What improvements would you like to see in any future game?

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:07 am

I'm wondering at this point how many of these issues will be addressed by the new Dungeon Siege, due out in May, and/or NWN, due out in September.

samcu · Post by **samcu** » Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:19 am

You should be glad to have this game. I had to feed my characters everyday twice in Ultima 7!

Anyway, I think AI is really bad in tracking, also if they allow you to better scripts, it will make the game easier to play.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:28 am

My new, improved, list of things to change:

More mystery to the main plot, like in BG1
Less linear plot
More wilderness areas to explore
Ability to initiate dialog with NPC's in your party, like in PS:T (Planescape: Torment)
Right-click menu, like that in PS:T
More NPC interaction
I like the one-step button idea, to switch selected party members from melee weapons to ranged weapons and vice versa.
More intelligent interface - so you can switch dual-wielders and shield-users to ranged weapons without going into inventory.

Locke Da'averan · Post by **Locke Da'averan** » Thu Mar 07, 2002 3:27 am

Originally posted by Sojourner

More mystery to the main plot, like in BG1

Less linear plot

More wilderness areas to explore

Ability to initiate dialog with NPC's in your party, like in PS:T (Planescape: Torment)

Right-click menu, like that in PS:T

More NPC interaction

I like the one-step button idea, to switch selected party members from melee weapons to ranged weapons and vice versa.

More intelligent interface - so you can switch dual-wielders and shield-users to ranged weapons without going into inventory.

If we'd get those improvements to the next bg stylish game it would be nightmare! people wouldn't leave their computers for weeks or months, there would be headlines: "game takes another one, how long does this have to continue before actions take place?"

if there's one two things i could choose as improvements it would be more wilderness areas and the ability to change from dual wield/shield wielding to a ranged weapon the same way you can change from a melee weapon to a sling

and of course: more comedy into the games! like the fella in the jovial juggler in BG1 "the barren full of monkeys" and minsc/jan talk...

Franke · Post by **Franke** » Thu Mar 07, 2002 3:47 am

WARNING! LONG POST!!

Ok here's a list of things that would be nice to improve:

1. AI. 3 examples:
A. Thieves.. when meeting hostile groups with thiefs, they always (I think) try to backstab the nearest person in my group, usually a fighter with lots of HP and a very low AC. Even if the thief manages to hit my fighter he's not even badly injured. It would be so much more logical for the invisible thief to find the mages in my party (who has less than half the HP and only decent AC) and backstab them, if they have stoneskin then backstab someone else, but not always the nearest person.

B. Mages.. a lot of enemy mages I've encountered always cast "Secret Word" on Aerie, what's up with that, she doesn't have any spell protections whatsoever (not that I know of anyways) and by the time it takes to cast "Secret word", most or all of his stoneskins have been wasted by my tanks and he is as good as dead.

C. Vampires.. they always attack the nearest person, this means that you can have one partymember who is negative plane protected who takes all the beating, and the rest of the party doing the killing wihout the risk of level drain. If I were a vampire and I attacked, let's say.. Jaheira wearing the Amulet of Power, I would at least noticed after my first hit that I wasn't getting any life force (or whatever they are draining) from her. Smart as I am I would most likely go to the next person in line and try my luck there. Of course this vampire-ai would be a real pain since I win all my vampire battles this way, but it isn't realistic. If a vampire has tried to dominate Jaheira and notices that she is imune to it, why try to dominate her again?

I know this is a huge issue and AI is very hard to create, but the way it is now you can almost predict how all the hostiles will react to your presence.

2. NPC's. Need more, lots more, I mean if I want a sorcerer in my party, I have to be one myself since there are NO sorcerer NPC's whatsoever around in BG2. I think that there should at least be a NPC available from all the classes, and maybe good/neutral/evil as well, but that's probably overkill. The way it is now you can't create an "all evil party" and include a thief since there are no evil thieves in BG2, which means you have to be one yourself. You shouldn't have to create a multiplayer game to have a Sorcerer and and a Monk in your party at the same time, should you?

Also the ability to talk to your NPC's would be nice, and if the NPC has any background whatsoever, family/friends/enemies then he/she should probably run in to some of them at some time during the game, leading to more personal quests.

3. Traps. When running through the game the second time I already knew exactly where 80% or so of the traps were, and I never sprung a trap, wich is kind of cheesy since the first time through I sprung a LOT of traps leaving my party in need of some SERIOUS healing a lot of times. Why not put a random thing here and let traps be on different chests/drawers/doors and such every time you enter an unexplored area? This should give a little more challenge and your thief should be a little more busy detecting traps instead of hiding in shadows all the time.
Also, your own traps, how can you set a trap a couple of feet from a non-hostile creature/person, then after a dialouge he/she it turns hostile and immediately the traps strike at him. I mean... didn't he see the thief setting the traps, or is the traps alive or something, attacking as soon as there is a hostile near? In my opinion the creature/person saw the traps being set, and could therefor avoid them just as well as my own party, no? Exactly the same with hide in shadows.

4. Going from Twohanded to Two-weapon-style should be just as simple as going from Twohanded to Single Weapon Style or anything else. If a NPC is using a bow and hostiles are getting too close, he put's his bow on his back (or something) and takes out a Halberd, isn't it just as easy to take out 2 longswords?

5. Backpack.. I'm still trying to figure out how small things like girdles and boots take up the same amount of space as a full plate armour or a full grown man.

How come Aerie can't use some armour because of her lack of strength, when she can have a pair of them in her backpack walking around, not even breaking a sweat?

[ToB] The potion case, it's nothing magical about it is there? It weighs the same regardless of how many potions you have in it.

6. Food! I think the party should have to have food in their backpacks, nothing advanced, just 1 person in your party having 1 or 2 backpack slot occupied by food. Can be bought at the nearest tavern/shop or something, or why not let Minsc (and boo) hunt a deer/moose or something if you're near starvation.

7. Sleep. Some travels take a lot of time, I think 48h is my record going from one area to another. This leaves my party "kinda" tired when we arrive. Don't they sleep when they travel? Do they walk 24h/day nonstop when they move between areas? If the length of travel is more than lets say 18h you should at least have to sleep one time, or at least rest a couple of hours.

8. Ramdom positions. Some Hostiles have to be bound to a specific area, like Kangaxx, Firkraag and such, but far from all. Why not let your party meet hostiles at different places, like the hostile party in the North Forest, they don't have to be at the exact same spot every time, why not in the lower right corner, or even better, in another area? This would prevent ppl from preparing before battles they knew would come (cheese) and would also make the game a little more exciting for ppl who has beat the game a lot of times, no?

9. Pickpocket/Steal. This is horrible, if you suceed you save and try again, if you fail you load and try again, there should be, like fable said, a fine or something instead of the shopkeeper going hostile, the reputation decrease and fins should stick though even when you reload.

10. Pathfinding. As mabrook said, the NPC's aren't that smart, even in open areas they bump in to eachother when moving around, for example if Aerie is chased by a couple of shadows and Minsc is coming to her aid, they will bump into eachother, stand there trying to figure out what happened, and when they finally understand what has happened the Shadows will be all over Aerie. When walking in dungeons and narrow places the pathfinding is a real pain, the only way to keep things organized is to bring the hostiles to you, not you to them.

11. Backstabbing with anything but piercing weapons should be impossible as Leonardo said, there is no way you can "stab" with a staff.

12. Like most ppl here I like to see more wilderness areas, places where you don't have to go but there might be a random spawned hostile party or something waiting for you, not to mention all the random traps that will keep your thief busy.

Despite all of the things above (and some things that I can't remember now) BG2 is _THE_ best game I've ever played and I've spent countless of hours playing it. Still going strong by the way, this time with a Fighter(9)/Thief(around 15 now). If it weren't for this game I would probably have graduated and have an excellent job by now,

but I'd rather watch Minsc dualwield Crom Faeyr/Flail of Ages, Mazzy kicking butt with Tansheron's Bow and Aerie just being cute... well ok she can cast spells as well but she's always been my romance, how any1 could not romance her I have no idea.

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Thu Mar 07, 2002 4:00 am

@ Franke: so many good and interesting points and then you go and wreck it all with your last sentence

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Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Thu Mar 07, 2002 4:11 am

Originally posted by Franke
11. Backstabbing with anything but piercing weapons should be impossible as Leonardo said, there is no way you can "stab" with a staff.

I disagree with this one. I regard "backstabbing" as a sneak-attack, which certainly should do more damage, whether or not you use a piercing weapon. However, I do agree that staves should be unsuitable for backstabbing, along with the rest of the two-handers in the game.

Beldin · Post by **Beldin** » Thu Mar 07, 2002 4:29 am

Originally posted by Franke
10. Pathfinding. As mabrook said, the NPC's aren't that smart, even in open areas they bump in to eachother when moving around, for example if Aerie is chased by a couple of shadows and Minsc is coming to her aid, they will bump into eachother, stand there trying to figure out what happened, and when they finally understand what has happened the Shadows will be all over Aerie. When walking in dungeons and narrow places the pathfinding is a real pain, the only way to keep things organized is to bring the hostiles to you, not you to them.

Personally I think I can live with all the other perceived shortcomings of BG2/TOB, but THIS ONE really makes me switch to Mechwarrior4 for some time - just to make things go *SPLAT* and get rid of my pent-up agression because of of "my" NPC's getting in the way...

Still - NO WORRIES , everything will work out in the end...

Beldin

Leonardo · Post by **Leonardo** » Thu Mar 07, 2002 9:40 am

One thing I tought just now after discussing "How Minsc is a Ranger with only 6 Wisdom" on other thread, and then one of the replies said that he could have taken a hard blow to the head. So:

- Ressurected NPCs must make a system shock roll or else lose some stat points

Also, may think of...
- chance of weapon breaking (if you try to use a +1 sword on a monster that requires +2 or better, it may break)

Must consider that this encourage a lot more re-loading (Bondari, anyone?). Minsc dies? Why ressurect and risk losing points if I can try to avoid his death?

Phantom Lord · Post by **Phantom Lord** » Thu Mar 07, 2002 11:59 am

I'd like to see some random elements for people who play repeatedly. Such would include random monsters, random traps. Don't get me wrong, I don't want BG to become Diablo but it's a little boring to know every trap and every enemy.

If 2nd edition rules are used I'd also love to see the distributed ability scores from Skills and Powers (strength = muscle & stamina etc).

bob333 · Post by **bob333** » Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:04 pm

Just a few thoughts... It was mentioned that enemy AI should be markedly improved. but that it couldnt yet be done ...too difficult. The truth is that it can be programmed without too much difficulty. on many games but developers choose not to do so simply because you will never beat the enemy ! or at least without a great deal of effort.enemy ai can now be programmed to act almost like a human . but theres no fun if you cant beat the game ! imagine kangaxx , upon noticing that you have equipped one of your party with protection from magic , running around in circles until magic protection wears off.
I think giving better script options for your npcs would remove some of the headache involved in controlling their every action in for eg battle sequences.
Plus I prefer linearity as opposed to the non-linear route simply because theres a good chance you will end up stuck somewhere without knowing where to go or what to do. Cue big time frustration ! However non-linearity in pursuits of ones quest would be welcome.

Aubreii · Post by **Aubreii** » Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:50 pm

Two things that I would have loved in BG2 (although I know many people disagree)

1) I would like more NPCs to choose from (many more).
2) I would love it if I could have a party of 8 members (difficulty of encounters would prolly need to be tweaked to compensate for the more powerful parties).

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Thu Mar 07, 2002 2:00 pm

ahh, Improvments to the crpg genre... I could rant for a very long time about this, But since people already covered things like more npc interaction and better plots I will only bore you with one additional thing.

That thing is combat. To start with the amount of combat should be reduced and only used in a dramatically correct way. In addition all combat should be dangerous, no matter if your a fighter lvl 1823513 if a sneaky goblin but a dagger in your back you should still go down. Healing should be more complicated then restiing 8 hours or use a utterly boring potion of healing. And injuries should have serious effect on your skills. Being outnumbered should also be more dangerous.

This does requrie developers to get rid of the whole boring D&D system and any other systems that utilize variable hit points, instant healing spells etc, but I think it would also make the gaming much more intressting.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Mar 07, 2002 2:06 pm

Originally posted by samcu
You should be glad to have this game. I had to feed my characters everyday twice in Ultima 7!

Oh ho! And another U7 fan heard from. I hear ya.

I also recall those stupid sliders used in paying for anything. Garriott used to wax lyrical over 'em, because he'd just discovered the things. Only problem was, it was infinitely harder to get an exact amount when you wanted to buy anything than inputting two or three numbers on a keyboard. But he really was a dictator when he got focused on something.

That said, the U7 engine/implementation was a breakthrough for CRPGs, IMO; and the truth of this lies in the fact that Bioware strove for an improvement on the very same kind of thing when they did BG1.

samcu · Post by **samcu** » Thu Mar 07, 2002 11:43 pm

I started playing Ultima 4 when I was 12 to Ultime 8 when 20.

The rpg game fascinates me and the improvements is just too much, sometimes I had to go back to Ultima 5 to see if I still got what it takes. The shadowlords kick butt over Melissan and Irenicus.

You also get to appreciate the changes in the computer world since then.

mabrook · Post by **mabrook** » Fri Mar 08, 2002 1:46 am

backstabbing

I agree that backstabbing should be possible only with certain weapons. But you can cosider it as a blow with lets say a sword that has been prepared for some time in order to hit a more vulnerable part of the enemy.
Example: Thief Baldur

wants to fight a knight in full plate (kalah), equiped with a helmet and gauntlets and whatever else. In man to man combat he's just busy not getting hit by Baldur's 2handed killemall longsword, so he cant concentrate on hitting this foe badly.
He realizes his only chance is to hide in shadows (so Kalah would probably cast his detect invisible, but lets say he hasnt one

) and figure out the weak point of his surprised enemy. Then he finds that Kalahs right boot doesnt fight tightly to his armor and strikes him there (even possible with a staff). This causes such terrrible ache in Kalahs leg, that he is unable to walk or fight anymore.
Baldur is the happy winner and lives happily ever after.
You got the point?

Mabrook

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Fri Mar 08, 2002 1:50 am

Re: backstabbing

Originally posted by mabrook
I agree that backstabbing should be possible only with certain weapons. But you can cosider it as a blow with lets say a sword that has been prepared for some time in order to hit a more vulnerable part of the enemy.
Example: Thief Baldur wants to fight a knight in full plate (kalah), equiped with a helmet and gauntlets and whatever else. In man to man combat he's just busy not getting hit by Baldur's 2handed killemall longsword, so he cant concentrate on hitting this foe badly.
He realizes his only chance is to hide in shadows (so Kalah would probably cast his detect invisible, but lets say he hasnt one ) and figure out the weak point of his surprised enemy. Then he finds that Kalahs right boot doesnt fight tightly to his armor and strikes him there (even possible with a staff). This causes such terrrible ache in Kalahs leg, that he is unable to walk or fight anymore.
Baldur is the happy winner and lives happily ever after.
You got the point?

Mabrook

This kind of thing is actually implemented in IWD: HoW as Crippling Strike.

mabrook · Post by **mabrook** » Fri Mar 08, 2002 1:55 am

dammit
I just thought I invented a real new thing to that game ...
Well no, I'm also in playing PnP RPG so I took this idea from another game since I'm not in the DnD rules so far.

@fable:
mind the topic, we're NOT talking about old Ultima games (although they might be good)

Great I can remind a moderator of the forum rules, ever liked to do this once

Don't take any offence

Mabrook

mabrook · Post by **mabrook** » Fri Mar 08, 2002 2:04 am

one more thing about AI

What I really found annoying:
Small corridors!
Okay, its hard to keep a party together there in real life too (probably). But I dont think it necessary that your members try to go another route trough the whole area just to find that this way they cant get past your main char too. Okay, the bring some enemies along you can slaughter when they come back , but that doesnt really reward you for waiting that long.
Same with doors: I think I never managed to get them all trough a door without at least one trying to go another way. Why cant they just wait until the others before them have passed the door and then take a chance for themselves. *grrrr*
Also the problem with the different rooms: Great, you have a formation, but why do they keep it under all circumstances??
If there is a wall seperating two rooms this can cause MUCH trouble. First three members are in one room and other 3 behind the wall in a nother one. Well, okay, great, they kept their formation anyway.
This at least would be easy to fix (all characters in the same area as main char for example...)

Well, I just had to say this (cause I dont have Mechwarrior 4 to get rid of my anger!)

Mabrook

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Fri Mar 08, 2002 2:15 am

Re: one more thing about AI

Originally posted by mabrook

But I dont think it necessary that your members try to go another route trough the whole area just to find that this way they cant get past your main char too. Okay, the bring some enemies along you can slaughter when they come back , but that doesnt really reward you for waiting that long.
Same with doors: I think I never managed to get them all trough a door without at least one trying to go another way. Why cant they just wait until the others before them have passed the door and then take a chance for themselves. *grrrr*

true,true... but have you played BG1? IMHO that side of things has been improved so much for BG2; in the original game various characters would stand utterly immobile while another character tried to edge past. It took micro-management to new levels of annoyance (maybe I just didn't have the patience) and is the main reason why I've never gone back to BG1. Which is a shame because I just loved the plot...

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