Is the Fantasy Genre Stale? - No Spam

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 7:03 am

It seems every fantasy novel i read and every fantasty movie that is produced leaves me slightly cold.

Is it just me or is there a lack of invention in this genre. Every outcome seems to be the same, there is some oppressive evil, a mismatch of heros go off to defeat this evil, then they come up against all manner of foes, possibly they pick up some other members along the way, then they defeat that evil.

This pretty much sums up most of the fantasy novels i have read. Does anyone have any reccommendaitons for any more inventive fantasy novels, or am i better plumbing the depths of the fantasy genre?

To be honest Baldurs Gate has a much more intriguing story line than many books of the same ilk.

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 7:10 am

I couldn't agree more, a lot of the books follow the same pattern which is a shame because a lot of the writers are extremely talented. What else can you do in a fantasy genre though? Would the bad guy win? No! That isn't a fantasy. I'm intrigue too as to what books to read. I need to find the Drizzt books. Can anyone list the whole series for me? Thanks

Tamerlane · Post by **Tamerlane** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 7:24 am

Yes, the genre is stale except for the amazing writing skills of Terry Pratchett. The guy has an amazing talent of mixing comedy with fantasy

Don't have to put up with any of those tired cliche remarks. In other words, I like the Discworld novels.

@ Mr. Sleep

If your tired of reading the boring mess thats called fantasy.
I recommend the Granny Weatherwax mini-series or the tales of Rincewind the Wizzard found within the Discworld series.

Onyx · Post by **Onyx** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 7:28 am

just try
http://www.rasalvatore.com/
it's R.A. Salvatore's site.
He's the guy's that writes all this stuff.
There is a whole list there, and more stuff also.

Onyx

Ned Flanders · Post by **Ned Flanders** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 7:28 am

scroll down here to check out all his titles

onyx beat me to it

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 7:32 am

Originally posted by Onyx
just try
http://www.rasalvatore.com/
it's R.A. Salvatore's site.
He's the guy's that writes all this stuff.
There is a whole list there, and more stuff also.

Onyx

That is the thing though, R.A Salvatore spawned a great deal of the fantasy genre, and so many writers follow from his work and his ideas, i have read a bit of the more recent and it all reminds me of the earlier work of the founding fathers of fantasy.

Onyx · Post by **Onyx** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 7:36 am

Well here is one sci-fi/fantasy movie all must watch.
And i know that Mr.Sleep will agree.
Dark City, a must to see.
Go rent it, buy it, whatever, just watch it.
I love that movie.

Onyx

Onyx · Post by **Onyx** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 7:37 am

Originally posted by Ned Flanders
scroll down here to check out all his titles

onyx beat me to it

Sorry Ned.

Onyx

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 7:37 am

I have read a bit of Moor****'s work, he seems quite inventive, but even he succumb's to many of the more standard cliche's

@Onyx, i do agree, a great movie

Onyx · Post by **Onyx** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 7:39 am

Has anybody read "The Cleric Quintet"by R.A. Salvatore.
I haven't read that yet. Any good?

Onyx

Der-draigen · Post by **Der-draigen** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 7:40 am

Frankly, I find that pretty much every novel I pick up and skim through, seems to be a rip-off of Tolkien. Maybe because he invented the genre, a kind of formula has been developed based on what he did? Like with romance novels, for instance. Did y'all know that the rules of formula for romance novels are so specific, there are certian words to describe a sunset, etc.? And if the author wants the novel published, they have to stick to the formula. Maybe the same thing is going on in the fantasy genre.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 7:46 am

Originally posted by Der-draigen
Maybe the same thing is going on in the fantasy genre.

It wouldn't surprise me, getting published is a very difficult step for most authors, so i guess they try to stick with genre. So should one presume that the staleness is the fault of publishers then?

Tamerlane · Post by **Tamerlane** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 7:53 am

Originally posted by Mr Sleep
So should one presume that the staleness is the fault of publishers then?

I'd say yes. Just look at the music industry. So-called established bands and singers doing covers???

That has to be a sign.

Onyx · Post by **Onyx** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 7:53 am

Originally posted by Mr Sleep

It wouldn't surprise me, getting published is a very difficult step for most authors, so i guess they try to stick with genre. So should one presume that the staleness is the fault of publishers then?

Up to a point, yes, it is the publisher’s fault.
Well, I can only say this for the games industry, since that’s where I work. So any new game that we do a presentation to publishers, the first question they usually ask is, "...and which game is this like? Is it a quake game or a whatever game?"
And you try to convince them that you have a new idea and it's worth the risk. I don't think so. They just want the guarantied sales, and that’s all. If a football game sell’s big this year, next year they all want football games. Well, the most of them. Sigh, I could go on forever.

Onyx

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 7:59 am

Couldn't some of the more established writers change their style and create something new and interesting, i think it is the responsibility of every established author to be creative, otherwise what function do they perform, i read novels to be inspired and to experience a story and characters, if this feeling is not achieved what is the point?

Fezek · Post by **Fezek** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 8:06 am

Originally posted by Mr Sleep
Couldn't some of the more established writers change their style and create something new and interesting, i think it is the responsibility of every established author to be creative, otherwise what function do they perform, i read novels to be inspired and to experience a story and characters, if this feeling is not achieved what is the point?

Unfortunately it is the responsibility of the publisher to make profits. The publishing business lives on very tight profit margins.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 8:11 am

Originally posted by Fezek
Unfortunately it is the responsibility of the publisher to make profits. The publishing business lives on very tight profit margins.

So are you saying that publishers force the hand of writers to keep to the same genre and style?

Bloodstalker · Post by **Bloodstalker** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 9:57 am

@Onyx....I have read the first book of the Cleric Quintet, and am half way thriough the second. So far, I really like the series.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 10:04 am

Originally posted by Mr Sleep
It seems every fantasy novel i read and every fantasty movie that is produced leaves me slightly cold.

Is it just me or is there a lack of invention in this genre. Every outcome seems to be the same, there is some oppressive evil, a mismatch of heros go off to defeat this evil, then they come up against all manner of foes, possibly they pick up some other members along the way, then they defeat that evil.

This pretty much sums up most of the fantasy novels i have read. Does anyone have any reccommendaitons for any more inventive fantasy novels, or am i better plumbing the depths of the fantasy genre?

I think the problem was linked to Gary Gygax's discovery that AD&D (which he basically turned into a big business) could be streamlined like car manufacturing. If you read the fantasy that appeared before AD&D caught on, it was sometimes great, sometimes terrible, but often original and interesting, with a diversity of concepts being explored in depth. Post-Gygax, any thirdrate writer with aspirations to publishing a novel could do so, if they agreed to follow Gygax's characters, world, and plotline: cheap work and cheap pay, but a name on a cover. The results have an assemblyline feel, and they've taken over the bookstands since then. Even many of the better authors were brought up on this stuff, and frequently produce what amounts to highgrade factoryline AD&D novels.

For some immersive original stuff, I'd recommend first off (as I usually do

) Fletcher Pratt's The Well of the Unicorn. Pratt was a firstrate historian, both an expert in his time on the American Civil War and medieval Scandanavia. It's the latter that forms the setting for WotU, and Pratt revels in it. His dialog is particularly flavorful, and his cross-section of characters from all strata of his magical, pseudo-Danish society. The plotline is not apparent: events are simply overtaking a very ordinary man, giving him a destiny; but there are no demons to kill, just a call of rebellion to heed.

For humor, I suggest The Incomplete Enchanter, and Land of Unreason, both by Pratt and de Camp. The second is a wonderfully entertaining exercise in madness, as a shellshocked minor American diplomat on leave during WWII awakens to find himself in the kingdom of Oberon and Titania--with stranger things on the horizon. Inciteful and very humorous. The Incomplete Enchanter series transferred several American researchers into alternate dimensions based on myth and literature, where (in several cases) magic works. I've read 5 out of the 6 mini-novels, missing only the Irish mythos one which was under copyright when I bought my copy twenty-five years ago.

I understand it's available, too. The first two are the best, set in Ragnarok and Spenser's Fairie Queene, but the fifth, set in the Kalevala, is also a delight, if a bit repetitive.

James Branch Cabell may be the most original fantasy author of the 20th century. His novels are erudite, witty, bawdy, wildly funny (at times), and written in a prose style that was deliberately patterned after late medieval French poetry and romances. I recommend Jurgen, as probably his best work, with the strongest plot, although The High Place is nearly as good. There is nothing standard about Cabell's plots or prose. In fact, he often tweaks the nose of popular fiction, folktales, and myths. There is no such thing as a "conventional ending" or a conventional anything in a Cabell novel.

If you want to try a sampling of Jurgen, it's up online, complete in one of its most elaborate editions (that of 1921) at http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/CABELL/title.htm

I can post more, if you'd like.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 10:23 am

Originally posted by Der-draigen
Frankly, I find that pretty much every novel I pick up and skim through, seems to be a rip-off of Tolkien. Maybe because he invented the genre, a kind of formula has been developed based on what he did? Like with romance novels, for instance. Did y'all know that the rules of formula for romance novels are so specific, there are certian words to describe a sunset, etc.? And if the author wants the novel published, they have to stick to the formula. Maybe the same thing is going on in the fantasy genre.

But there's a lot more to fantasy than just Tolkien, Forgotten Realms, and Dragonlance. From what I've seen, those 3 have a lot in common; but don't forget the other stuff.

I recommend the Chronicles of Narnia if you haven't read'em. They're an easy read, but good nonetheless. I just finished rereading the entire series, which took me about 3 weeks. I also recommend the Acorna books by Anne McCaffrey. They mix sci-fi with fantasy quite well. I also recommend Dark Legend by Christine Feehan. It's technically a Fantasy Romance novel, but it's not one of those PWPs(Plot, What Plot?). I'm almost done reading it and it is a very stimulating(in more ways than one) book.

I'd recommend more, but I have to leave for class 4 minutes ago.