather easily assemble 15000 gp doing some small quests in the city. Doing Trademeet gives you more than 15000 alone!
I think it would have been better if the demand for the resque was say 50000. Not that it's totally realistic, but it would have involved the other quests. You would need to do a lot of the quests to be able to get to your precious Imoen.
That would have made more sence. What in the blazes do I care for a promise of 10000 gp wiping the Windspear Hills which is more than a day away, if I already have more than enough?
That's be biggest problem with the game: It's far far to easy getting money. It's so easy, that money it's even a factor anymore. That and the fact that you're able to get a LOT of overpowered items in the start.
"Look here, my good lord. I happen to have this overly seldom quaterstaff +4 you need to go bash the Demi-lich"
Why?!
That's why I usually only use bastard swords these days. You're not able to get a +3 enchanted one of those until you're at least 13th level.
Oh, one last thing. With all the godly skilled blacksmiths in the games (The smith in Beregost and Cromwell) I always thought that they eventually would offer to make you your "personal armour". I'm rather sick that my godly character have to walk around in ather adventures armour and use Sir whatever's sword.
Why couldn't I have got my own personal equipment as all the other heroes of Faerun do?

I think that BGI was best balanced in that appartment. And yet maybe not. You could get the full plate, Varcona+2 long sword and all that stuff at 3rd level...
Heh, but great games still.

-Silvanerian

[Xyx]

Originally posted by Quitch:
<STRONG>the longer you left Imoen, the easier the game was. The subquests are a lot harder to do in chapter 6. Then again, in a game this big, how could you maintain a sense of freedom without the player suddenly finding the game was over because they didn't concentrate on the main plot enough?</STRONG>

You mean the quests become harder because of beefed-up random encounters? An extra Lich or two doesn't exactly scare me in Chapter 6. Just press the Turn Undead button and watch them explode.

BioWare could have made storyline progression dependent on the player's pace by having Immy's abduction and Irenicus' move against Suldanesselar trigger through a sub-quest, instead of being automatic.

[Quitch]

You mean the quests become harder because of beefed-up random encounters? An extra Lich or two doesn't exactly scare me in Chapter 6. Just press the Turn Undead button and watch them explode.

If you head off to the Asylm the second you have 15 000 gold, then you are not going to be making Liches explode with turn undead by the time you get back.

It also ended with the death of one of the characters you were closest to, which was innovative

Also risky. Innovative and new doesn't always mean fun. Quite likely why Bioware stuck with the cliche, because the cliche is safe. Just look at the sales figures for PST.

I think that BGI was best balanced in that appartment. And yet maybe not. You could get the full plate, Varcona+2 long sword and all that stuff at 3rd level...
Heh, but great games still.

I think the BG series has suffered from the fact that, armour wise, it's always been so damn easy to obtain. I had my frontliners in BG outfitted with Plate by the time we were heading for Nashkel!

That was an interesting feature of PST, every time you knocked your AC down by just one point, it felt like a massive achievement.

Money is too easy to get. People go around begging, or starving, and I'm wandering around getting 30 gold from a barrel!

I disagree that it should have been harder to go for Immy. If anything, I think they should have pushed you after her faster. Prehaps when you hit 15 000 you should have been forced to make a call on who to go with.

[humanflyz]

The only complaint that I have about BG2 is that they added way too much rare and Uber weapons.

[Raidri]

humanflyz,

but it makes no fun if your are around level 13 or 14 (or higher) and all you get is a +1 or +2 weapon.
Think about it, you are a mighty hero, you find a weapon, identify it and then: "Oh wonderful, I've found a +1 longsword, mace etc., now I'm going to kill that old red dragon!" (sarcasm!!!)

I think a lot of people like this game because of these wonderful weapons. Without them the game would be much more boring.

[Quitch]

Hmmm, but they are rather easy to get a hold of. I mean, it's simply wrong that you have to stifle a yawn when you discover *another* +3 longsword.

[Obsidian]

My primary complaints are
a) The shear number of +3 weapons in ToB. Not so much the insanely rare ones, but when your looting +3 longbows and chaimail off EVERYONE you wonder why your BG char at best got +2.
b) You can't get your own personal armour weapons. I mean, Plate of ____ or sword/mace/axe etc of whoever would have made the game that much more fun.
c) The Ending (SPOILERS)

When you ascend to god hood, you don't get to say parting words to your comrades. How I would of loved to hand over Carysomar to Keldorn, and so many other things that were left unsaid and un repented.

Other than that, the game was great.
Has anyone else noticed that the BG 1 especially follows the plot of Highlander almost perfectly? I just realized this come me and some buddies had a movie marathon, and for some reason watched it.

[fable]

There really are far too many highclass goodies in BG2, but I suppose that's a fact of life when you skew the experience-gain curve to allow for 40th level characters. The only other ways for them to gain high-end items would be to buy 'em--possible, and I suppose they could have put an antiques dealer in with some extremely expensive goodies. Or you can finish a high-end quest and receive such an item as a reward; but typically, it takes such an item to finish the quest, in the first place.

Personally, I prefer the low experience curve and level ceiling of BG1. But a lot of players get off on what a character in P:T described as "those adventurers wielding a special weapon wots shoots lightning bolts out yer bum." Hell, how many people have done nothing but chortle over having a world-shaking weapon, even though it's actually no better for the purpose at hand--a world-shaking monster--than a +1 sword against a low-level monster?

What I do like especially in BG2 are the party interactions, including the battles beween alignments, and the apparent non-linearity and wealth of quests, especially in SoA's chapter 2. You really feel like you've been dropped into a completely interactive, evolving world at that point.

[Xyx]

Weapons can be interesting and fun without having huge "+"s or being common as muck. No-one ever even heard of a +6 weapon before ToB, and in PnP magical weapons generally don't lie in the streets even at high levels. Still, nobody thought that was boring.

A serious Diabloism has crept into ToB.

[ParadoxIncarnate]

Thanks Xyx, I just acquired another word into my vocabulary.

diabloism.

even noah would be impressed.

[humanflyz]

Diabloism. Now there's a word that I can use now to describe RPGs that are influenced by Diablo's gameplay. Thanks Xyx. Now I can say that "such and such game are examples of diabloism."

Seriously, I am not being sarcastic. I have seen too many games that tried to copy Diablo. Diablo for me was a novelty at first. All the RPGs I used to play before Diablo are all what you would call traditional RPGs. Diablo kind of opened up of a new door for me. It retains some RPG elements, but it's mostly action. The novelty was fresh until too many Pkillers on battle.net and way too many clones ruined it for me.

[Aegis]

I think this is a quote that sums up what we all feel towards the "uber" portion of the game...

"I'm William Wallace"
"Your not Wallace!"
"Aye, your right. If I were he, I'd be seven feet tall, and be able to shoot lighting bolts out of me arse!"

Personally, in ToB, I felt just like that. The amount of serious weaponery was so insane that I felt like I could shoot lightning bolts out of my ass! thats just not right for AD&D.

[Dottie]

Originally posted by Knight Errant:
<STRONG>My primary complaints are
b) You can't get your own personal armour weapons. I mean, Plate of ____ or sword/mace/axe etc of whoever would have made the game that much more fun.</STRONG>

Actualy a wizard or sorceress can, your aprentices in the planar sphere can make you a dagger of [name] though its a +1 or something i think

[Quitch]

One thing I missed in BG2 were the death comments. In BG1 almost every time someone died, someone else would comment. In a hectic fight, it really added to the atmosphere. I only wish that the NPCs would have sometimes overriden your commands when this happened (like Khalid ignoring you until he's killed the person who killed Jaheira).

In BG2 though these sounds were gone. Occsionally, someone (it always seemed to be Minsc) would say something, but it was so rare. When someone died it was almost as if no one else noticed. There was a reaction for Minsc if his witch was killed (he'd target the person who killed her), but you culd override it.

Also, BG had better structure I felt than BG2. You were free to both explore, and follow the main plot. It was all dished out equally. In BG2, you effectively do the entire freedom bit, then do the chapters, because very early on your are taken away from any freedom you had, and forced to follow a set path. Not as good as the BG way I'd say.

ToB was just linear, but that's understandable. Trying to finish the entire plot in an expansion, there isn't room for freedom

[fable]

Originally posted by Dottie:
<STRONG>Actualy a wizard or sorceress can, your aprentices in the planar sphere can make you a dagger of [name] though its a +1 or something i think </STRONG>

Yeah, but it's not personalized in the sense of possessing the characteristics you want, and (of course) your name. That was one of the nicer aspects of Daggerfall: you could craft a spell, weapon or armor to your exact specifications, assuming you had the gold. (And in Master of Magic, more of a wonderful strategy game, you could do that with armor, weaponry and magic items, too.) They still didn't have your name on them, but they were made to your exacting specifications.