Is the Fantasy Genre Stale? - No Spam

Onyx · Post by **Onyx** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 10:36 am

Originally posted by Bloodstalker
@Onyx....I have read the first book of the Cleric Quintet, and am half way thriough the second. So far, I really like the series.

Cheers

Onyx

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 10:51 am

Also, we can forget some of the non-traditional fantasy. A great exaple of that is Through the Looking Glass. That is one of the most unique, and inventive fantasy novels.

But anyway, instead of complaining whats wrong with fantasy, why not suggest some things (That would be really great for me, as I'm currently trying to get work published by TSR). To me, it just seems pointless to complain or comment on something, unless your willing to make suggestions, and changes. Otherwise, what are you really accomplishing?

Ned Flanders · Post by **Ned Flanders** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 11:14 am

If you want a little twist on the fantasy genre, try the dragonlance legends series. It's not your typical fantasy trilogy and it focuses on one of my favorite characters, Raistlin.

Another good fantasy novel although it does sway towards the epic quest is Eye of the Hunter by Dennis McKiernan.

But to answer the question, Is the fantasy genre stale, my answer is when hasn't it been. It does indeed have a certain criteria and within the world of publishing, if your work doesn't meet the elements, then it will probably remain a manuscript.

However, the fantasy genre isn't stale to the 13 year old who just blindly selected a copy of 'dragons of autumn twilight', a first for him/her at a bookstore. The first of probably many fantasy novels for this person.

So maybe, it's just we're getting old Sleep. I've been immersed in Sci-fi and fantasy for about 20 years now. There isn't much I see now that doesn't remind me of something else I've seen, played, or read in the past. There is a finite canvas upon which this genre can wander and maybe we've just covered most of it.

Now, when I pick up a fantasy book, I look most for character development. I can read the back cover and figure out a majority of the plot but what can the author do with these people within the pages I've never met. That, for me, is what makes a good fantasy novel now whereas in the past I couldn't wait to get the epic battle.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 11:45 am

But to answer the question, Is the fantasy genre stale, my answer is when hasn't it been.

Before Gygax's TSR monopolized the bookstands by paying cheap rates to unknown writers, and huge sums to retail chains to display his stuff. This happened in the 1980s. The stuff before then was highly variable, but it definitely wasn't stale, because there was no set formula that writers were expected to follow, and nobody was telling authors what plot to follow, what environment to use, what style to write in, etc.

McBane · Post by **McBane** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 11:47 am

Originally posted by Ned:

Now, when I pick up a fantasy book, I look most for character development. I can read the back cover and figure out a majority of the plot but what can the author do with these people within the pages I've never met. That, for me, is what makes a good fantasy novel now whereas in the past I couldn't wait to get the epic battle.

I agree. This is one reason why I like David Eddings. Sure, his plots are very predictable.....interaction with gods, a magic jewel, blah,blah,blah. But IMO he has great character development, and show good interaction. My favorite character is Sir Bevier, from the Sparhawk series.

I would like to see a book where evil is the victor, for once. Maybe written from the viewpoint of the evil side, say, the orc's story as they fight elves. Or a lich's rise to "greatness", sitting back waiting for adventures to come into its lair. If anyone knows of any of these types of books, please let me know.

Ned Flanders · Post by **Ned Flanders** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 11:57 am

by fable
Before Gygax's TSR monopolized the bookstands by paying cheap rates to unknown writers, and huge sums to retail chains to display his stuff. This happened in the 1980s. The stuff before then was highly variable, but it definitely wasn't stale, because there was no set formula that writers were expected to follow, and nobody was telling authors what plot to follow, what environment to use, what style to write in, etc.

I will concede this point. I am speaking from the perspective of that 13 year old who picked up dragons of autumn twilight back in 1983. That was me, and it seems the genre has never really changed. Aside from The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, Dragons was my first fantasy novel. I can't say I've read many fantasy novels that predate 1980. Maybe some Anne McAffrey. Your post about earlier novels before the genre was locked certainly does interest me and I guess my statement about fantasy always being stale is a little biased since I got into fantasy novels at the inception of the 'said formula'.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 12:00 pm

I would like to see a book where evil is the victor, for once. Maybe written from the viewpoint of the evil side, say, the orc's story as they fight elves. Or a lich's rise to "greatness", sitting back waiting for adventures to come into its lair. If anyone knows of any of these types of books, please let me know.

It's happened repeatedly, but damned if I can recall exact titles or authors to mind. The only one that I half-remember is a novel by one of the big sci-fi/fantasy pulp authors of the 1920s. It reads just like his usual stuff in first person, with a standard "hero out to destroy an alien race of fulltime werewolves," until just before the end, when he gets bitten, and becomes a werewolf himself with no possible reprieve. Oh well, he figures. At least I have these nifty teeth and claws, and it might be fun to kinda ravage and kill and join a successful, invading army, not to mention one sexy female werewolf who's been trying to get him to join their side for some time...

I'll try to recall his name--Murray Leinster, maybe?--but the book is really not that good, despite the attractive plot twist.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 12:27 pm

I have very little experience of the Fantasy genre, I don't like Tolkien and other stuff I've looked at made me even less interested because of the predictability and the lack of depth in the characters. Now, I'm sure better stuff exists, but this is what I would like to see if the genre is going to develop from a typical child/teenager genre where the reader has to be inexperineced to appreciate it (like Ned points out), into a genre that attracts more variated groups of readers:

1. The stereotypes: Racial and gender stereotypes are far too common, sometimes plots are even built upon assumption of preset stereotypes. This makes both plots and characters less interesting and more predicatable. Also, charcters that change and rebel against the stereotypes, frequently seem to just change into another stereotype, equally boring.
2. The good-evil dichotomy: This dichotomy must be explored deeper and/or be more nuanced. Such a dichotomous world becomes highly simplified. The very idea of "inherent" evil and good also makes people and groups of people act in predictable ways and character development is limited because good or evil "nature" is not supposed to change a lot due to situation and interaction with others.
3. Character development and exploration of motives: Why do people chose to act like they do, and how well is it explained to the reader? Again, the motives people have often falls back upon preset stereotypic patterns - we are supposed to understand that "this is the way a noble Elven warrior acts" and "this is the way an evil Lich acts". IMO, that's not an interesting explanation at all - more space for individual choices and drives is needed. Especially "evil" character seldom get their motives explained is such a way so that the readers feels they can empathise and understand that characters rationale.
4. Predictable plots: Just like the average Hollwood movie, you know the end after 5 minutes. The old paths and patterns need to be left and new ones explored. New worlds as well as new variations in existing worlds.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 12:29 pm

Pratt and Cabell. I'm more convinced than ever that you would like these two, assuming Cabell's very pronounced style doesn't rub the wrong way.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 1:29 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans
I have very little experience of the Fantasy genre, I don't like Tolkien and other stuff I've looked at made me even less interested because of the predictability and the lack of depth in the characters. Now, I'm sure better stuff exists, but this is what I would like to see if the genre is going to develop from a typical child/teenager genre where the reader has to be inexperineced to appreciate it (like Ned points out), into a genre that attracts more variated groups of readers:

1. The stereotypes: Racial and gender stereotypes are far too common, sometimes plots are even built upon assumption of preset stereotypes. This makes both plots and characters less interesting and more predicatable. Also, charcters that change and rebel against the stereotypes, frequently seem to just change into another stereotype, equally boring.
2. The good-evil dichotomy: This dichotomy must be explored deeper and/or be more nuanced. Such a dichotomous world becomes highly simplified. The very idea of "inherent" evil and good also makes people and groups of people act in predictable ways and character development is limited because good or evil "nature" is not supposed to change a lot due to situation and interaction with others.
3. Character development and exploration of motives: Why do people chose to act like they do, and how well is it explained to the reader? Again, the motives people have often falls back upon preset stereotypic patterns - we are supposed to understand that "this is the way a noble Elven warrior acts" and "this is the way an evil Lich acts". IMO, that's not an interesting explanation at all - more space for individual choices and drives is needed. Especially "evil" character seldom get their motives explained is such a way so that the readers feels they can empathise and understand that characters rationale.
4. Predictable plots: Just like the average Hollwood movie, you know the end after 5 minutes. The old paths and patterns need to be left and new ones explored. New worlds as well as new variations in existing worlds.

You make a lot fo references to Sterotypes stories, anc characters. Now, I do agree, but my question is, how would one break free of those sterotypes? In essence, the second you deny one sterotype, they are just becoming another. The way I see it now, it's one big loop.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 2:36 pm

Originally posted by Aegis
You make a lot fo references to Sterotypes stories, anc characters. Now, I do agree, but my question is, how would one break free of those sterotypes? In essence, the second you deny one sterotype, they are just becoming another. The way I see it now, it's one big loop.

You break the stereotypes in several ways:

1) You create in depth characterizations that "build out of " the stereotypes. Fritz Leiber's magnificent duo, Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, would seem to be the stereotype of the blonde northern barbarian, and the dark thief--but when you dig into 'em, you find out so many details that the stereotype vanishes: for example, the Grey Mouser's arrogance conceals a chronic lack of self-esteem, fueled by the death by torture of his mage tutor, and Mouser's own single success at magic--killing all those responsible who were, in turn, subsequently torturing him.

2) You satirize. There are many different ways to individualize this, by no means all being Terry Pratchett's hamfisted approach.

3) You create situations that force your characters to act out of their formulaic responses. What if that thief of mine were suddenly made ruler of a province? What about simply lifting a canny merchant, and making him, personality and all, into a necromantic mage? How would a barbarian act if she were given ten years training in a school for diplomacy?

4) You study history in depth, to avoid creating a world populated by the cardboard environments and characters of much of the worst fiction out there. I don't want to give the impression that it's all bad--sometimes I *do* sound a little too much like the old toothless veteran sitting by the fireside, saying, "In my day, they wrote epics using quill pens steeped in bull's blood, and we were all the better for it, dagnabit!"

But much of what's around is bad, because they are deliberately following restrictions laid down by TSR-style publishing companies about content. Good writers don't have to learn from this stuff, forming imitations of imitations. They can read real history, and fashion goods that really come alive.

That will do for starters.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 3:15 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans
I have very little experience of the Fantasy genre, I don't like Tolkien and other stuff I've looked at made me even less interested because of the predictability and the lack of depth in the characters. Now, I'm sure better stuff exists, but this is what I would like to see if the genre is going to develop from a typical child/teenager genre where the reader has to be inexperineced to appreciate it (like Ned points out), into a genre that attracts more variated groups of readers:

1. The stereotypes: Racial and gender stereotypes are far too common, sometimes plots are even built upon assumption of preset stereotypes. This makes both plots and characters less interesting and more predicatable. Also, charcters that change and rebel against the stereotypes, frequently seem to just change into another stereotype, equally boring.
2. The good-evil dichotomy: This dichotomy must be explored deeper and/or be more nuanced. Such a dichotomous world becomes highly simplified. The very idea of "inherent" evil and good also makes people and groups of people act in predictable ways and character development is limited because good or evil "nature" is not supposed to change a lot due to situation and interaction with others.
3. Character development and exploration of motives: Why do people chose to act like they do, and how well is it explained to the reader? Again, the motives people have often falls back upon preset stereotypic patterns - we are supposed to understand that "this is the way a noble Elven warrior acts" and "this is the way an evil Lich acts". IMO, that's not an interesting explanation at all - more space for individual choices and drives is needed. Especially "evil" character seldom get their motives explained is such a way so that the readers feels they can empathise and understand that characters rationale.
4. Predictable plots: Just like the average Hollwood movie, you know the end after 5 minutes. The old paths and patterns need to be left and new ones explored. New worlds as well as new variations in existing worlds.

Dark Legend deals somewhat with stereotypes. The main character, Gabriel, is a Carpathian(vampire that hasn't turned undead) male who has been dormant for a couple centuries(and had been many centuries old when he went dormant). He fit the stereotype of the noble Carpathian male of the era he was from, but the other character in the story, the female, was a 20th/21st century girl who didn't like the domineering and protective ways of the Ancient Carpathian male. I'll try not to ruin the story for anyone who decides to read it, but through the book, they break out of the stereotypes they're in without going into other stereotypes. Also, Gabriel is hunting his twin brother who turned(became undead), yet Lucian(the twin brother) does not fit with what Gabriel knows to be the typical undead vampire. While I was able to predict one general thing about the ending long before I finished, I never knew how it would end until I finished reading the book. As for the good/evil stuff, all Carpathian males must fight against the evil within them(the desire for the power supposedly gained by becoming undead at the cost of losing their soul) as they go through life unable to see in color and without emotions in search of their lifemate, the other half of their soul. Finding her returns them the gift of seeing in color and feeling emotions. But because there are so few Carpathian females compared to the number of Carpathian males, many are unable to fight long enough and end up turning. There is an introspective battle agianst evil as well as the outside battle.

Another good fantasy series are the books Shadow Moon, Shadow Dawn, and Shadow Star, all by George Lucas and Chris Claremont. That trilogy is the sequal to the book/movie Willow. It is not the typical 'stale' fantasy. Another book that I think would be considered fantasy, but I'm not sure about, is The Girl With The Silver Eyes. I don't remember the author's name.

Another good book that may or may not be considered fantasy is The Oath by Frank Peretti(sp?).

Random Shadow could suggest quite a few good books(she says they're good and I trust her judgement). I'll see if I can get her to come by and post a few suggestions later.

Der-draigen · Post by **Der-draigen** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 3:49 pm

Originally posted by Tamerlane

I'd say yes. Just look at the music industry. So-called established bands and singers doing covers???

That has to be a sign.

Not unlike the theatre world. Constantly reviving old shows on Broadway....

humanflyz · Post by **humanflyz** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 5:25 pm

Look at the books that we call classics. For example, the Odyssey and the Aeneid, which both focus on one individual. Odysseus and Aeneas are typical stereotypes. They are out to destroy evil and come back to their place of ancestry victorious and live happily ever after. Look at Shakespeare's works, I personally do not think that the plots are good, in fact, it's very predictable as to what will happen. Maybe human beings just always act in the same mold.

A cliche doesn't have to be bad, it's just that people have seen it before too many times. The instant a classic comes out, the styles it uses automatically becomes a cliche. Do we then condemn the good book for bringing out thousands of cheap rip-offs? The question really boils down to this: Is the human imagination limitless? Personally I believe there is a limit, but when will we reach that limit, I do not know. But if what I believe is true, then maybe years later, every single book, no matter of what genre, will be a cliche that's full of stereotypes. What are we going to do then? Complaining is of no use.

Does it really matter whether a genre is stale or not? As long as I am enjoying books that are published under a cliche-infested genre, I don't care whether the genre is stale or not. However, if the staleness affect my personal enjoyment, I will do two things. One, to find other books to read, or to write my own book.

Random Shadow · Post by **Random Shadow** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 5:57 pm

*sneaks back into forum*

Well, Sailor Saturn asked me to drop by and suggest some books...so let's see what I can dig up.

*short pause* All right. First off, interesting battle vs. good and evil short sequence...five books...by Susan Cooper, The Dark is Rising. It's a very quick read, and all right, they're shelved in the children's section in my local library, but ALSO in the teen's...anyway, they're interesting books if you can handle some English/Welsh mythology type stuff...also, Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander. Very quick to read, but interesting all the same...The Black Cauldron and all that. I can only SUGGEST these things...

There's always Mercedes Lackey's Heralds of Valedmar series too; that one's a bit...well, I don't know, I like them fairly well. They're interesting, even though the magic's a bit...odd. Also, The Last Dragonlord and Dragon and Phoenix by Joanne Bertin are pretty interesting if you can get past the whole soulmate sidestory thing.

Well, those are just my suggestions, so I guess I'll be leaving now.

~Shadow

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 6:02 pm

Originally posted by Random Shadow
*sneaks back into forum*

Well, Sailor Saturn asked me to drop by and suggest some books...so let's see what I can dig up.

*short pause* All right. First off, interesting battle vs. good and evil short sequence...five books...by Susan Cooper, The Dark is Rising. It's a very quick read, and all right, they're shelved in the children's section in my local library, but ALSO in the teen's...anyway, they're interesting books if you can handle some English/Welsh mythology type stuff...also, Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander. Very quick to read, but interesting all the same...The Black Cauldron and all that. I can only SUGGEST these things...

There's always Mercedes Lackey's Heralds of Valedmar series too; that one's a bit...well, I don't know, I like them fairly well. They're interesting, even though the magic's a bit...odd. Also, The Last Dragonlord and Dragon and Phoenix by Joanne Bertin are pretty interesting if you can get past the whole soulmate sidestory thing.

Well, those are just my suggestions, so I guess I'll be leaving now.

~Shadow

Thanks for dropping by, Random Shadow. You should frequent SYM more often.

I had totally forgotten the Dragonlord books cause it's been a while since I read them. They are very good and the soulmate sidestory thing is an important part of the story. RS is just an anti-romantic.

Another good author, imo, is Laurence Yep. I can't remember any of the names of Yep's books, though.

Fezek · Post by **Fezek** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 6:21 pm

Originally posted by Mr Sleep

So are you saying that publishers force the hand of writers to keep to the same genre and style?

I wouldn't be surprised. more likely is that publishers look more favorably on a script which they think is going to make more cash.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 7:05 pm

Originally posted by humanflyz
Look at the books that we call classics. For example, the Odyssey and the Aeneid, which both focus on one individual. Odysseus and Aeneas are typical stereotypes. They are out to destroy evil and come back to their place of ancestry victorious and live happily ever after. Look at Shakespeare's works, I personally do not think that the plots are good, in fact, it's very predictable as to what will happen. Maybe human beings just always act in the same mold.

The reason for the predictablity in Shakespears work is because he uses a method called ht e"Tragic hero". Four basic reqs. for that. One, hero must be noble. Two, must have a tragic flaw. Three, the audience/reader must feel sympathey for heroes plight. and four, the hero must die. Sadly, this technique has been used since the time of shakespear, and thus lost all meaning of "good wirting" and has become cliche, in the purest sense. I personally can't stand that guy, and don't consider any of his work to be ground breaking, or revoloutionary, or even well written!

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 7:51 pm

Odysseus and Aeneas are typical stereotypes. They are out to destroy evil and come back to their place of ancestry victorious and live happily ever after.

@Humanflyz, Odysseus is not out to destroy evil. He was bound by triball reasons to support Menelaus, the head "king," who wanted his wife back and the guy who cuckolded him, Priam of Troy's son, Paris. Evil doesn't enter into it at all. "Good" gods were on both sides of the conflict.

Aeneas isn't out destroy anything, or come back to any place of ancestry. Another son of Priam, with Troy burning and the Greeks ransacking the place, he leads s small group to found a new colony where their children's destiny supposedly lies.

Note, I agree with your conclusion, though: that nearly all literary work, reduced to it essence, is cliched. It isn't the plot, so much as the treatment, the language, and/or the characterization, that sells the work.

nael · Post by **nael** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 7:58 am

i would like to start by saying that i love the analogy of publishing to the recording industry. on more than one occassion in this forum i have ranted about how record companies have ripped the soul out of music and suppress good singer/songwriters. that's why waylon jennings dying recently was sad to me. he was a great singer/songwriter. ok, i'll get on topic now...
breakign otu of the stereotypes so hard because of the public's preconceived notions. think about how much strife there was over the Lord of the rings movie, and everyone worried about if their visions would hold up. this stays in the general publics minds when reading a book. if the orcs were fair and wise, people would turn their noses up at it, realizing it was just an antithesis to the status quo.
i'm enjoying weis and hickman's new series of books. the first one is "well of darkness". i, like ned flanders, fell in love with fantasy after reading the dragon lance books. and when you see just how many books have been spawned out of weis and hickman's world, it gives great credit ot their ability to create a world and a history. they do it again with this series...to an extent. there is an OBVIOUS use of native american stereotypes in it, but for the most part it is a really fun read. and even though i know that by the end the good guys will win, evil is kicking ass right now.