Debate

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 7:01 am

Originally posted by frogus

a being which is limited by his own laws cannot exist. It's impossible.

Who makes that judgement? Is it your decision?

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 7:05 am

Don’t judge a religion, whether that religion is Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, or Christianity, by the way its teachings are twisted and abused by its so-called followers for their own evil purposes. Is it the fault of Mohammed if Osama Bin Laden twists the teachings of the Koran to justify acts of terrorism? Is it Christ’s fault if murders are commited in his name? If you read the New Testament (you really should, even apart from this debate), you will find no support whatsoever for most of the examples you gave above.

I know that the God does not tell people to do evil, but if they are, and doing it in his name, then he is like a helpless lab technician who cannot help that whenever he tries to do something good, it blows up and kills people.

I cannot blame God for the abuse of his name, but I can blame him for making his existence known to mortals, and thus giving his name to be abused.

My point is just this, if nobody knew about God, then they would absolutely not be able to abuse his name.
(and I think that above examples are quite enough reaon for that to be a good thing)

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 7:09 am

Who makes that judgement? Is it your decision

It's logic I'm afraid. Surely you can see that if God created the difference between right and wrong, then there must be no difference to him?

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 7:12 am

I don't see the logic here.

Originally posted by frogus

a being which is limited by his own laws cannot exist. It's impossible.

Well, for one thing, don't WE make our OWN laws/constitutions which limit us to do certain things? But then again, I won't entertain this reply of mine since for me to compare God at a level equal to that of Man is preposterous.

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 7:23 am

Well, for one thing, don't WE make our OWN laws/constitutions which limit us to do certain things?

no, me and MM are talking about something different. People make laws that say you can only drive at 75mph, but that law doesn't actually limit us. I could steal my dad's car right now and do 80mph just for the fun of it.

The very fact that we make the law of cars only being allowed to drive at 75mph means that we are capable of doing otherwise.

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 7:27 am

Man CHOOSES to do evil things, not God.

Originally posted by frogus

I know that the God does not tell people to do evil, but if they are, and doing it in his name, then he is like a helpless lab technician who cannot help that whenever he tries to do something good, it blows up and kills people.

I cannot blame God for the abuse of his name, but I can blame him for making his existence known to mortals, and thus giving his name to be abused.

My point is just this, if nobody knew about God, then they would absolutely not be able to abuse his name.
(and I think that above examples are quite enough reaon for that to be a good thing)

When good people die for WHATEVER reason or circumstance that befell them, God takes care of them in the Afterlife. - that is what we Christians believe in. Whatever sufferring that we go through life, for as long as we follow the Path, the Way, then God rewards us with something that EARTHLY possessions couldn't possibly be rewarding enough.

In the end, justice will be served.

It is not God's Will to control us like thralls. From a Catholic point of view, if it were otherwise, then people like you would be believing in Him to high heavens.

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 7:33 am

Agreed.

Originally posted by frogus

no, me and MM are talking about something different. People make laws that say you can only drive at 75mph, but that law doesn't actually limit us. I could steal my dad's car right now and do 80mph just for the fun of it.

The very fact that we make the law of cars only being allowed to drive at 75mph means that we are capable of doing otherwise.

...and God can choose to raise my grandfather from the dead if He wanted to. He can but it's His judgement not to do otherwise.

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 9:41 am

...and God can choose to raise my grandfather from the dead if He wanted to. He can but it's His judgement not to do otherwise.

what?

When good people die for WHATEVER reason or circumstance that befell them, God takes care of them in the Afterlife

this doesn't make kiling them right in the first place.

It is not God's Will to control us like thralls.

I didn't say that it was.

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 9:42 am

yay 100 posts

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 7:05 pm

Originally posted by frogus

It's logic I'm afraid. Surely you can see that if God created the difference between right and wrong, then there must be no difference to him?

God did not create the difference between right and wrong, goodness and evil. Goodness and righteousness are the very NATURE of God, and his laws (recognized either through nature, conscience, or Scriptural revelation), flow necessarily out of his moral nature. So the good or the right is neither arbitrary, nor is it something outside and above God.

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Sun Feb 24, 2002 7:27 pm

Originally posted by frogus

a being which is limited by his own laws cannot exist. It's impossible.

Not when those laws flow out of his very nature (see above).

God can do the impossible, but he cannot do the unimaginable. This is an important difference. For example, God cannot create a square-shaped circle, or force an individual to do something voluntarily, or make darkness shine bright like the sun. To do these things would not only be impossible, it would be unimaginable. Try it! Think of a square-shaped circle. I'll bet you a million dollars you can't!

In the same way, it is impossible/unimaginable for God to tell a lie because God is the embodiment of truth, and of course no lie can come from the truth. God is limited by what is unimaginable, not by what is impossible. I hope this makes sense. I get head-aches just writing this!

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 8:38 am

Originally posted by EMINEM

Before I respond, I think you oughta clarify what you mean by "suffering." I agree with you that many people in the world are suffering, but suffering in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing.

Sometimes it can even be a good thing.

For example, the last time I visited the dentist to have a root canal, I experienced "horrible" suffering (he didn't use enough freezing IMO). The pain was worth it, however, since the alternative was the permanent loss of a molar and the eventual recession of my gums. So in a way, one form of suffering prevented a greater form of suffering from taking place.

???? You want me to explain what suffering is? I don't think I need to do that. With all respect to your suffering in the dentists chair we both know that this is nothing compared to the suffering that happens in the world every second.

Children, women the old and week - suffer the most and in the most horrible ways. BUT you say that suffering is not bad in itself. What? Well let them rot then. - I don't think you yourself believes this.

Not even the most callow and insensitive would use this argument against helping people. ( Example. Yes yes we know that the children at the orphans home is being beaten and raped on a daily basis but suffering is not bad in itself).
We both know what suffering is.

So lets get back to it. You have not replied to my argument that god cannot exist as he is described in the bible.

And you have not given proof or evidence for the existence of god.

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 8:45 am

Originally posted by Tom

???? You want me to explain what suffering is? I don't think I need to do that. With all respect to your suffering in the dentists chair we both know that this is nothing compared to the suffering that happens in the world every second.

Children, women the old and week - suffer the most and in the most horrible ways. BUT you say that suffering is not bad in itself. What? Well let them rot then. - I don't think you yourself believes this.

Not even the most callow and insensitive would use this argument against helping people. ( Example. Yes yes we know that the children at the orphans home is being beaten and raped on a daily basis but suffering is not bad in itself).
We both know what suffering is.

So lets get back to it. You have not replied to my argument that god cannot exist as he is described in the bible.

And you have not given proof or evidence for the existence of god.

So you believe that God (as described in the Bible, which I assume you've never read seriously, nor completely) cannot exist because horrible suffering in the world exists? Because evil and suffering exist, God cannot exist? The two are mutually exclusive? Is this what you're trying to say?

Tamerlane · Post by **Tamerlane** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 8:50 am

Originally posted by Tom
And you have not given proof or evidence for the existence of god.

No proof is needed. Religion thrives on faith, you either believe in it or you don't.

However you could argue the creation of universe into this. As my uncle a firm Catholic man once told me when discussing the Big Bang Theory. He quoted someone who once said "In the beginning there was nothing which exploded" He believed that something divine was responsible for the creation of the universe.

Therefore if you asked him that exact question he would state that God created the universe. To him that was proof enough of his existence.

Well thats my 2 cents

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 8:56 am

Originally posted by EMINEM

So you believe that God (as described in the Bible, which I assume you've never read seriously, nor completely) cannot exist because horrible suffering in the world exists? Because evil and suffering exist, God cannot exist? The two are mutually exclusive? Is this what you're trying to say?

You saw my argument.

here it is again.

If you read the bible, especially the new testament, it is claimed that god is a moral agent. It is also claimed that he is very powerful.
Undeniably a lot of people are suffering in this world. some of them horribly.
Now I think that we can agree that god, according to the bible, is powerful enough to stop the suffering of these people.
A moral agent would stop the suffering of people if it was within his power.
Ergo. God is either not powerful enough to stop the suffering or he is not a moral agent.
Ergo. God can not be as he is described in the bible since the bible describes him as both powerful and morally good.

So?

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 9:14 am

Originally posted by Tamerlane

No proof is needed. Religion thrives on faith, you either believe in it or you don't.

However you could argue the creation of universe into this. As my uncle a firm Catholic man once told me when discussing the Big Bang Theory. He quoted someone who once said "In the beginning there was nothing which exploded" He believed that something divine was responsible for the creation of the universe.

Therefore if you asked him that exact question he would state that God created the universe. To him that was proof enough of his existence.

Well thats my 2 cents

Proof is definitely needed, as far as Judaism and Christianity are concerned. Christianity is grounded in both faith and historical fact. It's not just something you believe in. Otherwise, you render religion indefensible against empirical examination.

The creation of the universe argument that you mentioned is known as the Cosmological argument, one of the classic defenses for the existence of God. I don't want to get too much into detail about it now (I want to address Tom's problem with evil first), but essentially the argument goes like this:

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

The astrophysical evidence indicates that the universe began to exist in a great explosion called the "Big Bang" 15 billion years ago. Physical space and time were created in that event, as well as all the matter and energy in the universe. Therefore, the Big Bang theory requires the creation of the universe from nothing. Thus, what the Big Bang model requires is that the universe began to exist and was created out of nothing. From the very nature of the case, as the cause of space and time, this cause must be an uncaused, changeless, timeless, and immaterial being of unimaginable power which created the universe. In a word, God, as described in the Bible.

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 9:32 am

Originally posted by EMINEM
The astrophysical evidence indicates that the universe began to exist in a great explosion called the "Big Bang" 15 billion years ago. Physical space and time were created in that event, as well as all the matter and energy in the universe. Therefore, the Big Bang theory requires the creation of the universe from nothing. Thus, what the Big Bang model requires is that the universe began to exist and was created out of nothing. From the very nature of the case, as the cause of space and time, this cause must be an uncaused, changeless, timeless, and immaterial being of unimaginable power which created the universe. In a word, God, as described in the Bible.

Why does it have to be 1 being. Maybe there were a bunch of them.
Maybe some alien race before us blew up a hydrogen atom and made the universe.
Maybe a little hydrogen atom felt like exploding and did so.
Maybe it did so, because Bill Gates told it too.

Ubik · Post by **Ubik** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 9:37 am

M&M

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Isn't it fun to use Aristotle's arguments to dismiss positivism?

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 9:49 am

Originally posted by Tom

If you read the bible, especially the new testament, it is claimed that god is a moral agent. It is also claimed that he is very powerful.
Undeniably a lot of people are suffering in this world. some of them horribly.
Now I think that we can agree that god, according to the bible, is powerful enough to stop the suffering of these people.
A moral agent would stop the suffering of people if it was within his power.
Ergo. God is either not powerful enough to stop the suffering or he is not a moral agent.
Ergo. God can not be as he is described in the bible since the bible describes him as both powerful and morally good.

So?

No atheist has ever been able to show a logical inconsistency between the propositions "God exists" and "Evil exists." Attempts have been made, but no one has ever been able to show that those two are contradictory. In fact, you can actually show that they are CONSISTENT by adding a third proposition, namely, "God has morally sufficient reasons to permit evil." As long as that third proposition is even possibly true, it shows that God's existence and evil's existence are logically compatible. You seem to assume that if God has morally sufficient reasons for permitting evil, we have to be privy to them. But there's absolutely no reason to think that that is true.

That said, I think God allows evil and suffering to exist because that is the necessary corollary to human freedom. God cannot guarantee how we are going to use that freedom. And if he intervenes every time to prevent people from choosing evil and causing unjust suffering, then we are reduced to soulless puppets or Data-like androids with advanced C++ programming.

If God is going to create a world of significantly free moral agents, he has to allow them to make choices for evil and unjust suffering, and therefore it may not be within God's power (or God’s will), to create a world of free creatures in which evil does not exist. You may be proposing an unimaginable situation (see the square-shaped circle argument above). I hope that helps.

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 9:51 am

Originally posted by ThorinOakensfield

Why does it have to be 1 being. Maybe there were a bunch of them.
Maybe some alien race before us blew up a hydrogen atom and made the universe.
Maybe a little hydrogen atom felt like exploding and did so.
Maybe it did so, because Bill Gates told it too.

Uh... yeah, sure. That must be it.