marriage vs. partnership

[Yshania]

Originally posted by Beldin

According to your posted research I am:

1: Emotionally short-circuited.
2: Sexually unhappy.
3: Haveing bad sex.
4: Emotionally diseased.
5: Physically sick.
6: I have no cultural energy, creativity, intellectual development and individualism, and a slower general cultural ascent
7: Not free.
8: A sinner.

Hmmmm...I qualify for this dubious honour too, yet I see nothing of myself in this list. My opinion? A sad generalisation.

[Fezek]

Originally posted by Beldin


Great post Eminem. We could (and probably WILL) argue about that one for a long time - but since I'm in a hurry right NOW I'll keep it short. (Please don't be offended !)

According to your posted research I am:

1: Emotionally short-circuited.
2: Sexually unhappy.
3: Haveing bad sex.
4: Emotionally diseased.
5: Physically sick.
6: I have no cultural energy, creativity, intellectual development and individualism, and a slower general cultural ascent
7: Not free.
8: A sinner.


Even if you might be right in the last one (If i was a believer, I could be counted as sinner.) I can not see myself in that list.

Time for discussion will come, no worries.

Beldin

Wow! I fall into the same categories, although not the ones specifically aimed at lasses.

[frogus]

Indulging in sexual intercourse prematurely short-circuits the emotional bonding process. In a study of 100,000 women, a correlation was found between early sexual experience and dissatisfaction in marriages, unhappiness with the level of sexual intimacy, and a prevalence of low self-esteem

This has nothing to do with marriage. people can have sex young if they're married (legal at 16 in UK), and can (and possibly should) abstain from sex if they are not married. Anyway if young sex is the issue, then lets discuss the Age of Consent and not marriage.

Sexual intercourse and extensive physical exploration early in a relationship do not reflect sex at its best.

So even married people should wait until they ahve sex? Again, abstainaence doesn't depend on marriage. This too is an issue for legislation, not marriage.

Sex is an art that is learned best in the safe environment of marriage. When unrestrained physical intimacy dominates a relationship, other parts of that relationship suffer. In healthy marriages, sex takes its natural place beside the intellectual, emotional and practical aspects of life. Married couples spend less time in bed than they do in conversation, in problem solving, and in emotional communion.

A strong loving relationship is just as safe an environment as a marriage. Marriage is a symbol of the love, respect etc that a couple feel for one another, it does not provide it. The fact that this particular married couple talk and commune and solve problems (etc and all those other good things) is because they love and respect each other, not because theya are married. Love & Respect are the causes, marriage and a healthy relationship are the two results. marriage is not the cause of a healthy relationship.

Those who settle for short-term sexual relationships are settling for second-best sex.

people are capable of not indulging in casual sex even if they are not married. People are also capable of indulging in casulal throwaway sex (albeit only with one person) even when they are married.

Premature sex is bad for your emotional health.

See above. One can have premature marital sex easily and one can have mature premarital sex easily.

Premarital sex is also bad for your physical health.

I think here you mean premature, not premarital. See above.

Sexual promiscuity is even bad for the health of our civilization. One study of more than eighty societies ranging in development from ancient to primitive to more modern revealed an unvarying correlation between the degree of sexual restraints and the rate of social progress. Cultures that were more sexually permissive displayed less cultural energy, creativity, intellectual development and individualism, and a slower general cultural ascent .

This is true, but cultures using slavery have always had more cultural energy, creativity, intellectual development and individualism aswell. Romans? Greeks? Egyptians? I realise that this is not an incredibly strong point, but I am also a little skeptical of this 'one study', and again, it is perfectly possible for somebody to not be married but still not be promiscuous.

Premarital sex is hardly an expression of freedom. Young people who become sexually active in response to peer pressure to be sophisticated and independent are actually becoming victims of current public opinion. No one is really free who engages in any activity in order to impress the majority.

Noone is free who engages in an activity because their priest says so. People who are free do what they want, and can get married if they want and not if they don't.

God's word makes it clear that intercourse outside of marriage is not only outside our best interests, but it is also wrong.

I really don't want to argue about god again, but can we just miss this point out, because I (and most people in here i think) do not believe that there even is a god, much less that his word is absolutely true and he knows what's good and bad.

umm...yeah I think that's about it.

[frogus]

also, what if we replace the word 'pre-marital' with 'un-married'?

[Beldin]

Originally posted by EMINEM

Let me clarify.
1. You're more likely to be emotionally short-circuited if you're promiscuous than if you choose to abstain from sex until marraige.
2. You would probably have a happier sex life if you wait a while longer.
3. Ditto
4. Same as 1. You are "more likely to be..." yadda, yadda, yadda.
5. The potential to become physically sick (or physically dead) from venereal disease is greater if you have pre-marital sex. Meanwhile, abstinance guarantees 100% immunity and +10 saving throws to boot. Are you really going to deny this?
6. You're becoming a regular poster at SYM. Need I say more?
7. Re-read the last statement.
8. Look at it this way: we're all in the same boat. "... For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
No worries, EMINEM.

1. Let me clarify: If I waited (male and female equally) for my marriage to have sex I couldn't compare my spouse with another person - so I WOULD be more likely to stay with him because I wouldn't know what I'm missing. Therefore this research proves MY point rather than yours. Sleeping around a bit gives you something to think about when your partner has no idea of "good" (however you define it) sex.


2.Quote:"Sexual intercourse and extensive physical exploration early in a relationship do not reflect sex at its best. " - Correct so far- sex gets better with time - but who says I have to gain experience while married ? Living together fulfills the same requirements.

3. I'm 31 now - and still not married - how long do these researchers think I SHOULD wait ?

4. see 1. AND -> Ever heard of good ole "gainin experience" ? My wife would be VERY bored indeed if I knew only the things about her body that are being taught at school these days.

5. That's beside the point. If you have unprotected intercourse you can catch any sexually communable disease (sp ?) . This can happen if you're married or not. It's always possible. No difference between pre- martial and post-martial sex.

6. and 7. "touche" I might say, but it doesn't prove your researchers.

8. Please - don't get "lawful good" on me. I ALWAYS fail to safe against throwing up . (-14 on saves vs. religion ) . The god (or gods) and I have reached an agreement - I keep out of their business, they stay out of mine. - The possibility that deitys exist doesn't keep ME from doing as I please. If the gods wanted worshippers, they wouldn't have given us free will.

No worries, I like this thread...

Beldin

[fable]

8. (BTW, outside a Biblical worldview absent of faith and trust in God, I think this last point will be difficult to understand) Scripture is clear that sexual intercourse outside the bonds of marriage is sin. Even if we had no other evidence, God's word makes it clear that intercourse outside of marriage is not only outside our best interests, but it is also wrong.

Can you post biblical quotes that specifically endorse marriage?

[Beldin]

Originally posted by EMINEM

2. Sexual intercourse and extensive physical exploration early in a relationship do not reflect sex at its best. .

8. Premarital abstinence and marital faithfulness is not a denial of an individual’s rights or pleasures. It is rather choosing to experience sex in the healthiest, happiest context.

'xcuse me if I seem stubborn.

But if the so called "free sex" ist THAT BAD - how do you explain all those "swingers" out there. Just look anywhere in the internet or in the "real" world - SEX GALORE ! - so it can't be THAT bad, couldn't it ?

No worries.

Beldin

[Astafas]

Originally posted by EMINEM


I think the question "What is exactly riight with pre-marital sex?" needs to be answered adequately first, since it seems to be the majority opinion. In the meantime, allow me to put in my two cents worth into this disccussion. Well, not “my” two cents, but rather what other researchers have found regarding this topic. In summary, then:

1. Contrary to popular notions, premarital sexual intercourse may actually “hinder” intimacy. Indulging in sexual intercourse prematurely short-circuits the emotional bonding process. In a study of 100,000 women, a correlation was found between early sexual experience and dissatisfaction in marriages, unhappiness with the level of sexual intimacy, and a prevalence of low self-esteem

2. Sexual intercourse and extensive physical exploration early in a relationship do not reflect sex at its best. Of course there is sensual pleasure for those who engage in premarital sexual experiences, but they are missing out on the best route to marital happiness. Sex is an art that is learned best in the safe environment of marriage. When unrestrained physical intimacy dominates a relationship, other parts of that relationship suffer. In healthy marriages, sex takes its natural place beside the intellectual, emotional and practical aspects of life. Married couples spend less time in bed than they do in conversation, in problem solving, and in emotional communion. The lie that premarital sex prepares you for marriage denies the fact that sexual happiness grows only through years of intimate relationship. The height of sexual pleasure, psychologists tell us, usually comes after ten to twenty years of marriage.

3. Those who settle for short-term sexual relationships are settling for second-best sex. Journalist George Leonard observed that "casual recreational sex is hardly a feast-not even a good hearty sandwich. It is a diet of fast food served in plastic containers. Life's feast is available only to those who are willing and able to engage life on a deeply personal level, giving all, holding back nothing.” For a woman, particularly, sex can reveal hidden fears and lack of trust. Good sex-which can be a healing agent over time-requires trust, trust which grows best in the context of the life-long commitment of marriage.

4. Premature sex is bad for your emotional health. The February 1991 issue of the journal Pediatrics reported that researchers at Indiana University found that sexually active teenagers are more likely to be prone to alcohol abuse and illegal drugs, and are more likely to have trouble in school. They reported that sexually active girls were more likely to be depressed, have low self esteem, feel lonely or attempt suicide. Premarital sex may be bad for the emotional health of your future marriage. It lays the groundwork for comparisons, suspicions, and mistrust. "Am I as attractive (or as sexually stimulating) as his last partner?" "If she didn't wait for me before we were married, why do I think she will settle for only me now?" "If someone better comes along, will I be left in the dust?"

5. Premarital sex is also bad for your physical health. Sexually transmitted diseases have received abundant attention from the press in recent years. Equal time has not been given to the opinion held by many medical experts that extra-marital abstinence is without a doubt the best way to avoid these diseases.

6. Sexual promiscuity is even bad for the health of our civilization. One study of more than eighty societies ranging in development from ancient to primitive to more modern revealed an unvarying correlation between the degree of sexual restraints and the rate of social progress. Cultures that were more sexually permissive displayed less cultural energy, creativity, intellectual development and individualism, and a slower general cultural ascent . Why, then, do we-as individuals and as a society-trade our energy, creativity, and intellectual development for momentary sexual pleasure? Because we have believed a lie.

7. Premarital sex is hardly an expression of freedom. Young people who become sexually active in response to peer pressure to be sophisticated and independent are actually becoming victims of current public opinion. No one is really free who engages in any activity in order to impress the majority.

8. (BTW, outside a Biblical worldview absent of faith and trust in God, I think this last point will be difficult to understand) Scripture is clear that sexual intercourse outside the bonds of marriage is sin. Even if we had no other evidence, God's word makes it clear that intercourse outside of marriage is not only outside our best interests, but it is also wrong. God gave these rules NOT because he is a spoil-sport. Quite the contrary. Because God created us and because he loves us more than we can ever know, he has told us how to have the best, most satisfying sexual experiences: in marriage. Premarital abstinence and marital faithfulness is not a denial of an individual’s rights or pleasures. It is rather choosing to experience sex in the healthiest, happiest context.

I can't see why your question has to be answered first. Logically, there could be rights and wrongs, or advantages and disadvantages, both in premarital and in marital sex.

A few comments regarding the supposed research:

1) Premarital means "before marriage". Therefor, you could very well be of the age of 30 and still have premarital sex. Marital means "in marriage". Therefor, depending on national legislation and various religious beliefs, you can be relatively young and still have marital sex. You say a correlation was found between early sexual experience and dissatisfaction in marriages, unhappiness with the level of sexual intimacy, and a prevalence of low self-esteem. Don't you think the problem rather lies in bad sexual experience, regardless of the moment in life? Early sexual experience implies sexual experience. All experience is either good or bad (well, maybe one could argue for neutral experience...). So by having early sexual experience you necessarily expose yourself for the risk of bad sexual experience. But the same goes for having sexual experience at a later stage in life. Should we recommend everyone to stop having sex?

2) You say that sex is an art that is learned best in the safe environment of marriage. What makes a 20 year long marriage safer than a 20 year long partnership? You say that in healthy marriages, sex takes its natural place beside the intellectual, emotional and practical aspects of life and that married couples spend less time in bed than they do in conversation, in problem solving, and in emotional communion. Is this not also the case in healthy partnerships outside the bonds of marriage? You say that the "lie" that premarital sex prepares you for marriage denies the fact that sexual happiness grows only through years of intimate relationship and that the height of sexual pleasure, according to psychologists, usually comes after ten to twenty years of marriage. Do you really think you have to be married to have an intimate relationship? The difference in sexual pleasure has to depend on whether the fact that you're married turns you on or not. Since this is the personal preferences of the psychologists in question or the people partipating in their research, I find it hard to object.

3) This has to be the very personal opinion of the journalist and hardly the result of a research. I agree that, for myself at least, good sex requires trust. His suggestion as to where to find trust is once again a personal opinion, though.

4) You say that researchers found that sexually active teenagers are more likely to be prone to alcohol abuse and illegal drugs, and are more likely to have trouble in school. They reported that sexually active girls were more likely to be depressed, have low self esteem, feel lonely or attempt suicide. Could it possibly be that teenagers prone to alcohol abuse and illegal drugs and who have trouble in school are more likely to have sexual activity? Just like they are more likely to be depressed, have low self esteem, feel lonely and attempt suicide? Or should this research result be understood as that all these problems started because of sexual activity? No alcohol or illegal drugs were involved in the first sexual activity? These teenagers were all in good mental health, had a high self esteem, had lots of friends (and therefor never felt lonely), wouldn't ever dream of suicide and then, suddenly, they fell into the horrors of sexual activity after which everything in their life fell apart?

5) Use a condom.

6) You believe two persons in a partnership outside the bonds of marriage have sex with everyone who's willing? You believe no married person ever is unfaithful?

7) Marital sex isn't an expression of freedom either. Or do you think so?

8) As you said, this point is hard to understand for someone outside the Biblical worldview. Thus I will not comment the validity of the argument.

[Ned Flanders]

I have to side with the Astafas' and Beldins' of the world on this issue. Here is an anecdote that is in tune with the discussion.

A good friend of mine in college dated the same young woman for the duration of our education there. They never had sex despite all of our chiding and playful pressure. He said, "she is waiting", and I love her. I'm cool with that." Despite the pressure we jokingly issued, I have to say all of us were impressed with his decision but also in a 'glad it isn't me' sort of way.

Move on to graduation...they eventually marry and of course, she's ready to have sex but once they consummate the marriage in this aspect, she's ready to have sex with everyone, guys and girls alike. She explained to her husband, my friend, that one partner wasn't enough and felt they needed to expand their sexaul horizons. He wasn't in tune with that attitude and things ended up in divorce. How do our resident Freudian psychologists want to chew on this twisted tale.

[frogus]

Can you post biblical quotes that specifically endorse marriage?

I think Corinthians 7 covers it.

[fable]

Originally posted by frogus
I think Corinthians 7 covers it.

Let' see: The best thing to do is to be celebate, but if you can't do that, to avoid screwing around, get married. Yes, that's good, sensible, emotionally intuitive advice. Really touches upon the positive reasons for marriage, doesn't it? And written by a celebate bachelor, worse yet.

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by fable
8. (BTW, outside a Biblical worldview absent of faith and trust in God, I think this last point will be difficult to understand) Scripture is clear that sexual intercourse outside the bonds of marriage is sin. Even if we had no other evidence, God's word makes it clear that intercourse outside of marriage is not only outside our best interests, but it is also wrong.

Can you post biblical quotes that specifically endorse marriage?

"At last!" Adam exclaimed. "She is part of my own flesh and bone. She will be called 'woman,' because she was taken out of a man." This explains why a woman leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one. ~ Genesis 2:23-24 (Note: 'united into one.' Just like two metals being put together to make an alloy)

Now about the questions you asked in your letter. Yes, it is good to live a celibate life. But because there is so much sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman should have her own husband. ~ 1 Corinthians 7:1-2

I wish everyone could get along without marrying, just as I do. But we are not all the same. God gives some the gift of marriage, and to others he gives the gift of singleness. ~ 1 Corinthians 7:7

Now I say to those who aren't married and to widows--it's better to stay unmarried, just as I am. But if they can't control themselves, they should go ahead and marry. It's better to marry than to burn with lust. ~ 1 Corinthians 7:8

Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from what we believe; they will follow lying spirits and teaching that come from demons. These teachers are hypocrites and liars. They pretend to be religious, but their consciences are dead. They will say it is wrong to be married ~ 1 Timothy 4:1-3

Give honor to marriage and remain faithful to one another in marriage. God will surely judge people who are immoral and those who commit adultery. ~ Hebrews 13:4-5

As the Scriptures say, "A man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one. ~ Ephesians 5:31

So again I say, each man must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband. ~ Ephesians 5:33

"But God's plan was seen from the beginning of creation, for 'He made them male and female.' 'This is why a man leaves his father and is joined to his wife, and the two are united as one.'" ~ Mark 10:6-7

I'm sure I can find some more if you'd like me to.

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by frogus
I think Corinthians 7 covers it.

First of all, it's 1 Corinthians 7, as there are two letters to the Corinthians.

What you must remember is that most, if not all, of that chapter is Paul's suggestion and opinion based on what he has been taught by God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

This is only my suggestion. It's not meant to be an absolute rule. ~ 1 Corinthians 7:6

And I think I am giving you counsel from God's Spirit when I say this. ~ 1 Corinthians 7:40b

Paul was giving the best advice he could in answer to the questions presented him by the Corinthians. His advice is that if you cannot abstain from sex, then you should marry. Why should you marry if you can't abstain from sex? Because to have sex outside of marriage is immoral and a sin.

[fable]

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn
Paul was giving the best advice he could in answer to the questions presented him by the Corinthians. His advice is that if you cannot abstain from sex, then you should marry. Why should you marry if you can't abstain from sex? Because to have sex outside of marriage is immoral and a sin.

My problem with that advice, @Sailor Saturn, is that its basis is entirely negative: better to marry, than to burn. Paul has nothing positive to say about marriage, or about the joys of sexual relations. He is inexperienced--presumably in both; in any case, if I wanted to get expert advice on what I could expect out of a marriage, I doubt I'd go to a man whose first words on the subject are a suggestion to be celibate. Within the context of his times, his letters were valuable to those in the early Christian flock; but IMO this kind of advice is of little use, today. The pronuncement of the marriage vows requires some greater incentive than telling people "You have to do this to avoid being promiscuous."

None of this is meant as critical of your own views, or of Paul's, as regards his own personal conduct.

[EMINEM]

What did you expect? The Bible is a book about eternal salvation, not a "How to" book about successful marriage relationships. It explains didactically and by example of why marriage is better than singlehood, and lays out the basic principles of what will constitute a good marriage.

For a strong endorsement, however, you need look no further than the Song of Solomon, a sublime epithalamion (sp?) if I've ever read one (also one reason why I attempted to learn Hebrew at one point in my life).

For a more detailed exposition about what the Bible has to say about marriage, you can check out the following passages:

Gen 2:18-24 Marriage is God's idea

Gen 24:58-60 Commitment is essential to a successful marriage

Jeremiah 33:10-11 Marriage holds great times of joy

Malachi 2:14-15 Marriage creates the best environment for raising children (a bedrock teaching rejected by society today)

Matthew 5:32 Unfaithfulness breaks the bond of trust, the foundation of all relationships

Matthew 19:6 Marriage is permanent

Romans 7:2-3 Ideally, only death should dissolce marriage

Ephesians 5:21-33 Marriage is based on the principled practice of love, not on feelings.

Ephesians 5:23,32 Marriage is a symbol of Christ's love for the Church

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is good and honorable


There. Hope that helps.

[EMINEM]

Oops! 'Seems like Saturn beat me to it. Oh well, never mind.

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by fable


My problem with that advice, @Sailor Saturn, is that its basis is entirely negative: better to marry, than to burn. Paul has nothing positive to say about marriage, or about the joys of sexual relations. He is inexperienced--presumably in both; in any case, if I wanted to get expert advice on what I could expect out of a marriage, I doubt I'd go to a man whose first words on the subject are a suggestion to be celibate. Within the context of his times, his letters were valuable to those in the early Christian flock; but IMO this kind of advice is of little use, today. The pronuncement of the marriage vows requires some greater incentive than telling people "You have to do this to avoid being promiscuous."

None of this is meant as critical of your own views, or of Paul's, as regards his own personal conduct.

Actually, I am somewhat in agreement with you. Much of 1 Corinthians 7 is directed very specifically at Christians with sentences starting with phrases like "If a Christian man" or "If a Christian wife." If you look, though, I showed only 3 references from this chapter and showed more from other parts of the Bible, both New Testament and Old Testament.

The main thing in that chapter, though, that applies here is "God gives some the gift of marriage, and to others he gives the gift of singleness." Here he is speaking of the fact that marriage is best for some people while for others it is better to remain single. There is no option of living as if you're married without being married.

And don't you know that if a man joins himself to a [woman], he becomes one body with her? For the Scriptures say, "The two are united into one." ~ 1 Corinthians 6:16

Run away from sexual sin! No other sin so clearly affects the body as his one does. For sexual immorality is a sin against your own body. ~ 1 Corinthians 6:18

Okay, I have plenty more scriptues I can pull out and post, but I'm getting in trouble with my parents because supposed to be packing right now for our trip to Disney Land.

[Waverly]

Don't make Reverend Waverly pull out his bible. You people never like what he finds therein.

[fable]

Gen 24:58-60 Commitment is essential to a successful marriage[/b]

Huh? "So they called Rebekah and asked her, "Will you go with this man?" "I will go," she said. So they sent their sister Rebekah on her way, along with her nurse and Abraham's servant and his men. And they blessed Rebekah and said to her,
"Our sister, may you increase
to thousands upon thousands;
may your offspring possess
the gates of their enemies."

Bloody, and typically ancient Hebrew, but certainly not what you claimed, above--an example of the need for commitment in a successful marriage.

As for the other quotes, while I appreciate them,they don't refer to my desire for specific quotes showing a biblical endorsement of marriage.

The Bible is a book about eternal salvation, not a "How to" book about successful marriage relationships.

The bible is a book about a lot of things, not just eternal salvation; but this is beside the issue, in which I was hoping to find, in the bible some kind of positive endorsement for the institution of marriage and the married couple--after all, churches everywhere ring with praises for it and the family. But then, these probably derive directly from the attempts of the RCC to formalize personal relationships under Church control in the 13th century ACE.

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by Waverly
Don't make Reverend Waverly pull out his bible. You people never like what he finds therein.

You've enticed my interest, 'Reverend Waverly,' though that's probably a bad thing.