Reactions to the bugpatch

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 5:38 pm

YESSSS! I post the first topic here! I get 1 million US dollars, and the chance to moon Dubbyah Bush!

(cough) Okay, so I got a bit carried away. In any case, what do you think of the implementation of the various bugfixes in the recent big patch to ToB that Bioware released? How do you find the game responding to the patch? Can you see the differences? What do you like, and what do you want changed so swiftly that it should have happened last year?

Arch_Angel · Post by **Arch_Angel** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 6:01 pm

I am finally able to tell my characters to sleep until healed - and they actually DO heal all the way up. I don't know maybe I was expecting a little more from the patch, there is still a lot of things that people are complaining about. Yes it is good that they have finally released a patch, but why take so long? I mean look at baldurdash, and a few others here in the forum who are fixing things up much faster (and better) than Bioware seems to be doing. If they are actually under a lot of time restrictions and have a huge work load perhaps they should contract out some of the work to some of the die hard fans. It doesn't have to be the REALLY important stuff, but look at all the fixes done over on the baldurdash site. They have made the game much more enjoyable and bug free through the work that they have been doing. A BIG thanks to all here who have written patches and fixes for the game!!!

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 6:24 pm

I still don't understand why they didn't include all of the Baldurdash fixes for SoA, even though Kevin Dorner basically threw the whole lot into their lap...

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 6:28 pm

@Xyx, I wonder if the problem was incompatibility with ToB's code. Kevin himself has acknowledged this incompatibility, going so far as to create an uninstall for his fine fixes.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 9:11 pm

I would like to see the hasting bug fixed, once and for all.

Sargon · Post by **Sargon** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 9:27 pm

I second that Sojourner, and all the hard work Kevin D & Co. did should've been in ToB from the get-go and tested as such.

*mutters*

I think I've almost got a hack/fix for the haste problem, but I'm unsure how to handle the added initiative bonus :\

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 9:53 pm

Did Kevin contact Bioware and make his patches available? Were his patches compatible with ToB? Do you have the answers?

Yanlee · Post by **Yanlee** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 10:00 pm

I have noticed a bug with energy blades.

I always seem to lose them if I enter a new area, save the game etc. This can be quite annoying, as I like to carry over remaining baldes to the next fight, and they are too good to waste.
The spell is supposed to last for 4 turns, so the problem isn't caused by the spell expiring.

I was hoping it would be included in the patch.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 2:45 am

From what I understood, Kevin Dorner has offered all his patches to Bioware.

My guess is at least 90% of them work fine with ToB, since they only fix minor oversights in stuff that ToB does not touch. I sincerely doubt that Bioware has gone through all of his fixes and only came up with two or three that could be used.

GrimReaper · Post by **GrimReaper** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 5:53 am

I haven't actually downloaded the new patch yet, but I have looked through the list of fixes and all I can say is, it sucks. Sure they fixed a lot of problems, but (as everybody else said) why don't they include Kevin's fixes. They've already been made. How much easier could it be? It makes no sense to me. Anyways, does anyone know if Kevin is working on fixpack for ToB? I think we all agree that it is much needed (I want that archer attacks per round fixed).

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 7:59 am

Originally posted by Xyx:
From what I understood, Kevin Dorner has offered all his patches to Bioware.

My guess is at least 90% of them work fine with ToB, since they only fix minor oversights in stuff that ToB does not touch. I sincerely doubt that Bioware has gone through all of his fixes and only came up with two or three that could be used.

But @Xyx, if that's the case, why did Kevin himself put in place an uninstaller for his SoA bugfixes? Apparently, they *don't* work with ToB, or he would have been able to leave 'em. This makes good logical sense.

Sargon · Post by **Sargon** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 8:17 am

Kevin didn't have ToB when it first came out (at least that's what I recall him posting at one point).

I'd be willing to wager that he made the uninstaller to prevent any unknown problems from showing up - he had *no* way of knowing one way or the other if his (and the others involved) works *would* work with ToB. Nor could he know which ones *might* work, which ones would *not* work, yadda yadda. That's a lot of uncertainty...

He did the smart and responsible thing - he covered his @ss from a hoarde of emails telling him "Ur pach stuff fuxedup my TooB install!"

This also makes good, logical sense, no?

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 9:36 am

Originally posted by Sargon the Blade:
Kevin didn't have ToB when it first came out (at least that's what I recall him posting at one point).

I'd be willing to wager that he made the uninstaller to prevent any unknown problems from showing up - he had *no* way of knowing one way or the other if his (and the others involved) works *would* work with ToB. Nor could he know which ones *might* work, which ones would *not* work, yadda yadda. That's a lot of uncertainty...

He did the smart and responsible thing - he covered his @ss from a hoarde of emails telling him "Ur pach stuff fuxedup my TooB install!"
This also makes good, logical sense, no?

He actually posted shortly after ToB came out in the BG2 topic on this, following several complaints about incompatibility between his patches and ToB. The uninstaller appeared shortly afterwards. So there *was* a compatibility problem, rather than the suspicion of one. And I can understand Bioware's unwillingness to "fix" his bug patches, and to continue working on their own--after all, they want all the fixes to work together. It's not just a case of stringing a bunch of little fixes together that don't interrelate.

Sure, I'd love to see things move along more quickly. But after the complaints that "Bioware's abandoned ToB," it's clear they haven't, and that they're in the process of fixing the game. I wish it could be done a lot quicker, but I've witnessed games (like Imperium Galactica II) where a single, very poor patch came out--in beta--and that was all the developers ever did to fix a potentially great game.

Will Bioware fix everything? Does anybody? Other than Kevin, of course.

[ 08-21-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Quitch · Post by **Quitch** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 1:00 pm

Fable, I have paid what must be about £60 now for this game, yet there are still bugs. Why?

The bugs are all listed, it's not as if Bioware doesn't know they exist. Why is the Imoen stat bug still there? For game balance I'd understand, but she's still listed as a level 7 thief, while having level 6 thief stats, so its obviously been overlooked. It's sloppy beyond belief.

Bugs on release I understand, it's a big game, it happens. However this game has been out for a year, the bugs have been catalogued. It is disgusting that they haven't fixed the script bugs.

If this was a film and there had been glitches, you'd be getting money off. Why should we accept flaws in games which still exist a year after release even after being pointed out to the developers? It's not as if BG2 wasn't a hit.

As for the Kevin Dorner patch, that's easy. Some of the SoA files have been changed, but he doesn't know which ones because he hasn't finished ToB yet so understandably doesn't want to go through them.

Why would he know it was incompatible until informed? He took the appropriate action. If Bioware had done it right, his bugfix wouldn't even be required! He's one guy who has identified and tested (with some inputing on the identification front) a massive number of bugs, fixing them wherever possible. Bioware have a fully paid, full time, TEAM of programmers and QA guys, but they've been outdone by a single man doing it for a hobby.

Yet some people think Bioware are doing everything they can? Don't make me laugh. I mean, how could two BREAKS (not buggy sections as in SoA) in the Jaheria romance get missed? How could a broken rest until healed not be noticed to be broken? These are really OBVIOUS AND EASY TO SPOT BUGS!

This patch is too little, and waaaaaay too late.

[ 08-21-2001: Message edited by: Quitch ]

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 1:43 pm

Originally posted by fable:
why did Kevin himself put in place an uninstaller for his SoA bugfixes?

For the remaining 10% that affect ToB, would be my guess.

Add to that the fact that he can't "guarantee" that everything works as it should without testing first.

A lot of Baldurdash's fixes are "simple" (as in I wouldn't know how to do it) flag setting (limiting scimitars to Shapeshifters or such) and deal with parts of the game that ToB does not touch (most SoA items and side quests).

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 3:36 pm

Quiltch writes:
Fable, I have paid what must be about £60 now for this game, yet there are still bugs. Why?

I don't know. What did Bioware tell you when you wrote or called them?

The bugs are all listed, it's not as if Bioware doesn't know they exist. Why is the Imoen stat bug still there? For game balance I'd understand, but she's still listed as a level 7 thief, while having level 6 thief stats, so its obviously been overlooked. It's sloppy beyond belief.

You've let Bioware konw your feelings directly, right? I mean, that is the best way to communicate dissatisfaction with a product: a user that has proof-of-purchase (even if it's just a charge card receipt) contacts customer service, or failing that, at least calls the company for some answers.

So what did Bioware reply to your remarks?

[ 08-21-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Laurelei · Post by **Laurelei** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 5:09 pm

Just for any who are interested, this whole haste/dual wield thing has a very interesting thread on the Black Isle/Bioware forums [url="http://feedback.blackisle.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002828"]here[/url].
Needless to say, there are lots of complaints over there about haste/dual wield and other non-patched bugs that one would think the developers couldn't miss if they actually read their boards

. Complaints about a great many bugs have been posted for many months which still seem to be not addressed by the patch. So to the question "Have you contacted Bioware directly" most of us who have been posting there would say "Yes, we have tried posting on their own forum and many of us have posted many times about the many same and repeatable bugs that we are all having, how can they miss it?"

Mini-gripe aside, a couple of my observations about the patch:

There ARE some things not listed on the patch list that WERE fixed. One was an annoying teleport loop that sometimes occurred if you tried to kill Jarlaxle and his mage-friend in the Underdark. Another was a kind of "un-nerfing" of weapon proficiencies above 2 points (an extra 1/2 attack is now added for 3, 4 and 5 points). Yet another is the correction of hit points for multiclassed characters which are imported from BG1 (they were getting double hit points).

When I start a new game I may find to my pleasant surprise that other minor things that I used to "play around" have now been fixed. Hope springs eternal, as it were

One of those may just be the Imoen thing. Has anyone actually started a new game with the patch to see if her thief abilities have been corrected? I haven't yet, so I won't bother grousing about it. If it isn't fixed, I'll just use Shadowkeeper to fix it myself. Seems like something so easy for me to fix (takes about 2.5 seconds) would be easy to slip into the latest patch, but I'm past caring about bugs that don't crash my game or otherwise halt my gaming experience.

God bless Bioware for their imaginative and innovative story that got me hooked, and double-bless Kevin Dorner, and Manveru, and Sabre, and the guy who invented Shadowkeeper for keeping me from throwing the game and my computer out the window

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 5:33 pm

Laurelei writes:
So to the question "Have you contacted Bioware directly" most of us who have been posting there would say "Yes, we have tried posting on their own forum and many of us have posted many times about the many same and repeatable bugs that we are all having, how can they miss it?"

Writing on boards isn't direct; contacting customer service is. Many companies (such as the one I worked for when I was a dungeonmaster for a very popular MMORPG) tell their staff they can answer questions online if they want to, but that they neither have to read the boards, nor reply.

Customer service departments are there just for that purpose. So, if you really want answers, or at any rate, really want to get your point across, that's the place to go.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 5:55 pm

Actually, I just noticed a thread up on the Bioware boards that seems to be watched closely by the developers; but it's not the one you posted in, Laurelei. Check it out: [url="http://feedback.blackisle.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=009947&p=1"]http://feedback.blackisle.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=009947&p=1[/url]

If nothing else, it appears to be a good place to list your concerns. Kevin posts there, too. (Personally, I think we should all chip in to buy him a week's vacation so he can finish ToB and patch it successfully.)

[ 08-21-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Laurelei · Post by **Laurelei** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 5:02 am

@Fable: That's just DaveG, planning his next addons. Don't get me wrong, Dave is the greatest of the Bio-warians, and the only one on those boards who seems to interact with the fans on a regular basis, but he's not fixing bugs or doing anything there in an "official" capacity, he's just playing with creating tougher Bhaalspawn battles and custom romances. This is cool stuff, again I am not implying I'm not grateful, but Kevin has become the person most fans on that board turn to for bugfixing, and it's important to note that he does NOT work for Bioware.

As far as directly contacting Bioware, I have to 'fess up that I DID send them a multiclass character via email from BG1 who was getting double hit points when imported into BG2. I also zipped up and emailed a save game in which I was getting the Jarlaxle teleport loop. Although I was never contacted and noone even acknowledged receipt of my emails, they did fix both of those bugs, so in my personal experience contacting Bioware MORE directly than via the forums worked. I have no way of knowing whether my personal little emails had anything to do with those fixes, but it would seem that your suggestion of contacting them directly is a valid one. Now that the patch is out, I'm not sure what else they're planning as far as fixes go, but if you have a save game with a repeatable bug, and a modem that will allow you to upload huge zip files in less than several hours

, then go to [url="http://www.bioware.com/bgate2/bg2reporting.shtml"]http://www.bioware.com/bgate2/bg2reporting.shtml[/url] and follow the instructions there.

I agree, the fans owe Kevin a BIG debt of gratitude for all he does. He is one of my idols for sure

[ 08-22-2001: Message edited by: Laurelei ]