marriage vs. partnership

[Xandax]

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn


You speak of a couple having the love and commitment without being married, but if they love each other so much and are so committed to each other, then why are they so afraid of getting married? Are they afraid they'll find they're not as committed/in love as they think they are? Please explain.

Well for starters - maybe they don't belive they have to/want to get marriage. Maybe they don't think of the church or god as something worhtwile and therefore don't need that proof on their relationship.

And btw - that reasoning you put forth can be turned around:
Why are people so willing to jump into marriage in search of happiness- don't they think their relationship can withstand pressure, if they don't get married and have witnesses - are their love not strong enough, aren't they secure of themself, do they fear their partner will cheat?
(and if they do - why the heck would they marry?)

It has nothing (nesecarily) to do with fear - people have their own reasons for own actions, wich I can't explain.
Some are proberly affriad I'll grant you that - but it is not the only thought that governs peoples reason.

Again I pose: How is it that you can state that if 2 people are in love and comitted to each other, that they *will* be more happy in a marriage and that marriage *is* better for them?

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by Xandax
Well for starters - maybe they don't belive they have to/want to get marriage. Maybe they don't think of the church or god as something worhtwile and therefore don't need that proof on their relationship.

God/church has nothing to do with this. One can get married in a secular setting without reference to God or church. This is just another excuse used to rationalize not getting married. Why don't they want to get married? Because, whether concious of it or not, they're afraid to make the commitment. They feel more free in the "partnership" than they would in a marriage.

And btw - that reasoning you put forth can be turned around:
Why are people so willing to jump into marriage in search of happiness- don't they think their relationship can withstand pressure, if they don't get married and have witnesses - are their love not strong enough, aren't they secure of themself, do they fear their partner will cheat?
(and if they do - why the heck would they marry?)

Of course. Virtually any reasoning can be turned around if you know how.

I don't know why people are so willing to jump into marriage in search of happiness. It is too big of a decision to make so lightly. If they don't think they can withstand the pressure, then are they really as committed as they think they are? If you aren't willing to take the risk of things going awry, do you really love the person as much as you think you do? As I said before, it's guidelines that we need because humans are fools. There's proof of that fact all over the place.

It has nothing (nesecarily) to do with fear - people have their own reasons for own actions, wich I can't explain.
Some are proberly affriad I'll grant you that - but it is not the only thought that governs peoples reason.

It has everything to do with fear. Fear can range in how it shows itself, ranging from panic to rationalizing a way around the fear, and we don't always know that we're afraid, and sometimes when we do know we're afraid, we don't know what we're afraid of.

Again I pose: How is it that you can state that if 2 people are in love and comitted to each other, that they *will* be more happy in a marriage and that marriage *is* better for them?

Hmm...I don't recall saying that they will be happier in a marriage. I think that was EMINEM who was saying that and I don't agree with him. Although, it's not hard to state anything. But if you're asking how I can believe that, it's not hard to believe. Hard to explain, maybe, but not hard to believe.

Also, I'll turn this back around to you. How is it that you can state that if 2 people are in love and committed to each other, that they *will* be happier outside of marriage and that these so-called "partnerships" *are* better for them?

[fable]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by EMINEM
A marriage of "love" is a relatively recent thing.

So is it possible, do you think, to be married in the sight of god and not in the sight of the law? Would this not constitute marriage under god?

A marriage of "souls" on the other hands sounds distinctly New Agey, and an even newer [hokey?] phenomenon.

I am sorry I couldn't find words you would deem appropriate to represent the remarkable love that can exist between people who are honest and compassionate. Perhaps when you actually experience the condition yourself, you'll find words you can accept. And who knows...? Maybe someone else will find them hokey and New Agey, too.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

originally posted by SS
You speak of a couple having the love and commitment without being married, but if they love each other so much and are so committed to each other, then why are they so afraid of getting married? Are they afraid they'll find they're not as committed/in love as they think they are? Please explain.

I'm fairly certain I answered this one a while back. Maybe they don't feel the need to get married. Maybe they believe that as long as they know how they feel, that's good enough. Maybe they're so poor they can't afford a wedding or a trip to Vegas . Maybe it's just not important to them.

Why should they have to get married if they don't want to? What gives anyone else the right to say how they should behave, and to question the validity of their relationship just because it hasn't been formally recognized in the eyes of whoever or whatever you happen to believe in? As long as they're committed does it really matter whether it's "official" or not?

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper


I'm fairly certain I answered this one a while back. Maybe they don't feel the need to get married. Maybe they believe that as long as they know how they feel, that's good enough. Maybe they're so poor they can't afford a wedding or a trip to Vegas . Maybe it's just not important to them.

Why should they have to get married if they don't want to? What gives anyone else the right to say how they should behave, and to question the validity of their relationship just because it hasn't been formally recognized in the eyes of whoever or whatever you happen to believe in? As long as they're committed does it really matter whether it's "official" or not?

You did answer before, in the same way you're answering now; but I'm not looking for more of this "maybe they don't feel the need to get married" crap, which doesn't really answer the question. At best, you're just providing more proof of rationalization to avoid the commitment.

If you're so committed to a person, why are you so against getting married? This has nothing to do with whether you feel like getting married. I'm not asking this because whether you feel like getting married is 100% up to you. What I'm asking is why you're so against marriage if you really do have this much commitment?

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Why is it that commitment has to be synonymous with marriage? I'm neither for nor against marriage; I simply do not feel that it is really that important. I believe that it is the commitment that counts, not the formality. What I want to know is what does it matter whether I get married or not, so long as I am that committed?

I get the feeling you're missing my point. I'm not saying that marriage is better or worse than partnership, I'm saying neither one is more valid than the other. Just because I'm not for marriage doesn't mean I have to be against it.

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
Why is it that commitment has to be synonymous with marriage? I'm neither for nor against marriage; I simply do not feel that it is really that important. I believe that it is the commitment that counts, not the formality. What I want to know is what does it matter whether I get married or not, so long as I am that committed?

I get the feeling you're missing my point. I'm not saying that marriage is better or worse than partnership, I'm saying neither one is more valid than the other. Just because I'm not for marriage doesn't mean I have to be against it.

Alright, I'll give you that much(@ not for, but not against either), though I would still like for someone to answer my questions from the view of one who is against. There was at least one person who was speaking from that viewpoint(whether that is their personal view or they're "playing Devil's advocate" I don't know). It's difficult to keep straight who's saying exactly what, though, when you're basically the only one(no offense meant @ EMINEM) against more than a half dozen others in a 'debate.'

And I do agree with you that what is important is the commitment. I have not once said, nor have I meant to imply, that marriage and commitment are synonymous. But the foundations of marriage are love, trust, and commitment. If you've got all these in the partnership, what is the point in not getting married? I've already pointed out that you can have a totally secular marriage ceremony. I've been to plenty of marriage ceremonies that were done in places that are not specifically considered holy by any religion and were only Christian ceremonies because those getting married were Christian and there was a Pastor performing the wedding ceremony. One could just as easily have a judge(or whatever state(?) official does this job) perform the wedding ceremony and make it in no way Christian.

I do have a question specifically for you, Ode. Well, two if you count that I'm curious as to where you got your name. The other is, why are you arguing againt marriage if you don't have anything against marriage?

Oh, and FYI, don't expect anymore posts from me in this topic until tomorrow morning/mid-afternoon(Central Standard Time). I'm already getting to the point of incoherent tiredness and I really need to work on the final draft of an essay that was due today, so I'm going to put off all posting(except spam) until the aforementioned times, k? Certainly don't be afraid to go ahead and reply to my post, though.

Edit: Nevermind the FYI. My essay took less time than I expected it to and a half-liter of Dr. Pepper has given me a bit more energy.

[Xandax]

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn

It has everything to do with fear. Fear can range in how it shows itself, ranging from panic to rationalizing a way around the fear, and we don't always know that we're afraid, and sometimes when we do know we're afraid, we don't know what we're afraid of.

So you state and belive that it is fear that causes people not to get married? Or do you also belive that there can be other reasons?
If you do the first - then I simply can't belive that you think the human race to be so simplistic.
I must be sure to ask my uncle why he is affraid of marraige since he has lived in a marriage-like relationship for some 25+ years.

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn

<snip>
Also, I'll turn this back around to you. How is it that you can state that if 2 people are in love and committed to each other, that they *will* be happier outside of marriage and that these so-called "partnerships" *are* better for them?

Well actually I don't think that.
That is the difference; I am not advocating one over another.
I belive it is peoples right to choose, and nobody else has anything to say about it.

This thread was/is about marriage vs. a non-marriage relationship - and I can't understand how people can say that one is better then the other, when there are so many factors that play a part in it.
Some people are happier in a marriage, some people are happier outside the marraige, but some people are unhappy inside a marriage just as some are out of one.
It has nothing to do whith marriage to be a better institution than the other, it has to do whith the people that choose one over the other.

You can not logical explain or state that the marriage is a better institution for people than non-marriaged patnership. You might *belive* it - but still that dosen't make it better.

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn

But the foundations of marriage are love, trust, and commitment. If you've got all these in the partnership, what is the point in not getting married?

Why should they if they dosen't want marriage - some people are different then you and don't belive that marriage would offer them anything.
If all the things are present in the relationship what is the reason to get married?

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by Xandax
Why should they get married? - It has to do with what the people want - they are not more happy in a marriage, they don't feel there is a reason to get the name on a piece of paper, they don't want to be part of a shallow tradition, whatever their resoning is it is their choice to do as they like and do as they feel best.
People will want different things for their lives - and what is best is something subjective - marriage isn't neacesarily better for people.

You can't compare the level of commitment with the willingness to get marriaged as it is two seperate things.

If that's the case, then why should they expect to get the legal benifits of marriage without getting married? Hmm?

[Xandax]

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn


If that's the case, then why should they expect to get the legal benifits of marriage without getting married? Hmm?

I've never once stated that they should have the same benefits - that is somebody else

I've only stated - that you can't say one is better than the other.
(well you can *say* it - but you can't *explain* it )

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by Xandax
So you state and belive that it is fear that causes people not to get married? Or do you also belive that there can be other reasons?
If you do the first - then I simply can't belive that you think the human race to be so simplistic.
I must be sure to ask my uncle why he is affraid of marraige since he has lived in a marriage-like relationship for some 25+ years.

I've yet to see any other reason that was not just another apparent rationalization to avoid the fear. And no one has given any explanation why any of the reasons given thus far aren't just rationalization.

Oh, and I think it'd be a good idea to ask your uncle that question. His answer would be valid for this discussion. I'm certainly interested in know what his response is, whether it is for or against what I'm saying.

I cannot say that what I'm saying about the fear and rationalization is 100% right and if I have said or implied such a thing, I apologize. However, I was asked to specifically use logic and that's what I've done. I looked at the data I have critically, using all logic skills I have, and applied my somewhat limited understanding of psychology, and came to a logical conclusion. That certainly doesn't mean you have to agree with my logic, but it is what was asked for and I suggest you try to look at the logic from a different perspective than that of one who is trying to prove that these so-called partnerships are as good as or better than marriage.

Well actually I don't think that.
That is the difference; I am not advocating one over another.
I belive it is peoples right to choose, and nobody else has anything to say about it.

This thread was/is about marriage vs. a non-marriage relationship - and I can't understand how people can say that one is better then the other, when there are so many factors that play a part in it.
Some people are happier in a marriage, some people are happier outside the marraige, but some people are unhappy inside a marriage just as some are out of one.
It has nothing to do whith marriage to be a better institution than the other, it has to do whith the people that choose one over the other.

You can not logical explain or state that the marriage is a better institution for people than non-marriaged patnership. You might *belive* it - but still that dosen't make it better.

I agree that it is a choice that must be made, not by the individual, but by the couple. However, if they're going to choose to not get married, why then should they still recieve the benifits that are gained by those who do choose to marry? I see absolutely no logic in the belief that they should. By deciding to not marry, they are deciding that they don't need that 'institution' nor anything that comes with it.

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by Xandax


I've never once stated that they should have the same benefits - that is somebody else

I've only stated - that you can't say one is better than the other.
(well you can *say* it - but you can't *explain* it )

Well, if you're not going to provide an answer for that, could you please go get whoever it is that has been saying that so that I can get an answer to the question???

This is why it's annoying to argue with a revolving door. Walls are much more fun to argue with as they stay where they are and you do not change walls until you choose to switch to a different wall. With revolving doors, they keep changing without you saying that it's okay to switch to the next one.

[Xandax]

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn


Well, if you're not going to provide an answer for that, could you please go get whoever it is that has been saying that so that I can get an answer to the question???
<snip>

No actually you have to do that yourself - I won't be acountable for other peoples comments.

[Xandax]

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn

That certainly doesn't mean you have to agree with my logic, but it is what was asked for and I suggest you try to look at the logic from a different perspective than that of one who is trying to prove that these so-called partnerships are as good as or better than marriage.

Hmmm- so you don't think I'm trying to see another perspective?
Well thank you for pointing out that I use the wrong kind of logic

usually when I discuss something I end up in a state where I can stay: I understand what you mean, but don't agree.
This I can't do here - because I can not understand you logic.
So you only have personal experience with people whom aren't getting married out of fear - or rationaliszing (which imo is not a bad word - if only more people would rationalize then we whould have so many bad marriages and such a high divorce rate)
Well my personal experience tells me otherwise (mainly due to friends and faimily).
For instance - I've got a friend, whom got marrieaged out of fear, for what his parents would think seeing as he has lived with the same women for 5-6 years. How is that for rationalization.


But all this still don't lead to a conclusion that one is better than the other.
You state marriage *is* better - if nothing else for the legal benifits.
I state that people can be just as happy outside marriage.

[Jace]

SS, why do you equate a desire to not get married with a fear of marriage?

In my own situation I see nothing that marriage could provide for me and my girlfriend that would enhance (or detract) from our relationship.

On a side note, my girlfriends parents still call eachother boyfriend and girlfriend after 30+ years of marriage.

[fable]

Originally posted by Jace
On a side note, my girlfriends parents still call eachother boyfriend and girlfriend after 30+ years of marriage.

That's reassuring. It seems to me that any relationship, whether under law, under one's god, or simply under one's own commitment, requires a sense of renewal to remain alive, and not degenerate into a travesty of itself.

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by Xandax
You state marriage *is* better - if nothing else for the legal benifits.
I state that people can be just as happy outside marriage.

Actually, I've stated the latter as well as the former. I have never said that a person cannot be happy outside of marriage. That was EMINEM.

I believe I've also said that it's a decision to be made by each individual couple. However, that does not make the decision to not marry right. And I won't say that a couple who is not married according to the law is not married in God's eyes because there is more to marriage than just "a piece of paper" as ya'll so eloquently put it. But we are also supposed to obey the law and there are laws regarding marriage, at least in the US. While you will never hear me say that the US is the only country that matters, it is the country who's laws I know the most about(which isn't saying much).

[Xandax]

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn


Actually, I've stated the latter as well as the former. I have never said that a person cannot be happy outside of marriage. That was EMINEM.

I believe I've also said that it's a decision to be made by each individual couple. However, that does not make the decision to not marry right. <snip>

Okay - so you don't state that a marriage is better than a non-marriaged relationship.

You just state that it isen't "right" not to get married?
Why isn't it right?

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by Xandax


Okay - so you don't state that a marriage is better than a non-marriaged relationship.

You just state that it isen't "right" not to get married?
Why isn't it right?

I've already provided my 'logic' on this matter, as well as some things that I believe back up my point of view.

It's obvious that no one's view is going to be changed here, at least not that of anyone participating in this discussion, and we've reached a point where all we can do is repeat ourselves. I believe this indicates that we have reached a stalemate and it would be rather pointless to continue this discussion, unlness you want for us to just go on for eternity repeating ourselves.

[Mom&Son]

<<---------- feeling old and wise!


OK, here's the scoop. I lived with 2 men prior to marrying a 3rd. The first 2 didn't work, the 3rd...well, we've been married 20 years in a month! (Yikes!) (The secret, you ask? I wasn't looking...never wanted to date another man...we were friends first and then lovers)
The only real difference (and it IS a difference), is that in our society there is a certain permanence placed on marriage, and I do think that filters into the relationship (this is assuming that the pair do not go into marriage saying "we can always get divorced"). Once you do it, it should be done. It changes things ... perhaps just a tad, but maybe that tad is what makes the difference!
It changes it from a commitment that 2 people make to each other privately, to a civil/religious ceremony that is witness by friends and family. It is a commitment (by many people) to their chosen God. I think that marrying makes one stop, take a breath and knowingly make that commitment.
Corny? Perhaps. But, I did tell my honey that he can never divorce me....I'm NOT going through another wedding! LOL!!