Warhammer

[frogus]

ahhh...the Games Workshop websites looking nice...
mmm I think the Tau look a bit mixed up. The stories sound a lot like Eldar, the miniatures look a lot like marines and a bit like Eldar...I don't know if there's really a niche for them at the moment, unless one of the other two races disappears. There is a tiny bit of Nekron about them as well though...have they made space skaven yet?
Also I wonder is there a correlation to be had somewhere in that everyone on here who plays Warhammer seems to be a painter rather than a gamer. Did you all find this site because og BGII? I did, so it could be in that somewhere...

[Gruntboy]

Good point. I guess were more "mature" ( ) as painters.

LMAO!

I was looking for BG sites in general (more for IWD). I guess BG2 turned up not long after I joined here.

[Aegis]

Originally posted by Kayless

The twins are a handful (I agree that no-one really comes close to Teclis). But Tyrion isn't quite the most powerful hero. Grimgor has taken him out mano-a-mano in a duel (the duel itself was the highlight of a great 5000 point battle I played).

what set of rules was this?

I ask this because with new Tyrion stat line (M18 (When on Malhandir)WS7, BS5, S3 (7 with Sunfang), T3, W4, A4 (Plus parry attack), I9, Ld10) and his magical equipment, and 4+ ward svae, and 1+ armour save (mixed with his 2+ ward save when he has one wound left) and his heart item that givs him back one wound after death. When comparing that to Grimgor, (please fill in stats for a good comparison) it seems overwhelming. Every match I have played using Tyrion, I have won, except one against Zacharias. Dirty basterd kept staying out of charge arc, and casting magic. Eventually my saves failed to keep up.

[Nippy]

While I cannot paint to save my life, I enjoyed Warhammer more than 40k, mainly because I've always enjoyed fighting with swords and axes...

I mainly used to read White Dwarf stories, or read the codexes...

[Kayless]

Originally posted by Aegis


what set of rules was this?

I ask this because with new Tyrion stat line (M18 (When on Malhandir)WS7, BS5, S3 (7 with Sunfang), T3, W4, A4 (Plus parry attack), I9, Ld10) and his magical equipment, and 4+ ward svae, and 1+ armour save (mixed with his 2+ ward save when he has one wound left) and his heart item that givs him back one wound after death. When comparing that to Grimgor, (please fill in stats for a good comparison) it seems overwhelming. Every match I have played using Tyrion, I have won, except one against Zacharias. Dirty basterd kept staying out of charge arc, and casting magic. Eventually my saves failed to keep up.

It was the latest set of rules (Grimgor wasn't even introduced prior to them). Here are his stats (see them and quiver ):

Grimgor Ironhide 600 points (400 for Grimgor, 200+ for his mandatory bodyguard unit)
M 4, WS 8, BS 2, S 5 (7 with his axe Gitsnik, additionally Grimgor always strikes first), T 5, W 3, I 5 (largely irrelevant though, since the afore mentioned axe lets Grimgor always strike first), A 5, Ld 9. 1+ Armor Save, 5+ Ward Save. Magic Resistance (1). Special Rules: Hates everyone, Awesome Fighter (adds +2 to the combat resolution. Enemies who break move 3D6 instead of their normal move due to fear). Grimgor is always accompanied by a unit of Black Orcs (minimum 9 but up to 10 more can be added at 13 points apiece). The Black Orcs are armed with choppas, heavy armor, and additional hand weapons, and have a musician, a standard bearer with the Blasted Banner (Grimgor's personal crest, making him and the entire unit stubborn). Like Grimgor, the Bodyguard unit hates everybody. Grimgor's Black Orc bodyguard is in addition to the one unit of Black Orcs normally allowed in an Orc army (so if Grimgor's leading your army you can get 2 units instead of 1!).

Simply put, Grimgor is a melee monster. 5 natural attacks (i.e. un-augmented with magic items) with a weapon skill of 8 make him superior to most adversaries, and his special rules (hating everyone and the aptly named Awesome Fighter ability) give him a great edge, even without taking into account his axe letting him always strike first, thus spoiling cavalry charges (Grimgor has torn through entire front ranks of knights in one round ). After years of run-of-mill orc heroes, Games Workshop has finally given greenskin players the warrior they've been dreaming of.

That said, when he dueled with Tyrion both were already a bit wounded and there was some lucky dice rolls.

[Aegis]

Well, Kayless, Tyrion has one attack up on Grimgor, thanks to his riposte special ability. Basically, I take one of your attacks that hit (which would be on a 4 for both of us) and I make it one of my attacks. In addition, Malhandir counts as being a Monsterous mount, has two attacks at WS4. Also, his Dragon armour of Aenarion, in addition to giving him a 1+ armour save, and 4+ ward save gives him magic resistence to fire. Also, Sunfang, his sword, gives him a bound spell, fury of Khaine at power level 6. You ain't getting past Tyrion, even with your goons. But, in the spirit of unti vs. unit, tyrion (in my case) is always accompanied by a unit of 14 (14! ) Dragon Princes, which are equiped with the Battle banner (+D6 combat resolution) see, my High Elves are a bunch of dirty whores.

[Kayless]

Originally posted by Aegis
in the spirit of unti vs. unit, tyrion (in my case) is always accompanied by a unit of 14 (14! ) Dragon Princes, which are equiped with the Battle banner (+D6 combat resolution) see, my High Elves are a bunch of dirty whores.

Ha! Grimgor wipes his ass with the banners of Dragon Knights! Besides, a group of Night Gobbos loaded with fanatics makes a nice buffer against such units (with some good rolls, 3 fanatics can inflict 13 or 14 strength 5 attacks (automatically hitting) with no saves. They can whittle down cavalry units fast). People have a tendency to underestimate greenskins (and it's not entirely unwarranted, since things like animosity and fanatics are hard to control), but if luck is with da' boyz, nothing can stop them! (Oh BTW, how many points does it cost to field Tyrion anyway?)

Originally posted by Aegis
You ain't getting past Tyrion, even with your goons.

LOL These kind of rivalries are why I love Warhammer. Hero vs. Hero, quality troops against teeming masses... Of course, the real magic happens when something unpredictable happens (bad dice rolls, a lucky artillery shot, etc.) and you have improvise tactics on the fly.

All silly posturing aside, these things are impossible to resolve outside the battlefield, and even then the whims of the dice gods tend to determine the outcome (which is why I make daily sacrifices to them, along with Gork and Mork). It's too bad they don't have a good online version of Warhammer Fantasy Battle. It'd be great to play you, or the other SYM guys.

[Kayless]

Why I love fanatics: A not-so-brief dissertation

Since I mentioned fanatics in my last post, I just want to explain why I LOVE these psychotic little gobbos! (I’m going to try and make this decipherable to the layman as well, so bear with me) Say for example I have a unit of thirty night goblins stationed next to Grimgor’s band (or another important unit) as a bodyguard. They are eventually approached by an overzealous group of 14 Dragon Knights plus a hero (or a unit of Knights of the White Wolf, Chaos Knights, etc.) who think they can take out ol’ Grimmy. BANG! Out pop the Mad Mushroom eating gobbos (as soon as the knights get within 8 inches they’re automatically stopped as the fanatics do their thing). Now I’ll actually roll some dice (fanatics have a movement of 2D6 inches) as an example...

All right, one fanatic goes 8 inches (just enough to make contact with the knights), another goes only 5 (stalling in between the three units), and the last goes 11. The two fanatics who hit now get to attack (D6 for each). Okay I rolled a 9 (a five and a four, respectively. Not bad). Assuming the knights have an "average" toughness of 3, then the fanatics need only roll a 2+ (in other words, anything but a 1) in order to wound (even if they have a toughness of 4 it’s still an easy 3+ to wound). Okay, I now roll my 9 dice to wound: Bingo, nothing lower than a 3. All 9 have wounded, and (since fanatics allow no saving throw) all 9 are dead. Presto! From 15 to 6 in a millisecond. Not only have the fanatics done considerable damage but they’ve also halted the knights in their tracks (if it wasn’t for that damn fanatic stalled in front of them, Grimgor’s unit could charge them in return).

But wait it gets better! Now it’s the greenskins’ turn (since the fanatics were released during the knights' turn) and the fanatics get to move again! I roll the scatter dice to see which way they go: Alright, the stalling unit has decided to stay put (forcing anyone who wants to charge to go through him, suffering casualties. Not a smart move), the 11 incher twirls off into the middle of nowhere, and the 8 incher shrewdly decides to have another go at the knights (moving 7 inches straight through the front rank). Rolling again for number of attacks: A slightly disappointing 3. Rolling to wound: All fours. Outcome: 3 more knights are dead, bringing them down to just 3 units (two knights plus their hero). Hmmm, I likey.

Of course there is no "standard" fanatic performance. Imagine if you will, if all three fanatics had hit their mark and left the way clear for Grimgor’s unit to charge in the subsequent turn. Or conversely, none could have reached the knights (and even worse, turned back and struck Grimgor’s unit or the night goblins next turn ). They’re powerful, they’re unpredictable, and they’re quintessentially greenskin. That’s why I love the buggers!

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the fanatics have inflicted so much damage that they envoke a panic test (just as though the knights had taken damage from missle fire). Icing on the proverbial cake.

I should also note that the above example assumes the knights were not yet going to charge the orcs (otherwise they would move into combat after taking damage). I did this because the situation was even further stacked in the goblins' favor (quite resoundingly), since the knights would have charged into that stalled fanatic and taken even more damage then before!

[Aegis]

well, your points are fine, Kayless, except you forgot a few things. Namely, you forgot my little ability to attack back, and that the high initiative of the High elves would strike before the fanatics. Also, I would never do something as blatent as attack head on using Dragon Princes and Tyrion. With a resounding 18 movement points, I could easily flank you. Also, with Tyrion at the head, and a battle banner, it wouldn't matter how much you won combat by.

Say the 14, plus hero unti (tyrion for all intents and purposes) and your two fanatics attack. They cause nine deaths. So, thats nine points to you. I still out number you, so thats eight. In addition, I have rank bonus of +3, so thats five. In addition, I have a chmapion, musician, and standerd bearer, for another +3. That brings you down to two victory points. After that, I have the benefit of my own attacks (odds are killing both, at least wounding/killing one). That gives me an additional one at least, bringing you down to 1 victory point. Now, I know your saying I still have to take a panic test, because I lost more than 50% of unit. Wrong! Dragon Princes are Stoic, thus immune to panic tests. I then invoke the power of the Battle Banner (+D6 victory points for combat res.) which means I just evened up the combat res, making it a draw. Also, the odds are I will role a 3 on the D6, so that allows me to win combat by two, thus forcing you to make a leadership test, at negative two, for a test of 5, I believe.

[Kayless]

Originally posted by Aegis
well, your points are fine, Kayless, except you forgot a few things. Namely, you forgot my little ability to attack back, and that the high initiative of the High elves would strike before the fanatics. Also, I would never do something as blatent as attack head on using Dragon Princes and Tyrion. With a resounding 18 movement points, I could easily flank you. Also, with Tyrion at the head, and a battle banner, it wouldn't matter how much you won combat by.

Ah, not quite, my esteemed colleague. For you see, and I quote:

“Fanatics don’t fight in close combat at all. Instead they cause terrible carnage as they whirl through their target. They cannot be attacked in close combat. The only way to kill a Fanatic is to shoot him, fry him with magic, or wait for him to collapse from exhaustion.”

So you see, Fanatics aren't part of hand-to-hand. They're meant to widdle down units before actual combat takes place (and they're damn good at it). The only thing a unit hit by Fanatics can do is take it (and try to frag the buggers with archers in their next turn). Also, it doesn't matter what angle you come at (for flanking, etc.). As soon as any unit gets within 8 inches BANG the fanatics come out. Great security, eh? The thing that balances the little buggers is their propensity to come back and whack the orc player’s own units in the face!

[Aegis]

First, it's whittle, not widdle.

Now, okay, maybe close combat doesn't work, but I'd still win combat, causing you to flee (Any hand to hand combat is subject to combat resolution, and yes fanatics are privvy to this rule). Besides, keep in mind no self respecting High Elf player would go into a battle with the awesome magic they have. Anyway, I would never allow things like that to roam around willy-nilly.

[Kayless]

Originally posted by Aegis
First, it's whittle, not widdle.

Huh? Whyfore u goin’ a correctin’ me?

Originally posted by Aegis
Now, okay, maybe close combat doesn't work, but I'd still win combat, causing you to flee (Any hand to hand combat is subject to combat resolution, and yes fanatics are privvy to this rule).

The thing is, Fanatics don't particpate in hand-to-hand. Best to think of them as wild missles rather than troops. Again I quote: "Unbreakable: Fanatics are unbreakable and cannot be beaten (or even fought) in close combat." Fanatics are immune to all psychology (they're too stoned to think straight) and they aren't even worth victory points. The only thing you can do is pray and get out of the way!

Originally posted by Aegis
Besides, keep in mind no self respecting High Elf player would go into a battle with the awesome magic they have. Anyway, I would never allow things like that to roam around willy-nilly.

Easier said then done. The best orc players field tons of these freaks. You have your work cut out for you trying to kill em all.

[Aegis]

Okay, you should've said unbreakable in the begining

Anyway, let's se how you fare against multiple flames of the pheonix, fury of khaines, and other powers in my vast repetoire.

[Kayless]

Yeah, magicy crap is where the high elves excel. As Sun Tzu once said “If a battle can’t be won, don’t fight it.” The first things one learns when fighting High Elves is #1. Don’t try to outshoot them, and #2. Don’t try to outdo them in magic. Most battles I’ve played feature players each maximizing what their army does best and hoping it’s enough to beat what the other guy’s army does best.

[Aegis]

Well, becuase of the new rules, the High Elves do more than excel in just magic and shooting (though, the Repeater Bolt Thrower is a nasty surprise, automatic D3 wounds at strength 8 ) Their weapon skill fore core troops is 4, and specials are upwards to 5. The lord has 7 natural! Their biggest downfall is Toughness, but to even hit them, thats the challenge.

[Kayless]

Originally posted by Aegis
Their biggest downfall is Toughness, but to even hit them, thats the challenge.

They’re kind of like anti-orcs in that respect, since the rank (standard orcs) have p*ss poor Weapon Skill but great Toughness. Of course dwarves have both, but who wants to play stunties?.

[Kayless]

The Giant: Friend to You and Me (as long as he isn't jumping on you)

Ah, more musings on orcy units... Giants are a nice unit, albeit mired by some serious disadvantages. For one thing you might as well paint a bull’s-eye on his chest, since every war machine the enemy has will be aimed squarely at him. There is a good side to this though, since if the enemy is shooting at your giant they’re not shooting at anything else. Also, the giant while powerful, isn't quite up to par when compared to other big monsters in the game (such as dragons and the like). So in all likelihood, your giant will get whacked long before he even gets near the enemy. But if through some miracle he does get into combat, the fun never stops! The giant has an assortment of cool abilities that make him quite useful, but one stands foremost among these.

Jump up and Down: This is the reason I occasionally include a giant in my armies. It’s risky (roll a 1 and you’re Gulliver getting swarmed by Lilliputians) but if your gamble pays off then it’s squish time baby! (it makes a nice companion piece to a shaman who casts Gork’s Warpath) The jumping giant does 2D6 strength 6 hits allocated as shooting hits (it’s like two supped-up fanatics in one! ) to the unit he’s introducing his bunions to, and can really hurt infantry units. The main reason to use Jump Up and Down is because it's damn fun! The slight downside to this is that the giant is so giddy about mashing troops in-between his toes that it is impossible to get him to stop (until either he does a face plant, or everyone becomes a permanent addition to the sidewalk). Of course, when these bad boys do fall down they cause some serious real-estate damage. Any model under the Falling Giant template suffers a strength 6 hit that causes D3 wounds. As for the other abilities...

Yell and Bawl: A nice little tool to have at one’s disposal. The giant automatically wins combat (no one can fight) and the enemy must take a break test with a –2 modifier. It’s a nice way to annoy superior units.
Swing with Club: The “safe” (i.e. wussy ) way to attack with a giant. D6 strength 6 hits ain’t bad, but it’s no Jump up and Down.
Thump with Club: If the target fails an initiative test it takes 2D6 wounds with no armor save allowed (if you roll a double the club embeds itself in the ground and the giant cannot attack next round). This would be a really nice ability if the majority of the heroes in the game (who you would want to use this against) didn’t have such high initiatives. Still, if you get lucky you’ll put your victim in serious pain.
’Eadbutt: An automatic 1 wound, no saves allowed (if the victim isn’t killed, he is dazed next round and can’t attack). This is a nice safe way to do damage, but if you wanted to do things the nice and safe way why’d you bring along a giant (or even play orcs and goblins for that matter)?
Pick Up and…: The giant grabs a model (they get the chance to make a single attack: if they can wound, they’re safe) and does something unpleasant to them: 1. Stuffing them in a bag (they can be rescued if the giant is killed), 2. Throwing them into combat (automatic wound for the living missile and D6 strength 3 hits on everybody else), 3. Hurl (similar to Throw back into combat but against other units), 4. Squash (hehehe the model is dead and let’s leave it at that ), 5. Eat (ditto ), and 6. Pick Another (the first dude is treated as being Stuffed in the Bag as the Giant tries to grab someone else. If you roll a succession of sixes you can amass quite a collection). Suffice to say, this ability is fun but very unpredictable (and thus unreliable in serious combat).

So there you have it. Our friend the giant has some really cool abilities, but you'll be lucky to ever see them in action since your opponent will probably down the big lug in the second turn. Just watchout when he dies (TIMBER!)

[Aegis]

I actually respect giants more then most other monsterous creatures. Though, I usually just use my twin bolt throwers to kill those things, and leave the rest of my fireing to other things.

[Robnark]

@His Frogness (yes it's a bit late, but i was legless last night and decided against visiting the forums)

Tau are actually like a young race similar to the eldar in general ethos - a couple of quotes in the codex support that general idea - but they do fulfill a truly unexplored gaming niche, as they are the only army in a sci-fi universe that almost exclusively concentrate on ranged power at the expense of close combat prowess (apart fom some specialised mercenaries).

and they have the most powerful gun in all of 40k, so don't mess

[Kayless]

Anybody see the Mines of Moria terrain on the Games Workshop page? Damn! I want, I want! You know, if I were a rich fellow with plenty of extra time on my hands I’d probably make stuff like that myself. As it stands I just get sit and wallow with envy. It must be awesome to actually get to play games with such bad ass scenery.