The Baldur's Gate Series - Analysis *Series Spoilers*

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Fri Oct 05, 2001 8:46 am

I really wonder whoever made all those weapons, potions and scrolls in BG... If not even a level 31 Mage can do it, who can? Level 25 Thieves can scribe some scrolls, but who scribes the others?

THE JAKER · Post by **THE JAKER** » Fri Oct 05, 2001 9:34 am

Originally posted by Xyx:
<STRONG>I really wonder whoever made all those weapons, potions and scrolls in BG... If not even a level 31 Mage can do it, who can? Level 25 Thieves can scribe some scrolls, but who scribes the others?</STRONG>

The apprentices can make magic items, so i think the reason a high level mage character can't is because they are out on the road adventuring, not in a laboratory for months. You of course don't have the option of collaborating with Cromwell and setting up a workshop, though, which is just an oversight/omission of the game. Cespenar seems to be able to forge things just fine, why can't he show you?

I really wonder about the writing of scrolls - it seems to me that a high level mage should be able to make scrolls of any spell he/she knows, say in one day per level of the spell or something.

I wonder about the implementation of the thief's ability: they can make a potion and a scroll every day, but they don't know which kind they're making?!?! How does that work? It could be a potion of regeneration or a potion of speed??? Aren't the ingredients totally different? Oh well.

Raidri · Post by **Raidri** » Fri Oct 05, 2001 10:27 am

Wow, someone knows about Master of Magic.
A excellent (in my opinion)fantasy game, which I've on my computer still now.

But more about Baldur's Gate:
I think, BG1 was the resurrection of CRPG. Before this everyone says this genre is dead. No new ideas, only a very few CRPG's every year, whose no one wanted to buy. DIABLO was an exception, but it's more an action game than a roleplaying.
BG1 gave new impulses and it doesn't matter that not everything is perfect.
BG2 is the better part: wonderful NPC interactions, interesting enemies, good class specific quests and much more.
ToB is the perfect end for the series, also it's a little bit too linear. But it's an Addon, which is much better than many full prize games.

Think about it, that's my opinion!

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Oct 05, 2001 10:31 am

@Raidri, the development team that is currently working for Infogrammes on Master of Orion III is very interested in doing Master of Magic II, afterwards. Assuming MOO III goes well--let's hope.

Bobsy · Post by **Bobsy** » Fri Oct 05, 2001 11:02 am

[gonna show my ignorance here]

Isn't there some program which lets you patch in custom-made items? Wouldn't this be useful: make your very own sword, remove 20,000 gp with Shadowkeeper. Yeah.

Nightfire · Post by **Nightfire** » Fri Oct 05, 2001 12:22 pm

<severely OT>

Master of Magic II? That'd be interesting. I enjoyed the first game, though I must admit I never finished it ... while I can be patience personified when playing CRPGs, turn-based strategy is another matter.

</severely OT>

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Oct 05, 2001 12:30 pm

OT, as well--

Master of Orion III. Master of Magic II. Microprose started its downhill slide after MOM, and a planned successor never materialized.

Please excuse the spam. Bad moderator. Bad!

MistJaguar · Post by **MistJaguar** » Fri Oct 05, 2001 1:16 pm

bgteam has an item/spell editor/creator where in which you could create personilzed items and spells, it's actually quite easy and fun

just don't ask me how to add the dialog to go with your new item/spell, i've yet to quite figure that part out...

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Fri Oct 05, 2001 1:38 pm

<even more horribly off-topic spam>

Whoa! Master of Magic still lives on in memory!?

Next to Heroes of Might and Magic, that must have been the coolest strategy game I ever played.

I'd love to see the sequel.

I always considered Age of Wonders to be the MOM2 that never was...

</even more horribly off-topic spam>

Quitch · Post by **Quitch** » Fri Oct 05, 2001 3:02 pm

Cespenar seems to be able to forge things just fine, why can't he show you?

I rather think it might be because you're busy walking the road towards your destiny

Nirvana010 · Post by **Nirvana010** » Sun Oct 21, 2001 7:27 pm

hey, could someone tell me where I could get my hands on that item/spell editor/creator? sounds like fun...

Bobsy · Post by **Bobsy** » Tue Dec 17, 2002 4:56 pm

Overall, Bg2/ToB pips it... but only just. The locations and map system in Bg2 is just too stifling; the only places you can go (bar a couple of minor examples) are places you'll NEED to go. I desperately wanted to go around Athkatla idly robbing various houses. When I went off to find the De'Arnise Keep, I wanted to make my own way through the countryside, rather than a big 20-hour leap that totally broke the flow of the game and took away the authenticity of living in the Realms that Bg1 had done so well. Indeed, it is a real shame that locations became such a low priority in the game. Desert-dwelling arabian-style peasants wearing north-european dress? Uh, sure. Whatever.

But of course, the dialogues. Even though the NPC number in Bg2 was halved, it remains impressive that each and every NPC reacts with every other NPC (as far as I know... perhaps the more obscure ones like Cernd do not, but I doubt it). You get a sense of "realness" to the characters - they are no longer back-talking tools the player uses to progress through the game, but genuine characters that not only have their own opinions but react to the world and events around them as well as to each other, from the smallest exclamation between Korgan and Edwin to the complex Jaheira-PC-Aerie-Haer'dalis love quadrangle.

With regards to overpowering, it becomes a real problem in ToB. The shear volume of magical items floating around just seems silly, ignoring any actual value put into craftsmanship. I'd have been far more interested in seeing various shapes or product varieties in NON-magical items. The Nashkel village smithy, for example, could whip up a functional longsword out of cheap local iron for just 10 gp, but for real quality work you might fork out 200+ at Taerom Thunderhammer's in Beregost to get a magnificent glittering piece of razor-sharp art made from imported steel from Kara-Tur. Sadly though, the only judge of quality for a weapon seems to be how heavily some local wizard enchanted it. To put the BG economy in perspective, a single gold piece can keep the poorest family fed for several days (and of course "Apples! Apples! One copper!"). This makes the 15,000 gp finding-Imoen fee definately a massive amount. But getting over 15,000 for completing the Trademeet quest is ridiculous; the town may be wealthy, but this is just plain daft.

A final niggle with the series as a whole has to be the dialogue system: it always seems to involve the PC asking very short and blunt questions and getting huge amounts of reply. Not what I'd call a conversation. The upshots of this are that there is little room for self-expression as a character. Oh, and Gaelan Bayle's mockney accent is just RUBBISH.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Dec 18, 2002 5:15 am

Overall, Bg2/ToB pips it... but only just. The locations and map system in Bg2 is just too stifling; the only places you can go (bar a couple of minor examples) are places you'll NEED to go.

This decision was made in response to a lot of player feedback in BG1, where you could go where you wanted. Most people found it tedious pretty quickly, and wanted to get from one important location to another without everything in between.

In any case, it's still a lot less linear than the IWD series.

Complete agreement with your other points, particularly the one about overkill. In that single respect, I think BG1 was superior to its successor.

garazdawi · Post by **garazdawi** » Wed Dec 18, 2002 7:13 am

Originally posted by Bobsy
Overall, Bg2/ToB pips it... but only just. The locations and map system in Bg2 is just too stifling; the only places you can go (bar a couple of minor examples) are places you'll NEED to go. I desperately wanted to go around Athkatla idly robbing various houses. When I went off to find the De'Arnise Keep, I wanted to make my own way through the countryside, rather than a big 20-hour leap that totally broke the flow of the game.

The thing is that you do not want a game that is 10 CDs big when you release it. BG1 was 5 CDs with crappy graphics if you compare to BG2, imagine putting all of BG1 into the graphics of BG2 and then expanding the world you are in to be as big as the one in BG2, you are looking on 10 CDs minimum, and 7-8 gigs of space for a full installation

No game THAT big can be successfull 2day, in a decade it will be nothing but as it is now, the normal joe won't have enogh PC to run a game that is 7 gigs big (I'm of course guessing on the amount of CDs).

I was a big fan of the long strides out in the outback in BG1, but i undersatnd why Bioware chose to excude them from BG2 and TOB

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Wed Dec 18, 2002 11:18 am

Originally posted by fable
But a lot of players get off on what a character in P:T described as "those adventurers wielding a special weapon wots shoots lightning bolts out yer bum."

That would be the "Holy Flamin' Frost-Brand Gronk-Slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' Woundin' an' Returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-Out-Yer-Bum".

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Dec 18, 2002 8:55 pm

Originally posted by Sojourner
That would be the "Holy Flamin' Frost-Brand Gronk-Slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' Woundin' an' Returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-Out-Yer-Bum".

Now, this is one fantasy weapon I admit I'd love to see in reallife.

Provided, of course, I wasn't doing the wielding, myself.

You know, what this genre needs is a really creative, whacked out, extemely well-developed CRPG that lampoons the genre. Kind of like Steve Meretzky's 1994 hit, Superheroes of Hoboken, with its heroes who could (for instance) increase cholesterol, and televangelist units whose special move was to Raise Funds.

Bobsy · Post by **Bobsy** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 4:29 am

Originally posted by fable

This decision was made in response to a lot of player feedback in BG1, where you could go where you wanted. Most people found it tedious pretty quickly, and wanted to get from one important location to another without everything in between.

Well indeed, it's a double-edged sword, and achieving a good balance (as displayed in NWN's efforts and a tiny bit in ToB) is necessary. I vastly preferred the authenticity of making my own way, and experiencing the dangers of the road without them being such obvious random encounters.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 1:25 am

I don't mind the existence of wide-open spaces, and in fact, I like them in a lot of ways. The only thing I don't like about them is having to walk across them, which gets frustrating because it takes too much real time. Boots of Speed help (as does the cheat key Ctrl-J). It would have been nice if the BG series had a "run" feature just like Planescape: Torment (which proves that an Infinity Engine game can have it), or preferably, a more realistic "run" feature like the one in Diablo 2, which can leave your character winded and out of breath when your character reaches the limit of his stamina.

I just started a new game of BG1 a few days ago and soon had to confront the question, "What should I do now?" The game nudges you towards the Friendly Arm Inn and Nashkel. As you progress, the main quest is revealed bit by bit by clues in letters and things like that. But the main quest doesn't cover much territory, when you get down to it. Most of the maps are devoted to side quests. Going from one area to the next doesn't shed much light on the situation unless you happen to stumble into something that gives you a new clue. Certain NPCs present you with time limits to perform their own pet quests, such as investigating the mine and hunting bandits, which advance the main storyline, or storming the gnoll stronghold and turning in wyvern heads, which are really distractions from the main storyline. The game also leaves clues about Ulcaster School, Firewine, Durlag's Tower, Werewolf Island, Prism, Bassilus, Captain Brage, etc., which, again, are actually distractions from the main quest when you get down to it. If you solo the game and don't talk to all of the NPCs on the street, you might not have any sense of direction at all apart from the main quest.

The first time I played the game, I deviated from the main path because: 1) I wanted to see everything, and 2) I needed to build up my characters to face their enemies. Now I find myself wondering if it's so bad if I don't go far out of my way, for example, to kill a few gibberlings, pull some hidden treasure out of a mountainside, and rescue Samuel. This brings up the question, "Do I need to do every quest in the game?" Does it really matter if I do any of them? Not really. Does it matter when I do any of them? Not really. I'd want to "do it all" if I had never done any of it before, but this time around, I feel unmotivated. The first time I played the game, I felt like I was just stumbling around, which wasn't a bad thing, but now that I know the game inside and out, I find myself troubled by the question of what I should do next because I wonder why I should be doing any of it. Coming from someone like me, who has always loved replaying these games, that is a strong strike against replayability.

When I replayed Shadows of Amn many times, I tended to follow the same "script" each time because it was efficient, I enjoyed it, I felt comfortable with it, and I had a strong sense of motivation, because I knew that I was heading somewhere. When you get down to it, doesn't that make the game linear? I'm a little surprised by that realization, but I actually liked it that way. Coming from someone like me, who has always loved replaying these games, that is a strong mark in favor of linearity.

Some of us have talked a lot about Planescape: Torment recently, and I think we all agreed that it has a great plot. I'm doing my best to be fair and intellectually honest, and I've reached the conclusion that the main reason why the plot of PS:T seemed so much better than the plots in BG1, SoA, and ToB wasn't so much because of the story itself, but rather because the story was fleshed out so well in the dialogue, and everything you could do in the game had something to do with the main plot. What's more interesting, the plot synopsis of a really great story accompanied by a few completely unrelated short stories, or the same plot fleshed out into a full-length novel? The answer is obvious to me, and I think that explains the difference between PS:T and the BG series.

serjeLeBlade · Post by **serjeLeBlade** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 6:16 am

Originally posted by VonDondu
The answer is obvious to me, and I think that explains the difference between PS:T and the BG series.

And I think that this will finally help me to decide what to install next....
Play BG1 again or try PS:T?
I'll take your advice and I guess I have to thank you a second time today

Cheers!

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 9:09 am

You're quite welcome. I hope you enjoy PS:T.

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The Baldur's Gate Series - Analysis Series Spoilers