Items Question with Dual classed charackters??

RaistlinTheMage · Post by **RaistlinTheMage** » Sat Dec 29, 2001 12:28 pm

Have this question:
1. Can a Fighter/Kensai switched to Mage wear an armor like the elven chain +5(allowed when switched from Fighter/Berserk to mage), or can he only wear cloaks/robes from the mage class, like robe of vecna?

2. Can a Fighter/Wizard-Slayer switched to mage wear any magical equipment like ring of gaxx, cloak of mirroring, ring of protection +3 etc.. or is he limited to wearing stuff allowed to his former class(Wizard-Slayer)

3. If 1 and 2 fail i ll make a Fighter/berserk switched to mage, but my favourite is 1. and 2.

Any help is appreciated!

mfg Raistlin

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Sat Dec 29, 2001 12:54 pm

the ftr kit restrictions trump everything except use any item for dual thieves.

i.e. no armour for kensai / mage ever. nor wizardslayers using magic toys.

1. this should not be that big a deal, there are plenty of armour spells you could use, + robe of vecana is way better anyhow.

RaistlinTheMage · Post by **RaistlinTheMage** » Sat Dec 29, 2001 1:11 pm

ok thank you for your fast help.

But then i take Fighter/Berserk Kit switched to mage, because of immunity to Imprison, 2+ thaco/+2 damage +15 hp(if i go berserk), the use of armor(like the +5 elven chain ++ the spells(stoneskin, shield, ghost armor etc..)) and finally the spells like tensers transformation(double hitpoints), improved haste etc.. .
I only wanted to ask this, because Kensai have the attack which makes max damage(Kai) and Wizard Slayers have a lot of MR.

But wearing the cloak of mirroring(which reflects any direct attack like Magic Missile, Death spell etc...) and i cant use it as Wizard Slayer, or the missing ac(like Kensai Kit) makes me favourite the berserk kit/mage.

Reasons therefore: High ac(through the use of elven chain +5, immunity to imprisonment, the use of all magic equipment, like ring of gaxx etc...)

I think this is then best kit Kit i can play, to solo SOA and TOB(ok, ok in BG i ll take party, because with weaker lvls(like in BG lvl 1-7) i need a party to finish the enemies, in SOA in starting too, but later when i reach somewhat higher lvl like 15 or 16 and i dual class(i am weak then too) , but later on its the (my thinking) strongest char on FAERUN, without beeing a GOD.

but thnx for your help, you have me done the work of some hours of finding out , which class is best.

mfg Raistlin

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Sun Dec 30, 2001 2:55 am

You are missing something, IMO.
I posted a similar topic once, being
a berserker/mage fan.
Then I tried the Kensai/Mage and discovered
many things: first of all the -2 AC Kensai
gets is applied AFTER every piece of equipment and spell. So even without preparations, and without bracers AC3 I have a better AC than I had with the berserker
mage.
If I use ghost armor (which last pretty long)
I reach -10 or best. And still you can have
blur, improved invisibility.. with Tenser I
go to -21/-22. And still I have to find the
ring+3, the ring of Gaxx, etc!!!!
Add to this that in my opinion you are vastly
underestimating the Robe of Vecna, this is commonly seen as the most powerful item for
mages of all kind (this one really makes you godlike!!).
So if you use Robe of Vecna, the Kensai has
actually, and in any moment, a better AC.
If take the berserker, you can go for Elven Chain and improve your AC only by one or two points (remember Kensai apply -2 AC after all
the rest), and you lose the Robe of Vecna,
this seems mad to me. Also Elven Chain grants
immunity to normal and +1 weapons, useless, for you can get it in any case.

In conclusion: Berserker/Mage is still great
for the rage immunities (but maybe you can find it
more fun with the kensai avoiding the bad effects with spells like spell immunity).
The kensai is incredibly more powerful in any
melee aspect. Believe me. If, for some reason, you have a higher AC, you won't notice, enemies simply last too short.
Try Melf Meteors with the Kensai!!!

Two great combinations, but you have made your choice for the wrong reasons, IMO.
And definitly, go for Vecna!!!!!!!

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Sun Dec 30, 2001 5:08 am

Some numbers to explain, with equivalent items:
Berserker/Mage:
Amulet of Power
Robe of Vecna (AC 5)
Bracers AC 3 (cancel the effects of Vecna on AC)
Ring of Prot +2
Ring of Wizardry
Helm of Balduran (+1 AC)
D'akkon blade (+1 AC)
Celestial Fury
A belt (choose to help avoid the most feared weapon)
Cloack of the Sewers (+1 AC)
Boots of Speed.

Let's assume you have 18 DEX. You reach -6 AC.

Kensai/Mage:
Amulet of Power
Robe of Vecna (AC 5)
No bracers (the only really unused slot)
Ring of Prot +2
Ring of Wizardry
Ioun Stone (+1 AC) (there are better ones in TOB)
D'akkon blade (+1 AC)
Celestial Fury
A belt
Cloack of the Sewers (+1 AC)
Boots of Speed.

Again, 18 DEX. Totals -4 AC. BUT HERE enters the PERMANENT
-2 AC for the Kensai.
So, again, -6 AC!!!!!! Best of all, if you cast Ghost Armor
(Base AC to 1), you go to -10, as opposed to - 8 of the
Berserker/Mage.

Actually, using Vecna, the Kensai has a "better" AC.
Let's see what happens if you give up Vecna for Elven Chain
(I mean, if you' re mad enough to desire such a thing):
The berserker wears Elven Chain + 5. He can change even the Bracers
and take some melee enhancer ones.
His AC (Base) is set to 0. His total becomes -9 AC.
Good improvement. But keep in mind this: you cannot gain further
benefits from Ghost Armor.
While other spells are simply additive (+3 AC blur, +4 Imp. Inv.,
+4 Tenser), so we can use them on both chars, Ghost Armor sets the
base AC to 1. With the "armored" berserker/mage, you have already
a better one, so nothing changes. The kensai/mage, who still
has Vecna, casts Ghost Armor, and, as I explained above, he
goes to -10!!!!!
Casting Ghost Armor, the Kensai/Mage HAS A BETTER AC EVEN
COMPARED TO THE "ARMORED" BERSERKER/MAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And still ha has the Robe of Vecna!!!!!!!!
In other terms, if the two cast all the protective spells,
the kensai/mage will reach in all cases a better AC (by one point)
And consider that 2 Ghost Armor cover a fair amount of time.

Really, in choosing between berserker and kensai kit, you
don't have to consider AC. It's not the point. Actually, the
kensai may be better in this field.
Consider the +4 THAC0/+4 DMG of the kensai (dualling at 12th),
and the kai ability, over the berserker's rage, and make
your choice.
And, for God's sake, leave Elven Chain to fighter/thieves
and buy the Robe of Vecna, and enjoy the -4 to casting time!!!!!!

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Sun Dec 30, 2001 5:51 am

Uhh... I forgot one thing!
If you use the Elven Chain, you CANNOT wear ring of
protection +2!! (or +3)!!!!
This should definitely demolish all arguments in favor
of the chain.
Take my example above and make two changes, let's add
ring of Gaxx in place of the ring of Wizardry.
"Armored" berserker with Gaxx and another ring: -9 AC
no gains from Ghost Armor

Kensai/Mage with Gaxx AND ring +3: -9 AC
with Ghost Armor: -13 AC!!!!
And still he has Vecna!!!!!!
Simply forget about the chain, and take Vecna.

The berserker/mage (with Vecna!) is good in mid game for the
rage defenses, very useful in solo.
The kensai/mage (with Vecna!) is more powerful in the end,
when those immunities are less essential, you can do easily
without them, so basically he has only pros.

RaistlinTheMage · Post by **RaistlinTheMage** » Sun Dec 30, 2001 7:16 am

ok very much thanks for the lot of info you have given me, thats more i have ever imagined!!!

But your aspects seem to be the right one, and ill try Kensai/mage(after this-> started yesterday Berserker/mage and wanna finish this one first) but in next atempt i ll try solo Kensai/mage.

By the way, i dont wanna dual class by lvl 14 this char-> i thought about dual classing something about lvl 22(because of gw) and then play in party (like sarevok and edwin) until i reach lvl 23 with mage and then continue on solo.

We see, in 2 weeks or so i am more intelligent about it.

mfg Raistlin

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Sun Dec 30, 2001 7:43 am

Sorry, I didn't want to invade this topic, it's only that I've played a lot with these chars!

And I'm not the only one!

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Sun Dec 30, 2001 3:09 pm

One last raccomandation: I assumed you have
the bugfixes from Baldurdash!
To fix things like Imp Invisibilty not granting the intended bonuses.

As for the whirlind, I suggest a workaround:
since it's really a long run to 22th (and then again to 23th) you'll end playing two
pure classes, and ONLY in the very end, a superpowerful dual-class.
You may want to use this trick, if whirlwinds
are all you want:
Take dual wield style. Choose a weapon and achieve grand mastery. Then download the gran
mastery fix from baldurdash. It's not cheating IMO 'cause you'll face lots of enemies and they too will benefit from this fix (which resets the rules for Grand/Mastery
as they were in BG1, rounded down for "game balance"). In ToB there are many enemy fighters, you'll be more powerful but they will be too.

Dual at level 13 + dual wielding + Grand Mastery (fixed) = 9/2 attacks per round.
With Improved Haste, 9 attacks!!!!!!
This is a fair sostitute for whirlwinds,
just take enough Improved Haste (some items
can cast it too).
Whirlind grants 10 attacks per round, but you
can't do more than this (casting Imp. Haste
or so, 10 is the MAX).

Actually, this way is even better, a whirlind
lasts ONE round (or two maybe??), Imp Haste
a round/level (a round/level with 9 attacks!!!).
There's no more need of whirlwinds!!!!!

RaistlinTheMage · Post by **RaistlinTheMage** » Mon Dec 31, 2001 11:14 am

Its not only the gw with which i wanna wait until lvl 22, also i like to have hardiness! (40% less physical damage taken) which is of course woth waiting to that lvl.

By the way a good rush into new year i wish ya and all "rpg freaks".

Make good party and we see btw hear us in new year.

mfg Raistlin

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Tue Jan 01, 2002 5:52 am

The Kensai may have a slight numerical advantage over the Berserker, but you don't really notice much of a difference between AC -6 and AC -8 or THAC0 1 and THAC0 -5 when playing the game. You do notice the difference between being Confused, Panicked, Charmed, Mazed, Imprisoned, Stunned or not.

Kensai looks good on paper, I admit, but you'll have to try the Berserker Rage immunities to find out how much of a difference they make (fighting Beholders, Dragons, Liches, Mages, Mind Flayers...).

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Wed Jan 02, 2002 3:04 am

I DO love berserker/mages!
Simply noticed that is incorrect to say that kensai/mages
have a worse AC.
Anyway, I did notice also that in the end of the game I wasn't
using rage anymore. I simply had too much powers to need it.
But throughout the game, rage is great.
About my last note, I add that without the mastery patch you
should get 8 attacks/round, still enough I think.
And hardiness is a great ability, it may be worth it.

RaistlinTheMage · Post by **RaistlinTheMage** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 2:56 pm

Finally got it through TOB(lvl of my PC lvl 24 fighter/berserker///lvl 33 mage)

the lvls until 25 mage lvl reached was hard, very hard(used to have minsc and sarevok in party-> so lvling up took 3 times instead of soloing)

but after that, all was easy, except (demigorgon and last battle ascension mod which i did solo(this was really hard))

my next try is kensai/mage, i will start soon

by the way i used my old char from BG with stats like this:
str: 19
dex:19
con:19
int:18
wis:17
char: 7

throughout bg2 and tob i came to this stats:
str:20
dex:20
con:20
int:19
wis:19(tear of Bhaal quest)
char:8(tear of Bhaal quest)

so all in all very powerful

mfg Raistlin

DaJir · Post by **DaJir** » Sun Jan 06, 2002 9:52 pm

i say berserker mage cause any lack they have in the ac and thac0 department is greatly outweighed by the invuls that berserker rage gives and more importantly, all the nifty warrior gear. gotta love that simmy helm, frees a valuable spell slot which rules for those trigger happy casters such as myself ;p.

just my 2 cents