What's so great about Katanas?

NightFall Myriad · Post by **NightFall Myriad** » Sat Sep 29, 2001 7:43 pm

Just a thought, but why do so many people glorify these rare weapons?

Seems to me that the scimitar would be a worthier investment to put your proficiency slots in.

The 1d10 is better than the 1d8 of the scimitar but there are only two katanas worth noting.

Celestial Fury: Its a good weapon but the +3 hurts later on with mantle and the like.

Hindo's: Immunity to all death magic? Please... You can cast that with your cleric and your savings throws by then are always better.

Kensai Mages and katanas, Dak'kons blade isn't that great I'd prolly rather have stave and two handed style so that I could use the staff of the magi and the staff of the ram which does nice damage.

So why do you all prefer katanas over scimitars, long swords, the crushing weapons like hammer and flail, bastard swords and to a lesser extent, the short swords and even daggers??

What's the buzz?

Meerlight · Post by **Meerlight** » Sat Sep 29, 2001 8:01 pm

For the record Katanas were hyped up in SOA but aren't anymore with ToB. In SoA Celestial Fury and Dakkon Zerths Blade were some of the best weapons in the game. Also in SoA, longswords weren't that great IMO and niether were bastard swords or scimitars. With the addition of ToB all types of weapons have 1 or 2 awesome weapons.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Sat Sep 29, 2001 8:03 pm

I just don't get how Katana were wielded at every corner. It seemed that every person in Athkatla knew how to use one, even if they weren't from Kara Tur.

Magior · Post by **Magior** » Sun Sep 30, 2001 12:30 am

Celestial Fury is about the best weapon in SoA (not ToB).

Hindo's Doom is actually the most damaging weapon in the game with Kai and Backstab. But compared to other weapons, it sucks a**

Katanas are still better than daggers but there are better weapons in every other type.

Curdis · Post by **Curdis** » Mon Oct 01, 2001 7:40 pm

For those who know my previously stated opinion(s) this could have been a troll... but I will respond none the less.

Katanas (Cheese-tanas) are so great because: They do as much damage as a Two Handed Sword but you can hold one in each hand.
They can be used to by a thief to perform backstabs.

These two points generally make them the Uber weapon of choice for the power gamer and Celestial Fury (despite its lowly +3 status) was second only to Crom Frayer and Carsomyr in SOA for most mighty weapon.

Cheese-tanas suck because there is no justification in the game for why Katanas (Esp. magic Katanas) should be so much better than normal weapons. Why would anyone sacrifice the AC/weapon speed (etc.) to wield a two handed sword?

The explanation (given by TSR) is that (non magical) katanas are so super special that they are essentially sort of magic already (duh give me a break). This explanation starts to look really sad once we talk +1 Katanas (read the description of the +1 Katana in SOA) and in TOB +3 Katanas can be found lying in the street 20 deep. - Special my a_s_s. - Curdis - tana

THE JAKER · Post by **THE JAKER** » Tue Oct 02, 2001 6:38 pm

Very funny post, Curdis.

I think the whole Katana thing goes back to the obsession we had in america in the late 80's/early 90's with Japanese culture. First it was a big samurai craze, then came the ninja fascination. I recall in the Marvel comic books of the time that suddenly, ninjas with katanas were EVERYWHERE. Daredevil and Wolverine especially seemed to have a lot of trouble with them. I think that it was around this time that samurai/ninja weapons were incorporated in D&D, and I think it was done poorly. They sort of bought into the hype too much - making katanas way better than the existing swords in the game.

You can run down all the info about how great real katanas are, how sharp, how tough, etc, and I saw crouching tiger too and love all that stuff, but c'mon...it is unbalancing to the game to let a one handed weapon do the same as two handed. A katana should just be the same as a long sword as far as game mechanics. If katanas are implemented the way they are, then I think a regular nonmagical Katana should cost 10,000 gp.

Curdis · Post by **Curdis** » Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:45 pm

Thanks JAKER I thrive on the unsolicited praise of forum members especially if it regards humour. The first player who bought the 'Oriental Adventures' suppliment

(around 1980 IIRC) spelt the end of my career as a DM. But I don't hate the game just the Katanas... Katanas in Pyjamas... *Drools*... - Curdis

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Tue Oct 02, 2001 10:46 pm

abit of topic perhaps but anyway:
Another weapon most unbalanced, but in the opposite way is the spear. Why o why would anyone choose to wield a twohanded weapon dealing damage as a short sword? i know there are som good magical spears in the game but that doesnt motivate the poor stats for a regular one.

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Wed Oct 03, 2001 12:30 am

Originally posted by Dottie:
abit of topic perhaps but anyway:
Another weapon most unbalanced, but in the opposite way is the spear. Why o why would anyone choose to wield a twohanded weapon dealing damage as a short sword? i know there are som good magical spears in the game but that doesnt motivate the poor stats for a regular one.

Well, A Druid for example can't use the Short Sword. In real life, I guess it comes down to personal inclination - some people like to wield a Short Sword while others feel more comfortable with a Spear. Not to forget, it's also easier to create a Spear than to forge a Short Sword. For my parties, I tend to spread the profiencies as much as possible between the NPCs (no NPC uses the same weapons as another NPC). And as you say, there are lots of good magical Spears in SoA/ToB.

Saruman · Post by **Saruman** » Wed Oct 03, 2001 1:38 am

Following from dottie's comment about spears, what I can't work out is why the spear s a 2 handed weapon in the game. The spears available in the game all look short enough to be considered short spears which were generally used 1 handed along with a shield in large infantry formations.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:24 am

The Katana should be Kensai only IMO and much more powerful, that would make more sense from a role-playing angle.

There have been many legendary swords over the years. The No-Dachi blades for instance.

As per usual ToB unbalanced the weapon issue, this is no different for the katans.

Catcher · Post by **Catcher** » Wed Oct 03, 2001 9:35 am

Spears like bastard swords, lost something in pure power terms coming over from PnP. I think the biggest part of the problem is the limitation of the Infinity Engine. One problem is that spears could be wielded with either one or two hands. When wielded two-handed, it did far more damage. It could also be thrown as a missile weapon. If all those abilities were implemented along with the reach, spears would have been far stronger for thier utility. For example, imagine Jahiera with her 2 slots in weapons and several slingers in the party. How much better would the party be if she could equip one slot with a spear that she could use as 1: A missile wepon
2: A reach weapon behind two blockers
3: A light wepon with AC-enhancing magic shield
4: a heavy weapon with both hands
OUCH! That's some Swiss Army can-opener

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Wed Oct 03, 2001 11:49 am

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
The Katana should be Kensai only IMO and much more powerful, that would make more sense from a role-playing angle.

It's a big metal blade. It's not
that different from other big metal blades, so why shouldn't a regular Fighter be able to use one?

Personally, I liked the way BG1 handled proficiencies much better. Seems ridiculous to me that you can be a Katana Grand Master, but be equally un-proficient in Long Swords and Scimitars as in Flails or Short Bows... It has to rub off some.

Katanas are nothing more than masterwork swords. Even AD&D had rules for weapons of exceptional quality, so why they didn't just implement katanas as masterwork longswords or scimitars is beyond me.

Silvanerian · Post by **Silvanerian** » Wed Oct 03, 2001 1:00 pm

As most of you pnp players probably already know, the Kensai was not allowed to use magical weapons. Instead his nonmagical weapon counted as +1 - 3 or 4 just as the monk. Growing with his skill (level).
I agree with Xyx here, it's a sword, maybe a strange looking one, but still a sword.
Every fighter should be able to pick it up, but I agree that it should be more rare.
One thing though. In SoA only "Koshi","yoshimo" and others with oriental names used katanas, which made me think "okay", but in ToB in order to "balance" everything out, every street merchant sold +3 katanas...strange...

-Silvanerian

Oh, on a sidenote. It would have been nice, if you could become even greater still than grand master in your "prefered weapon". That would be nice. To show that you're the very best at using the bastard sword or whatever, since you've used it always and is a 40th level fighter...higher level than the avatars of the gods thenselves...But then again, I suppose it's some sort of"let's make things more balnced = everybody get's more powerful".

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Wed Oct 03, 2001 3:11 pm

Originally posted by Xyx:
It's a big metal blade. It's not
that different from other big metal blades, so why shouldn't a regular Fighter be able to use one?

I know this is slightly off topic but wouldn't it have been cool if the Kensai had the equivalent of a moonblade that advanced with his levels, that would have been excellent

Perhaps you are right about the Katana issue. However surely the katana should only have been bestowed upon those worthy of owning the blade, not - as several have said - sold by every merchant.

Curdis · Post by **Curdis** » Wed Oct 03, 2001 6:43 pm

I am never going to post another thing about Katanas. This post is an attempt to share the
background to why I think things should be a particular way, it relates to how all weapons
are handled in D&D (BG1&2). My general disclaimers are - 1/Hey its just a game, do it your way. 2/This is just my opinion, you got one too.

Originally in D&D edged weapons were handled simply as dagger 1-4, short sword 1-6,
longsword 1-8, two handed sword 1-10(12?). Other weapons were fitted to this general scale and
as new items were added they were included to fit this general picture. Hence in 2nd ed
AD&D (what BG1&2 are doing license versions of) the only other weapons which do 1-10
(Against small to medium) are the Halberd (2 handed), the Heavy Horse Lance (If used on
horseback in a charge), and the Arquebusque(sp.) - a primitive gun. And of course (though not in the 2nd Ed. Players Handbook) - the Katana. It just doesn't fit the picture at 1-10 in one hand. Let it be 1-8 plus whatever Katana/Kensai bonus but 1-10 is just cheese.

TOB has shown that the game designers now recognise this, as 'fodder' opponents in TOB routinely use Katanas/Shields etc.(fight fire with fire) and every shop sells +3 Katanas. In the description for the +1 Katanas (in BG2) it says making such a blade magical requires the spirit of a warrior to pass into the sword so it will certainly have consequences if the wielder fails to uphold blah, blah, blah.... My Chaotic Evil Assasian has the (generally poisoned) +3 version in both hands and spits on the name of Samuri and all they honour - if the katanas don't like it they sure ain't saying anything about it (only joking I don't use Katanas 'cause I can't make them fit the,<my>, picture). - Curdis

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Wed Oct 03, 2001 8:42 pm

I have swore to myself that I would never use the katana as a proficiency type for my PC. So far so good.

ParadoxIncarnate · Post by **ParadoxIncarnate** » Wed Oct 03, 2001 8:50 pm

That's why the celestial fury is the best weapon in SoA. Nobody ever seemed to understand, they always favored crom (waaaaay too late in the game to even discuss) or foa (slow and damage isnt that great). The significance of an incapacitated enemy if they fail a save for EVERY HIT can't be stressed enough. Celestial Fury + Belm was my BG2 formula.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Thu Oct 04, 2001 1:44 am

paradox, this ability is shared by a much better weapon, in the opinion of a lot of people, and another wep that is better at doing the same thing!

Flail of ages has no save for the slow, so it worked more often

staff of thunder and lightning has the same incapacitation, nut also can cast call lightning, a very good druid spell

imho, foa is better combat wise

staff is better by far for the same qualities

without the slow effect, foa is a rather unremarkable weapon.

ParadoxIncarnate · Post by **ParadoxIncarnate** » Thu Oct 04, 2001 2:25 pm

the staff is better by far?

only a 10% chance to stun and they still get a save? with celestial fury you get it every hit. its also one handed. it also has 5% chance of doing 20 elec damage. its also faster. you can get it earlier in the game, too. it may not outdamage the staff, but add in the belm (which you cannot do with the staff) and it does.

foa is also much slower than the celestial fury, only has a "chance" to slow; the same as the CF has a "chance" to stun. slowed enemies are also still doing damage. no damage is always better than half damage.

i also like how the stun effect works through stoneskin.