The Lord of the Rings...

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sat Jan 19, 2002 10:05 pm

Originally posted by Knight Errant:
Especially since the Halflings are 2nd level at the most when they leave...

I agree. Sam would've been a level 1 Bard, I think; while Merry, Pippin, and Frodo were probably multi-class level 1/2 Fighter/Thieves? IIRC, the fighter/thief multiclass reaches level 2 thief before reaching level 2 fighter. Though, if the halflings could dual class, I'd say Merry and Pippin were level 2 Thieves who later dualled to Fighters, while Frodo either started as a thief and dualled to fighter as soon as they set off(thus never getting above level 2 thief) or was a multi-class fighter/thief.

PoD · Post by **PoD** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 3:34 am

I don't have too many problems with Gimli or Legolas being >10 (apart from balance) but Rangers start to get spells at level 8. At 9 they get access to 2nd level spells, and so on...

Aegnor · Post by **Aegnor** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 7:11 am

Originally posted by Knight Errant:
Yes, I suppose the power gaming of BG 2 has gotten to my head.
Especially since the Halflings are 2nd level at the most when they leave...
Aragorn I see at at least lvl 12 when they first meet. I mean, he kicks the **** out of the Nazguls.
Boromir, level 10 but with a heavy const.
Legolas, higher level, the guys several thousand years old. At least 14.
Gimli, level 12.

OK, I can go with Aragorn as level 12 - that way he does get a few more healing spells (though some would contend he just uses herblore). And Boromoir at level 10 ensures that he has heaps of HP, which he needs to soak up all those arrows (BTW, I like how in the movie he only took 3 but they were HUGE sticks of wood) and still have a death monologue.

But why put Gimli and Legolas so high? Just because they're older (Legolas at least), doesn't mean they are more experienced. I mean, maybe Legolas spent the better part of his youth playing computer games instead of...oh, wait, that was me, not him

@PoD - yes, so much of AD&D (the version I played) was based in LOTR iconography. I bring up the Balrog because it puts the power levels into perspective. If we consider the balor as being a Balrog, then we have an idea of what levels the Fellowship must be, i.e., not high enough that a balor would be a winnable fight.

Did you ever see the first printing of AD&D's Deities and Demigods? It must be a collector's edition, because it includes two sections that were later removed for copyright infringements: Moor****'s Melnibonean mythos and Lovecraft's Cthulu mythos. I recall having an assassin character who wielded Mourneblade...talk about powergaming! Each hit drains 1/2 or all levels, and each level drained confered temporary strength, con, and HP to the wielder. Also a chance of berserking and attacking party members when draining levels this was. Way unbalanced, it was, but then our DM started sending us undead and such creatures that he deemed immune to level drain...ahh, the memories!

[ 01-20-2002: Message edited by: Aegnor ]

Robin_Hood · Post by **Robin_Hood** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 1:29 pm

Nice thread.

Well, I don't know if Legolas was thousands of years old, but he is probably older than the others, let off Gandalf. But he was a pretty damn good archer, and was good at using his dagger/scimitar. I think the fighters of the Fellowship should be about the same level. After all, they were all the ones chosen to represent their people. Gandalf, of course, should be a high level char: an incredible mage and a very capable fighter.

The balrog is much tougher than a balor. At least according to my experiences in BG2, balors aren't THAT crazy. I mean, balrogs were about the hardest possible creatures to kill in the first age of the sun, and if I have understood correctly, heroes of that time were a lot tougher than the heroes LotR.

Gandalf was more powerful than Saruman, from the beginning, might I add. He didn't have the permission to use all of his powers until the time is right.

Aragorn is a ranger, no doubt. A human as well. And his sword is Anduril, not Alundil, and it is either a long sword or a bastard sword.

Boromir. A fighter, good aligned.

Legolas: An archer. Long bow. I think he should have a wakizashi or a scimitar or somthing like that, because at least in the finnish books, he had some kind of a light sword. Or a very long knife.

Gimli: A fighter with an axe.

Merry and Pippin: I think both should be straight fighters. They are both dressed up in armorsuits in the ind and all that, to me it's obvious that they're fighters.

Frodo and Sam are somekind of fighter/thieves in my opinion...

About their weapons: Frodo's Sting and Gandalf's Glamdring were crafted in Gondolin, so they are OLD and POWERFUL, probably something like +5. The hobbits' swords were from Numenor, so they should probably be about +3, maybe +2. Anduril should be something like +4 or +5, though. The other chars' weapons should be magical...not too powerful though, maybe +2.

Hmm, that's all I can think of right now...took me a while to read all the posts, that's why I reply this late

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 4:23 pm

To drag up Aragorn's race...

D&D treats half-elves differently than Tolkien did. In Middle Earth, half-elves become either Elven or Human. The ones that become Human still exhibit certain elven traits, such as heightened awareness and a long lifespan. Therefor, Middle Earth has Elves, Humans with Elf-like traits, and "ordinairy" Humans.

D&D has Elves, Half-Elves and Humans.

I believe the closest translation of a Human with Elf-like traits is... Half-Elf.

Wolf_pd · Post by **Wolf_pd** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 8:54 am

Legolas is, according to the movie, some 2300 years old (don't harass me when I missed the number by 500). I guess that's time enough to gain some experience.
Sting and Glamdring from Gondolin? Where is that mentioned? In the Silmarillion? I forgot to take the book, so can't check it myself, but on the other hand, in two weeks, a new computer and six months off (from college), so I guess I will have a bit of time then

Robin_Hood · Post by **Robin_Hood** » Tue Jan 22, 2002 6:55 am

Sting and Glamdring from Gondolin? Where is that mentioned?

I really don't remember where it was mentioned, but I'm 100% sure I've read it somewhere in the books. It could be one of the many encyclopedias, too...but I think it's in LotR or Silmarillion. I've got a slight hunch, that it might one of stories about the Istari and Gandalf...or Thorin. Or both

What's the of the book with many stories? It contains the story of Isildur's death, something about the Istari, a longer version of Túrin's story and so on...could be on that one. I think it's a nice detail, that even weapons have a long "history." I mean, it adds more depth to those 3 swords, they're not just magical swords, they're swords from Gondolin, the greatest elven city after Tirion.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Tue Jan 22, 2002 2:16 pm

Originally posted by Robin_Hood:
I really don't remember where it was mentioned, but I'm 100% sure I've read it somewhere in the books. It could be one of the many encyclopedias, too...but I think it's in LotR or Silmarillion. I've got a slight hunch, that it might one of stories about the Istari and Gandalf...or Thorin. Or both What's the of the book with many stories? It contains the story of Isildur's death, something about the Istari, a longer version of Túrin's story and so on...could be on that one. I think it's a nice detail, that even weapons have a long "history." I mean, it adds more depth to those 3 swords, they're not just magical swords, they're swords from Gondolin, the greatest elven city after Tirion.

Seems like I recall it being mentioned in LotR when it speaks of the fact that those swords, being elvish made, will glow blue if there are orcs around.

Cray · Post by **Cray** » Thu Jan 24, 2002 10:09 am

As to the portraits, i've created some myself from the official pictures of the film:

http://www.cell-alliance.de/lotr_portraits.zip

Size = 136 KB
Contains portraits of: Frodo, Gandalf, Legolas, Gimli, Aragorn

Greetings,
Cray

Wolf_pd · Post by **Wolf_pd** » Sat Jan 26, 2002 4:50 am

Seems like I recall it being mentioned in LotR when it speaks of the fact that those swords, being elvish made, will glow blue if there are orcs around.

That would be a nice effect to use in the game. Glowing swords when there are orcs around. Not that you need it that much in BG2, but still.. Same thing as a throbbing dragonslayer-sword (or as Lilarcor would say :"Kill, kill, kill, muhahaha!!").

I watched the movie again and there is one thing bothering me, I have checked all the shots Legolas makes and I haven't found one which he missed! How can you translate this to the game? So which stats to adjust? Not that I need such character, but it bugs me

MegaToerist · Post by **MegaToerist** » Sat Jan 26, 2002 5:59 am

I watched the movie again and there is one thing bothering me, I have checked all the shots Legolas makes and I haven't found one which he missed! How can you translate this to the game? So which stats to adjust? Not that I need such character, but it bugs me

Since Orcs are rather common in Middle Earth, it is rather probable that Legolas has them as favored enemies. Add this +4 to his archer bonus and dexterity adjustment, and you have a very decent THAC0...

Legolas: Archer (lvl 9):

Base THAC0: 12
Archer Bonus: 3
Dexterity adjustment: 3
Racial Enemy: 4
=> Modified Thac0: 2

Orc, wearing studded leather armor and shield: AC 6
=> Needed roll: -4

He will almost never miss

TC, Geert

Obsidian · Post by **Obsidian** » Sun Jan 27, 2002 12:42 am

Thanks Cray, I owe you.
As for Legolas, I I think hes more than lvl 9, but ya, point taken, at -4 roll I can't think of a shot off hand that he could miss....

thanks a lot guys., its been a good thread!

MegaToerist · Post by **MegaToerist** » Sun Jan 27, 2002 2:16 am

I don't see why Legolas would be of any level higher than 8 or 9. Normally, these characters tend to be rather rare in a D&D world, so even getting that high would prove your worth. They usually are found somewhere among the top ranks of an army. Remember that "normal" people, including most soldiers, are 0-level characters. Geeting a 1st level in any class is quite an achievement...
As for the argument that Legolas had time enough to advance in levels, remember that Elves are care-free, and don't spend their time adventuring. Also, the last noterworthy war the Elves fought happened quite some time ago. It's rather hard to earn those levels when you kill maybe 5 or 6 Orcs every year.

TC, Geert

Denarth · Post by **Denarth** » Sun Jan 27, 2002 2:22 am

a way out of the Gandalf vs. Saruman debate would be to attach their relative powers to a magical item instead of level or XP. How about a magic cloak

. Call them Istari Cloak of White, Cloak of Grey, Istari Cloak of Brown. Can only be worn by Mages.

Hence, Saruman the White before his downfall was defintely more powerful than Gandalf the Grey. Gandalf having much higher wisdom and constitution(?) than Saruman. Gandalf's resistance to be sucked in by Sauron can be attributed to constitution? or intelligence. And a higher wisdom to know better than to temp himself by staring into the Palantir Seeing Stones. Now Saruman would have an extremly high charisma, maybe a high natural roll with some kind of ring enhancement.

This fits well with the fact that a mere mortal took Saruman down in the end. The Istari (coucil or gods or whatever) stripped Saruman of the white cloak leaving him none, gave it to Gandalf, now Gandalf the White. So in the end Saruman is just a medium level mage and Gandalf needn't be some 30/60lvl something or other.

The magic item fix also works for the Boromir berserker, paladin argument. Boromir, IMO, is a good candidate for a fallen Paladin (cavalier sounded nice). If not Paladin, definetly lawful good fallen to chaotic good ( and ultimately would have ended at chaotic evil?). He doesn't rage normally, though due to low intelligence/wisdom/lore is more likely to slice first and ask later. As well as be corrupted by the Ring.

The"cursed" One Ring ultimately changes a characters alignment and decreases abilities (i guess it would all hinge on a PC's beginning alignment). The Ring does not even have to be worn to influence, i.e. players in closer proximity are affected more than those further away, as well as the duration spent in such proximity. And simply even knowing of its existence affects your character.

Other...
Aragorn is 99% Ranger, must have special abilities to Lay Hands, and some 'nature' spells, ala athelas. The half-elf is a harder issue if trying to constrain to bg2 as is, if you open up the rules, he is definately half-elf. Not a pure 50/50, definetly more human than elf, but he has elf blood.

tfeld
(aka Denarth, until gambanshee replaced my screen name with email name...whats up with that??)

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sun Jan 27, 2002 7:48 am

Aragorn is a Ranger. Rangers can heal people. The distinction between Lay On Hands and Cure Moderate Wounds is trivial compared to other aspects of the Tolkien-D&D translation.

As for the One Ring decreasing abilities... on the contrary! Frodo's senses are sharpened, and he sees and knows things he would not have otherwise (such as Galadriel wearing one of the Three Rings, where Sam only sees a star shining through her fingers).

The One Ring's powers depend upon the wearer. A more powerful wearer (such as Gandalf) would be able to unlock much more of it's energies. Sauron wouldn't wage war against all of Middle Earth just for a ring that can turn him invisible.

@Denarth: You can send an email or private message to Buck and ask him to correct your screen name.

Denarth · Post by **Denarth** » Sun Jan 27, 2002 5:38 pm

@Xyx... True it does sharpen some abilities other than the PC listed abilities. I'm not an ADnD or BG expert by any stretch, but how would you classify enhanced hearing, 'far-seeing', and invisibility. I would submit that these enhancements are artificial in the sense that the ring is ultimately evil and will gnaw at the characters innate sense of goodness. The enhancements are all part of the allure of the power one could wield if they wore it, thus ensnaring a good aligned character in the Ring's evil designs.

I would also say that the Ring attributes would be dynamic in nature. Slowly changing a PC's abilities ( I guess constitution, wisdom and whatever) The Ring attributes would be a fairly complex item to incorporate to a game.

How the PC holds up under the influence of the ring can be derived from the PC natural ability rolls. Frodo and especially Bilbo have high Constitution rolls in the beginning. But in the end (each time they gave it up, willful or not) it did alter them. Also slowly ate at ones strength. Remember Sam giving Frodo the piggy back ride. So I would say that for a good aligned character, the ring would have degrading affects over time. Most prominently would alter alignment and PC abilities.

Yes Gandalf and Sauron would definetely be more powerful ringbearers. And so too would be the huge risk (for a good aligned player) if one were to be corrupted. ( which everyone knows is the ultimate design of the ring when held by a good aligned player). A corrupted Gandalf I would say obviously changed in alignment, but also changed in Wisdom. Now Sauron of course would just chew up Middle Earth and spit it out later if he got a hold of it. Gollum, I think, would have been chaotic neutral changed to chaotic evil. Saruman, only knew about it and it changed his alignment. Denethor same way. Boromir went barbaric or berserk when brought so close to it.

@Xyx...btw v.nice work on the spells reference. I visited recently at the recommendation of UserUnfriendly.

What say you about the Istari Cloaks of Color?

Wolf_pd · Post by **Wolf_pd** » Mon Jan 28, 2002 12:51 pm

Cloak colours for the Istari? Sounds interesting and is very easy to use in the game, as the different ones are distincted by their colours (Gandalf: Grey, Saruman: White, Radagast: Brown and the two last ones were blue).
As for the debate on experience for Legolas, if he is send by Elrond with the Fellowship, then surely he is some way a master in his field. Elrond wouldn't have send newbies (except for the halflings).
Something else, I came past the Balor in BG2 today. If compared with a Balrog I think it fits quite nicely. Putting some lowlevel characters against it would be the same as in FotR in Moria.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Mon Jan 28, 2002 1:14 pm

Originally posted by Denarth
How the PC holds up under the influence of the ring can be derived from the PC natural ability rolls. Frodo and especially Bilbo have high Constitution rolls in the beginning. But in the end (each time they gave it up, willful or not) it did alter them. Also slowly ate at ones strength. Remember Sam giving Frodo the piggy back ride. So I would say that for a good aligned character, the ring would have degrading affects over time. Most prominently would alter alignment and PC abilities.

Yes... the piggyback ride. I see what you mean now.

Resisting the Ring for an extended period of time makes it feel "heavier" and reduces the bearer's Strength. Note: "bearer" not "wearer".

Wolf_pd · Post by **Wolf_pd** » Tue Jan 29, 2002 3:06 am

Also the fact that the ring came closer to its master made it heavier to bear, but that isn't workable in BG2, only if you would be able to put in something similar with the ring and Irenicus.

I have found the source from the swords Sting, Glamdring and Narsil (said to be), but I forgot to write it down, anyway, it was not Gondolin, but some dwarvensmith from Belegost, but relics nonetheless.

Aegnor · Post by **Aegnor** » Tue Jan 29, 2002 7:51 am

Perhaps we can look to the "slayer change" ability to get ideas for the one ring. Like the slayer change, "using" the ring would open up a dialogue whereby the bearer must "give up" a part of themselves (sacrifice of constitution instead of reputation), and then there is a chance every use of alignment change, or morale failure: flee. In any case if deliberate use were to raise stats (temporarily) then this might reflect the different effects on different characters.

One ability that would make the ring's power vary would be to give it an "improved alacrity" charge. So Gandalf, Galadriel, etc would become more powerful, (or even a high-level fighter, since high level fighter abilities work like spells, don't they?), but Frodo would probably get no benefit here.

Just a thought.