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marriage vs. partnership

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Post by Beldin »

@Mom: First of all - Welcome to SYM !
Originally posted by Mom&Son
[B <snip> each other privately, to a civil/religious ceremony that is witness by friends and family. It is a commitment (by many people) to their chosen God. <snip> [/b]
- THAT'S where the problems start in this thread. :)

I haven't chosen a god (yet ?) . And the civil regulations can go and ***********..... I hope you get my drift.

My opinion is still that no worldly or religious regulations could commit myself and my partner MORE than we are now.

DISCLAIMER:
That doesn't mean that marriage couldn't work for other people - like you. If you're happy, then all's well. I just don't see any difference between being committet without marriage and committment WITH marriage. Sorry for being stubborn. ;)

No worries,

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Post by Ode to a Grasshopper »

Originally posted by SS
Alright, I'll give you that much(@ not for, but not against either), though I would still like for someone to answer my questions from the view of one who is against. There was at least one person who was speaking from that viewpoint(whether that is their personal view or they're "playing Devil's advocate" I don't know). It's difficult to keep straight who's saying exactly what, though, when you're basically the only one(no offense meant @ EMINEM) against more than a half dozen others in a 'debate.'
And I do agree with you that what is important is the commitment. I have not once said, nor have I meant to imply, that marriage and commitment are synonymous. But the foundations of marriage are love, trust, and commitment. If you've got all these in the partnership, what is the point in not getting married? I've already pointed out that you can have a totally secular marriage ceremony. I've been to plenty of marriage ceremonies that were done in places that are not specifically considered holy by any religion and were only Christian ceremonies because those getting married were Christian and there was a Pastor performing the wedding ceremony. One could just as easily have a judge(or whatever state(?) official does this job) perform the wedding ceremony and make it in no way Christian.
I do have a question specifically for you, Ode. Well, two if you count that I'm curious as to where you got your name. The other is, why are you arguing againt marriage if you don't have anything against marriage?
Oh, and FYI, don't expect anymore posts from me in this topic until tomorrow morning/mid-afternoon(Central Standard Time). I'm already getting to the point of incoherent tiredness and I really need to work on the final draft of an essay that was due today, so I'm going to put off all posting(except spam) until the aforementioned times, k? Certainly don't be afraid to go ahead and reply to my post, though.
Edit: Nevermind the FYI. My essay took less time than I expected it to and a half-liter of Dr. Pepper has given me a bit more energy.

Half a liter of Dr Pepper in one sitting(Shudder).

My name is taken from the live version of the song The End, by the Doors. My real name is Graham, which is much less interesting, so Ode to a Grasshopper it was. Ode to a Grasshopper is also what I called my first BG character.

I've been arguing for partnership because, given a choice between marriage and partnership, I personally would choose partnership. If I want to buy my partner a ring, or have a party celebrating our commitment, I don't see the need for justifying it with marriage. I don't think it's right that people should have pressure placed upon them to marry, or not to marry for that matter, when neither option is better than the other. Unfortunately, in modern-day Western society, there is pressure upon couples to marry, and it is that interference in other peoples' lives with which I disagree.
I guess you could say I'm arguing for freedom of choice.

Anyway, I'm spending the Easter weekend on my dad's yacht, so I'm not going to be able to access a computer for a couple of days. Have fun without me. Happy Easter, all.
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Post by Sailor Saturn »

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
Half a liter of Dr Pepper in one sitting(Shudder).
LoL *wonders if she should mention that she has drank 3½ liters of Dr. Pepper today, 1½ liters of it being within an hour of eating lunch and the other 2 liters being within the past 2½ hours* :D
My name is taken from the live version of the song The End, by the Doors. My real name is Graham, which is much less interesting, so Ode to a Grasshopper it was. Ode to a Grasshopper is also what I called my first BG character.
Ode to a Grasshopper is certainly an interesting name, though I also like the name Graham. :)
I've been arguing for partnership because, given a choice between marriage and partnership, I personally would choose partnership. If I want to buy my partner a ring, or have a party celebrating our commitment, I don't see the need for justifying it with marriage. I don't think it's right that people should have pressure placed upon them to marry, or not to marry for that matter, when neither option is better than the other. Unfortunately, in modern-day Western society, there is pressure upon couples to marry, and it is that interference in other peoples' lives with which I disagree.
I guess you could say I'm arguing for freedom of choice.
I agree that pressure should not be put on people to marry. I still don't agree with these so-called partnerships. I believe that the two should wait until they feel they are ready to marry before they get married, all the while exersizing self-control, remaining pure, and getting to know each other better which in turn helps to build a stronger relationship. (Note: Getting to know each other better does not include sex. Sex does not build strong, lasting relationships between people.)

Marriage is a partnership. We need another term to refer to these marriage-less partnerships because 'partnership' is too general a term.

Anyway, I'm spending the Easter weekend on my dad's yacht, so I'm not going to be able to access a computer for a couple of days. Have fun without me. Happy Easter, all.
Have fun! :)
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Post by Beldin »

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn

Marriage is a partnership.
Might that be because it's the same ? No matter if you're married or not ?
Originally posted by Sailor Saturn

Sex does not build strong, lasting relationships between people.
But on the other side you can't have a long lasting, happy relationship WITHOUT sex. I doesn't work in the long run...sex is a part of partnership just like eating dinner together... - If you don't "do" it once in a while you'll lose contact to each other. (That goes for both : dinners AND sex... ;) )
Originally posted by Sailor Saturn

Note: Getting to know each other better does not include sex.
Wrong.

Getting to know each other better HAS to include sex.
Otherwise you wouldn't really KNOW each other . But of course you could wait with the sex part until you're married (-at your own risk ;) ) - but you won't KNOW every aspect of the other until you've tried THAT too...

No worries,

Beldin :cool:
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Post by frogus »

just to clear the air hear..and SS I am not trying to twist your words...
I've yet to see any other reason that was not just another apparent rationalization to avoid the fear.
If you've got all these in the partnership, what is the point in not getting married? I've already pointed out that you can have a totally secular marriage ceremony.
I agree that pressure should not be put on people to marry.
Sure, arranged marriages occur, and they may even have a chance for turning into a real marriage, meaning a marriage filled with love. Marriage does not need law to be a marriage in God's eyes.
peopl e rationalizing these so-called partnerships as a way to avoid their fear of truly committing by getting married. If you're not afraid to make that commitment, then what's stopping you?
You speak of a couple having the love and commitment without being married, but if they love each other so much and are so committed to each other, then why are they so afraid of getting married?
So is this your point of view?:
Marriage is what should happen between a couple, if the relationship were just left alone and allowed to progress it would end in marriage if they were suitably commited. People who are not suitably commited should not get married (because it would end badly), but people who are, should, because it is the 'right' thing to do. However, 'Marriage does not need law to be a marriage in God's eyes' and you've 'already pointed out that you can have a totally secular marriage ceremony'. Is this your point of view, or am I mistaken?
If it is, it would seem that the reason why marriage is better than partnership is not to do with god, nor is it to do with the law...what is it about then?
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Post by frogus »

"Falling into tempation" is meaning that we get tempted and succumb to temptation. An example would be a "beautiful" girl acting in a seductive way and so you go and sleep with her, even though you're married. It is not necessarily that extreme or black&white, but that is an example. An example of deliberate sin would be more along the lines of hiring a prostitute to sleep with you, especially if you're married.
The defining line between deliberate and unintentional is not clear with any 'sin.' Look at the different "types" of murder for example. If you've thought about killing someone, then you get into an argument with them, which turns into a fight in which you kill the person, is it a)pre-meditated, b)'temporary insanity'(in other words, you temporarily lost control of yourself, including the "knowledge" of what is right or wrong), or c.)self-defense?
How do you decide whether it is one or the other, I can't say for certain. Some people might say one thing was deliberate, while another might say it was unintentional. Either way, the person did wrong.
These three quotes do not sit well together...do you actually think that that sin can be deliberate or accidental, as you say in the first quote, or do you believe that sin cannot be classified as deliberate or accidental, as you say in the second and third quotes?

ps this is going somewhere and is not just irrelevent spam...just give me a second...
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Post by Sailor Saturn »

Originally posted by Beldin
But on the other side you can't have a long lasting, happy relationship WITHOUT sex. I doesn't work in the long run...sex is a part of partnership just like eating dinner together... - If you don't "do" it once in a while you'll lose contact to each other. (That goes for both : dinners AND sex... )
Duuude, that is total BS, and no, I don't mean Bloodstalker. I know couples that have been married for 40-50 years, are beyond the point of having sex, and still have a very close relationship, possibly closer than they have ever had before in their life. Sex is an intimate thing, but it is not necessary for a long lasting, happy relationship.
Wrong.

Getting to know each other better HAS to include sex.
Otherwise you wouldn't really KNOW each other . But of course you could wait with the sex part until you're married (-at your own risk ;) ) - but you won't KNOW every aspect of the other until you've tried THAT too...

No worries,

Beldin :cool:
Yes, sex does provide knowledge of each other in another, very intimate, way; but that is not what I'm talking about. I'm refering to the getting to know each other that is accomplished by things such as staying up all night talking. Learning more about what the other believes, what experiences they've had in their life, what scares them, what makes them happy, etc. etc. etc. Sex has absolutely nothing to do with that and is not part of the pre-marital-getting-to-know-each-other process. The idea that it is part of pre-marital-getting-to-know-each-other process is just BS perverted boyfriends use to get their naive girlfriends to sleep with them. Image
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Post by Sailor Saturn »

Originally posted by frogus
just to clear the air hear..and SS I am not trying to twist your words... So is this your point of view?:
Marriage is what should happen between a couple, if the relationship were just left alone and allowed to progress it would end in marriage if they were suitably commited. People who are not suitably commited should not get married (because it would end badly), but people who are, should, because it is the 'right' thing to do. However, 'Marriage does not need law to be a marriage in God's eyes' and you've 'already pointed out that you can have a totally secular marriage ceremony'. Is this your point of view, or am I mistaken?
If it is, it would seem that the reason why marriage is better than partnership is not to do with god, nor is it to do with the law...what is it about then?
That is some of my view. I believe you have missed a few things, but I don't have time to really think about it because I need to leave for class in a few minutes.

I will say this much. Marriage is about love, trust, and commitment. Like I said, if you've got all those in your "partnership," what is keeping you from getting married?

And might I point out that when someone is afraid of doing so, they rationalize it with things such as "I don't feel like it" and "I don't want to." To show the ridiculousness of that, I heard 2- and 3-year-olds shouting those right before going on a ride, then enjoying the ride, and getting off it saying "Can we do that again!?"(well, not necesarily quite so articulated, but you get the idea.) Think on that. I've got to go now. I'll be back to see your response later today. :)
Protected by Saturn, Planet of Silence... I am the soldier of death and rebirth...I am Sailor Saturn.

I would also like you to meet my alternate personality, Mistress 9.

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Post by Beldin »

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn

Duuude, that is total BS, and no, I don't mean Bloodstalker. I know couples that have been married for 40-50 years, are beyond the point of having sex, and still have a very close relationship, possibly closer than they have ever had before in their life. Sex is an intimate thing, but it is not necessary for a long lasting, happy relationship.
[/IMG]
But, you see - they probably wouldn't have stayed together for such a long time WITHOUT haveing sex once in a while...

I'm not saying that sex is the only way to happiness, but it sure helps. ;)

- AND my dear @SS - face the fact - SEX is just as much part of a partnership as is "sitting up all night and talk".
Some like it more , some like it less, but it's a part of human nature. :)

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn


Yes, sex does provide knowledge of each other in another, very intimate, way; but that is not what I'm talking about. I'm refering to the getting to know each other that is accomplished by things such as staying up all night talking. Learning more about what the other believes, what experiences they've had in their life, what scares them, what makes them happy, etc. etc. etc. Sex has absolutely nothing to do with that and is not part of the pre-marital-getting-to-know-each-other process. The idea that it is part of pre-marital-getting-to-know-each-other process is just BS perverted boyfriends use to get their naive girlfriends to sleep with them. Image
Could it be that people who want "to know each other deeply and marry before we sleep with each other" are just afraid of sex ??

No worries,

Beldin :cool:
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Post by Beldin »

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn



And might I point out that when someone is afraid of doing so, they rationalize it with things such as "I don't feel like it" and "I don't want to." To show the ridiculousness of that, I heard 2- and 3-year-olds shouting those right before going on a ride, then enjoying the ride, and getting off it saying "Can we do that again!?"(well, not necesarily quite so articulated, but you get the idea.) Think on that. I've got to go now. I'll be back to see your response later today. :)
..and I might point out that my WIFE (even if we're not married) has been married for 8 years before her husband had a nasty accident and died.

1) So we're done with any god you might come up with - marriage out of our religious "needs" is out of the game. We're not talking to deities anymore.

2) Marriage because of financial benefits - tax laws around here are the same for "married couple" and for "shared residency" (sp?) . - So that's out too.

3) Marriage to show our commitment ? You're probably MORE comitted if you get the name of our spouse tatooed somewhere on your body.
Marriage is nice for people who care about social or religious acceptance or for people who just like to have a party to announce their comittment.

We, for my person and that of my wife, see no use in it.

No worries,

Beldin :cool:
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Post by Sojourner »

Originally posted by Mom&Son
The only real difference (and it IS a difference), is that in our society there is a certain permanence placed on marriage, and I do think that filters into the relationship (this is assuming that the pair do not go into marriage saying "we can always get divorced"). Once you do it, it should be done. It changes things ... perhaps just a tad, but maybe that tad is what makes the difference!
It changes it from a commitment that 2 people make to each other privately, to a civil/religious ceremony that is witness by friends and family. It is a commitment (by many people) to their chosen God. I think that marrying makes one stop, take a breath and knowingly make that commitment.
Corny? Perhaps. But, I did tell my honey that he can never divorce me....I'm NOT going through another wedding! LOL!!
I agree wholeheartedly. I actually had cold feet right before my wedding, knowing that I was about to make a life-long commitment. I see very few couples in "a partnership" make this kind of commitment.

@Beldin - Depending on where you're at, don't be surprised to discover you're in a Common-Law marriage. ;)
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Post by Beldin »

Originally posted by Sojourner

you're at, don't be surprised to discover you're in a Common-Law marriage. ;)
@Sojo: I'm in Austria - and what's a Common-Law marriage ?

No worries,

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Post by Sojourner »

Ah, then it probably doesn't apply to you:

In the U.S., religous wedding ceremonies have always been, and still are, recognized by the State. Historically, as pioneers moved West, it would often take a while for the religious/legal infrastructure to catch up with them. As a result, there was a distinct shortage of ministers to "tie the knot" in some communities, so couples would co-habitate with the intention of having the preacher perform a proper wedding as soon as one became available. Out of this came statutes recognizing these relationships as Common-Law marriages, some of which are still on the books today. For such a relationship to be recognized as a Common-Law marriage, you must have lived with your partner for a certain period of time - this may vary from area to area. There may be some precedent in British Common Law as well.
There's nothing a little poison couldn't cure...

What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, ... to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security.
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Post by Beldin »

Originally posted by Sojourner
Ah, then it probably doesn't apply to you:

In the U.S., religous wedding ceremonies have always been, and still are, recognized by the State. Historically, as pioneers moved West, it would often take a while for the religious/legal infrastructure to catch up with them. As a result, there was a distinct shortage of ministers to "tie the knot" in some communities, so couples would co-habitate with the intention of having the preacher perform a proper wedding as soon as one became available. Out of this came statutes recognizing these relationships as Common-Law marriages, some of which are still on the books today. For such a relationship to be recognized as a Common-Law marriage, you must have lived with your partner for a certain period of time - this may vary from area to area.
Thanks for clarifying ! :)

and - NO - it doesn't apply here. But I like the idea....being married without going through some useless ceremony ....I could really like that idea... :D

No worries,

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Post by Mom&Son »

You're probably MORE comitted if you get the name of our spouse tatooed somewhere on your body.


I HAD to laugh at this one.....I think it depends on where the tatoo is!

If it's not able to be easily hidden, then maybe it spells commitment!! HAH HAA HAH! :D




One must maintain a sense of humor regarding all things serious! ;)
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Post by Beldin »

Originally posted by Mom&Son

One must maintain a sense of humor regarding all things serious! ;)
Exactly my sentiments ! ;)

:D No worries, :D

Beldin :cool:
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Post by fable »

Originally posted by Mom&Son
One must maintain a sense of humor regarding all things serious! ;)
Reminds me of an old Viennese proverb: "Elsewhere, situations are serious but solvable. In Vienna, situations are unsolvable, but never serious." :)

That said, we've certainly seen a lot of different sides of this issue presented in this thread. As of yet, however, nobody has seriously advocated celibacy--not before marriage, but as a lifelong activity.

Any takers?
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Post by Sailor Saturn »

Originally posted by Beldin
But, you see - they probably wouldn't have stayed together for such a long time WITHOUT haveing sex once in a while...

I'm not saying that sex is the only way to happiness, but it sure helps.

- AND my dear @SS - face the fact - SEX is just as much part of a partnership as is "sitting up all night and talk".
Some like it more , some like it less, but it's a part of human nature.
Sex can be a pleasurable experience, sure; but it is not at all necessary to have a long, happy, joyous relationship. As Heinlein says, sex is just the icing on the cake. A good cake is good even without the icing. If your 'cake' isn't any good without the 'icing,' your relationship ain't gonna last. Sex is part of being married to each other, but it is not necessary and should wait until after you two marry. No offense, Beldin, but I'm certainly glad I'm not your SO. I don't want to be married to someone who puts so much importance on something as unimportant as sex.
Could it be that people who want "to know each other deeply and marry before we sleep with each other" are just afraid of sex ??
:rolleyes: Thanks for the laugh. :p

I choose to not have sex before marriage because I wish to remain pure for my future spouse, and I hope that that person has also made the choice to remain pure. :)
Protected by Saturn, Planet of Silence... I am the soldier of death and rebirth...I am Sailor Saturn.

I would also like you to meet my alternate personality, Mistress 9.

Mistress 9: You will be spammed. Your psychotic and spamming distinctiveness will be added to the board. Resistance is futile. *evil laugh*

Ain't she wonderful? ¬_¬

I knew I had moree in common with BS than was first apparent~Yshania

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Post by Beldin »

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn

I choose to not have sex before marriage because I wish to remain pure for my future spouse, and I hope that that person has also made the choice to remain pure.
Let me answer that by quoting the famous Sailor Saturn Herself:
Originally posted by Sailor Saturn


And might I point out that when someone is afraid of doing so, they rationalize it with things such as "I don't feel like it" and "I don't want to." To show the ridiculousness of that, I heard 2- and 3-year-olds shouting those right before going on a ride, then enjoying the ride, and getting off it saying "Can we do that again!?"(well, not necesarily quite so articulated, but you get the idea.) Think on that.
No it's my turn to thank for the laugh. :D
I really like quoting people at themselves. ;)
Originally posted by Sailor Saturn

No offense, Beldin, but I'm certainly glad I'm not your SO. I don't want to be married to someone who puts so much importance on something as unimportant as sex.
No offense taken ! :)

But what gave you the idea that *I* was the one who puts so much importance on sex ? In my experience you can't really have sex (good sex that is) ALONE !
(: D No offense @Aegis. Touching your female side is something different ! :D ) !
My WIFE is just as sex-crazy as I am :cool: - If you choose to call a normal committed partnership "sex-crazy". :)

BTW - I like your way of discussing. It's much more fun than throwing "The Book" (Bible) at each other... :D

No worries,

Beldin :cool:
Proud driver and SLURRite Linkmaster of the Rolling Thunder ™

Famous Last Words:
"You can't kill me 'cause I've got magic armoraaaaargh !"
"They're only kobolds!"
So he kills kittens? Nothing to fear about that. (CM about Foul on SYM)
"Hey Beldin ! I don't like your face !"
"Nevermore."
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Beldin
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Post by Beldin »

Originally posted by fable

Reminds me of an old Viennese proverb: "Elsewhere, situations are serious but solvable. In Vienna, situations are unsolvable, but never serious." :)
LOL :D

@fable: Didn't you know that "compromise" was an Austrian invention ? :D ;)

AND - "situations are unsolvable, but never serious." sincerely reminds me of SYM (in general - and this thread in particular . ) ;) :cool:


No worries,

Beldin :cool:
Proud driver and SLURRite Linkmaster of the Rolling Thunder ™

Famous Last Words:
"You can't kill me 'cause I've got magic armoraaaaargh !"
"They're only kobolds!"
So he kills kittens? Nothing to fear about that. (CM about Foul on SYM)
"Hey Beldin ! I don't like your face !"
"Nevermore."
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