No more Mr. Niceguy

Moleman · Post by **Moleman** » Sat Mar 16, 2002 3:04 pm

I've been playing only with good parties so far, but now I'm thinking of starting a new game with pure evil character, and more or less with whole party aligned evil. But before I do that I'm asking your opinions about it. Is it harder/easier than playing the game as good? Do the storyline/quests differ much? Do you have to fight more (with law enforcement, for example?) and can you to trade with stores and merchants if your rep goes really low (=if you are really evil)?

@Phantom Lord, I'm counting on you in this one

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Sat Mar 16, 2002 3:11 pm

It's way harder.

If your rep get's too low mercants won't do business with you. I think law enforcecers (wizzards) will come after you if you enter the city if your rep is too low to. When they find you depends on how low your rep is.

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Sat Mar 16, 2002 3:13 pm

I'm sure User will have something interseting to say, but as for my opinion...Playing evil is only really fun if you wanna be powergaming, because the game just doesn't provide for those who want to roleplay evil characters. The story suffers and you never get to do any of the best subquests and dialogue if you play evil 'properly' from a roleplaying point of view.
In my opinion this is the one fault in BG2, but it will be rectified (apparently) in NwN.

Casius · Post by **Casius** » Sat Mar 16, 2002 5:13 pm

Reputation really isn't a big deal if you're a powergamer. Just donate to a temple.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Sat Mar 16, 2002 5:33 pm

frogus, you're right, I do have soemthing to say...i dont play evil, I am EVIL....

I usually pick good parties for holy smite immunity, and the odd evil char is ther for tactical advantage, not role playing. I choose evil in hell cause I get more str that way, I think blackrazor is a sissy sword...

i ususally pick neutral cause I sure aint good, I choose alignment and actions based on what will benefit me and party, thus, quite evil....

playing evil is way hard, tho...

if you want the good items or xp, you must play good...

my philosophy is play the good way, but occasionally pick a nasty way to end things,

like poison the druid grove, and so forth, but if an item is issue, pick good, for the loot.

walkthrus are invaluable...you can make an informed decision on abandoning a reward for fun...

Phantom Lord · Post by **Phantom Lord** » Sun Mar 17, 2002 3:33 am

Originally posted by Casius
Reputation really isn't a big deal if you're a powergamer. Just donate to a temple.

Evil parties don't donate.

Originally posted by Moleman
@Phantom Lord, I'm counting on you in this one

Well, here we go:

Playing an evil character ain't difficult, you just choose the evil (greedy, selfish, violent, ...) option whenever you can and remember your final goal: You are daddy's son and you want to become the lord of murder. Anything else and anybody else, besides your romance maybe, is just means to reach that goal. And if a "good" action leads toward that goal then remember your real objectives and simply wash away the bitter taste of goodness with a nice bloodbath in the next quest.

Low reputation doesn't matter a bit if your other party members are evil too, in fact it's rather difficult to keep it low, because evil motivation can lead to good results in the eyes of others and thereby to unwanted rep points. Btw, forget about the rep bonus when dealing with merchants, there is enough money in the game to buy anything with no matter what rep.

An evil party will usually have less than six members, to be precise you'll probably have a four member (PC, Korgan, Edwin, Viconia) party in SoA and maybe a five member party in ToB. If you choose to waste Anomen's career you may add one member, but hey, who wants Anomen in his party? The only thing that makes it worth getting Anomen is the fact that his turn undead actually destroys undead instead of controlling them. Btw, a small party is certainly not less powerful, because you reach higher levels faster. The most difficult thing of all is to get out of the first dungeon without healing IMHO.

Choose your PC carefully, I personally have a tendency towards multi classed thieves, eg the classic F/T or the very interesting C/T. There is neither an evil nor a competent thief NPC available in SoA and playing a thief is real fun. You run the risks and you're personally responsible for looting and assassinating. Besides that, with ToB installed, you'll get UAI (use all items) and can use all the goody goody items. Nevertheless I simply threw Carsomyr away the last time I played. It didn't match my taste for fashion and one cannot backstab with the stupid thing which made it a useless toy radiating the stench of goodness rather than a good weapon from my point of view. Paladins may need their stupid holy avengers, my char doesn't.

One more thing: If you're not 100% certain if you want to be evil you may start neutral and let the tests in hell in hell judge you by your actions.

If you come to the conclusion that you certainly want to be evil, don't forget to take the NPC you hate most down to hell with you. You will find a good use for him/her.

fugitive · Post by **fugitive** » Sun Mar 17, 2002 4:28 am

Originally posted by Casius
Reputation really isn't a big deal if you're a powergamer. Just donate to a temple.

yeah, i have 2 agree w/ phantom lord: if you are evil, you dont donate 2 temples.... that would b kinda weird n against the 'rules' of the pure evil characters....

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Sun Mar 17, 2002 4:29 am

........
Phantom, you scare me......

don't forget to take the NPC you hate most down to hell with you. You will find a good use for him/her.

You REALLY scare me........

Phantom Lord · Post by **Phantom Lord** » Sun Mar 17, 2002 5:04 am

Maybe my char scares you, I think that I as a person am not truly like that in real life.

But isn't it the idea of roleplaying to impersonate someone who's different from you? It took me some imagination to create and play that certain character (a real black hearted halfling F/T), but he really was fun after being through with LG, NG and true N. The dialogues with the Solar in ToB were hilarious!

groggz · Post by **groggz** » Sun Mar 17, 2002 5:08 am

ofcourse you should be evil

but not always becuse if youare always evil you can never help all the poor people everywhere....

Spoiler

If you are evil kill Drizzt the evil man...

Phantom Lord · Post by **Phantom Lord** » Sun Mar 17, 2002 5:13 am

Didn't kill him because I was too weak back then so I chose to use him for my own evil ends by letting him help me to ascend to the throne of murder. Now that I actually am the new lord of murder things look different of course.

I've got a blade left with Drizzt's name on it - and some more with the names of others that bugged me with their goody goody lawfulness during the earlier times of my career. So what to do now? I think first of all I'll turn the whole Radiant Heart bunch into mindless Ghouls under the control of a priest of mine (altough they were already mindless before if you ask me). That high priest of Lathander surely would make a nice priestly lich. Helm and Lathander will probably come after me for such treatment of their followers, but hey, I'll simply point at Cyric and say: "He's the baddy baddy god who's behind it all! Whack him, whack him!" and after they've finished him off I'll cash in the rest of his portfolio.

You see, Tiax was too modest, Irenicus was too emotional and Bodhi was too mercyful. It's as easy as that.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Sun Mar 17, 2002 3:54 pm

something i posted on another thread, as to why I chose neutral...

"neutral, so i can make an informed opinion on which type of planetars to take, since I plan on taking viccy this time, I can keep celestial planetars for holy smite immunity, but evil turn will still allow me to have the limited wish low wisdom exploit, to create a gang of vampires under your control.

but seriously, when I get to hell, I plan to killing saverok in a royal rage, thus turn evil, for the str bonus. and only then will I summon my familiar, to have an imp to torture.

thus really I am evil, since I only play neutral to hide my jolly roger, until I get to the treasure ship areas, and then hoist my true colors, the skull and crossbones, only when it is most profitable for me to do so....

this is the multiple alignment, but basically we are all evil nasty scoundrels,biding our time....

so if you answer "badly" to the planetar, is it funnier????

I am thinking of trying out the evil bhaal powers on a spin....giggle, yet another alignment thingie independent of reputation...

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Sun Mar 17, 2002 3:56 pm

oh , by the way, phantom, did I mention i really admire how grandeous that last sentence was?

only the great baron munchhausen could have topped "tiax was too modest"

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 1:51 am

burp...

Moleman · Post by **Moleman** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 6:13 am

Thank you for the insight, especially UserUnfriendly and Phantom Lord. You convinced me that playing evil can be fun - I will try that as soon as I finish my current game (actually that would be the first time i actually finnish BG2 SoA).

The fact I hadn't realized before is that yes, of course you can do good deeds once in a while if your motives to do them are purely selfish and evil. Being evil doesn't mean that you have to slaughter everyone (duh...)

Some philosophical questions, and these certainly may differ on what kind of evil you are, but isn't making donations to temples a lot like giving a bribe? Then IMO it would be acceptable for evil parties as well.

@Phantom lord: About getting out of Irenicus prison without healing... I think it is OK to have good aligned characters (like Jaheira) in your party to serve your evil goals - you can always get rid of them (backstab/send unarmed to fight/etc.) once you've finished needing them. What could be more evil than that?

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 7:04 am

Originally posted by Moleman
I think it is OK to have good aligned characters (like Jaheira) in your party to serve your evil goals - you can always get rid of them (backstab/send unarmed to fight/etc.) once you've finished needing them. What could be more evil than that?

Like all Druids, Jaheira is True Neutral.

Phantom Lord · Post by **Phantom Lord** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 7:05 am

See, the character I was referring to was neutral evil. If he had been chaotic evil Jaheira would have died on the spot. I even took her out to the surface once (didn't want to waste time, which fits your idea), but in general her brabbling drives me much too insane (or provokes too many chaotic tendencies in my character's mind) and the only solution without killing her would be to silence her which means she can't cast healing spells anymore. Too bad ...

This leads me to a short overview of the different tastes of "evil":
Chaotic evil is basically a psychopathic lawless attitude, often resulting in killing everyone you dislike or just for the fun of it.
Lawful evil means commiting crimes the organized way while using every legal and other loophole you can, much like organized crime or military oppression.
Neutral evil means cunning, playing people off against each other, lying and using violence basically where violence is due to achieve goals.

Concerning the Jaheira situation this could boil down to:

CE: Kill Jaheira at the moment she opens her mouth or sooner if you feel that someone has to suffer instantly because you're in a bad mood, which probably is the case because Johnny just tortured you.
LE: Use her and force yourself to stand her brabbling, then betray her later, eg by ratting on the harpers (unfortunately not possible in the game) and let others kill her unless she gives you a reason to kill her in, uhmm, self defense. Say she summons an animal that you're allergic against ...
NE: Use her if you need her help that bad that you can tolerate her brabbling and get rid of her or kill her later if she annoyed you, which probably is the case because she is an annoying person (the good old druid sacrifice in hell comes to mind).

About the temple thingy: Donating in the sense of bribing is a good idea BUT you're an ascending power yourself. Your only religion is probably your own one, you are your own god and you're probably not going to give your money to other gods without real good reason. NE and LE characters may could find a compromise by stealing the money (or the equivalent in items) from the temple and then donating a small part of it back in order to wash their hands in innocence.

@UU THX for the compliment on my final sentence of that other post. Tiax rules all! Almost ...

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 5:16 am

@UserUnfriendly and Phantom Lord

Find out if you are as evil as you say you are here.

With thanx to CM, same site as in SYm>Your party style, but a differend test.

Phantom Lord · Post by **Phantom Lord** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 7:07 am

As mentioned before it's not me, it's my character that's evil.

Impersonating him I've scored "pure evil" and found that a little disappointing, because I saw that there was some empty space left on the evil scale. I thought he'd be more blackhearted. But on the other hand, there was no question about sacrificing party members intentionally and such things, so the test doesn't match the given situation of my char too well.