Q&A on Islam

[CM]

What no more questions?
Don't be PC, if you have any questions ask away.

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by CM
@SS

He is correct that the surah (chapter) refers to peace once. But logically why would a chapter devoted to the rules and conduct of war and its spoils, discuss peace? Now the surah states in many if not all places, that this is applied to a battlefield against Unbelievers. So if Pakistan went to war with china or India – for they are according to us unbelievers, then yes this surah is relevant and is justification. However in the case of Jews and Christians this surah provides no justification at all.

The Quran is not a very organized book, it flows from one subject to another with each verse. Just quoting 2 or 3 verses from one surah doesn’t mean it is a complete justification, the context and where it is written is also important, as the verses before and after provide insight to how they should be interpreted and implemented.

I agree that it's logical that a surah devoted to the rules and conduct of war and it's spoils wouldn't have much to say about peace. Of course, my professor isn't very good with logic. I must say that I'm honestly surprised that this surah isn't applicable against Chrisitans and Jews, but that probably comes from having learned stuff from biased sources in the past.

From what I've seen, it's a common thing in many religions, including Christianity, to take scriptures out of context so that it appears they're saying one thing when they're actually, when in context, saying something very different.

I have some other questions, but it's 7AM and I can't think straight enough to remember them. If I recall them later, I'll post them.

[fable]

@CM, what sort of background in classical secular Arabic literature are kids given these days when in school? Do they learn of al-Hamadhani, al-Jahiz, al-Faraj, etc? Do they actually read assigned texts by these great authors and others? I realize you can't speak for many on something like this, but maybe you have an idea how much of enormous span of great Arabic literature is taught in modern schools. Damn little is available in English, though what little I've seen and read is very impressive.

[EMINEM]

Thank's for your response!

A few clarifications, if you don't mind. You wrote that there are no Muslim critics of the Koran, and that those who question the legitimacy and/or authority of the book are declared non-Muslim and targeted (like Rushdie, who by the way is atheistic) or beaten up for doing so, like the professor from Al-azhar university who stated the Koran was a pack of lies - an act that apparently met with your approval. Are the reasons for the dearth of critics based on the fear of retribution?

[CM]

@Fable honestly I can not say.
I was educated educated in the International American school system.
When i was in Pakistan, that is the only time i learnt about Islam and islamic history as such.
I can not say what other nations teach, as i would not have a clue.
Out of the three you have mentioned I only know of 2.
In this respect you know far more than me!

Al-Hamdani - as in the poet?
Al-Jahiz - as in the book of animals?
Yes those two we have studied in Pakistan.
The third I have not heard of.

The arab nations might teach about them and their literature, but i would not have a clue.

Damn little is available in English, though what little I've seen and read is very impressive.

I would be very interested in anything you have which is in english.
If you could, could me pm the titles books you have read in english?

@M'n'M.
The logic behind there being no cricticism is that we believe the Quran to be the will and words of God. How can we criticise that?
I didn't know Rushdie was an atheist.
Anyway as for your question i don't know if i can answer that.
That would depend on person to person would it not?

[fable]

@CM, I should be hitting a local library this weekend which has a great little anthology I've read, before. I'll get back with you--and maybe post an excerpt or two from it.

[CM]

Originally posted by fable
@CM, I should be hitting a local library this weekend which has a great little anthology I've read, before. I'll get back with you--and maybe post an excerpt or two from it.

Excellent fable thanks alot.
And i will see if i can get a book:

here is one i should have mentioned before:

Islam: Second Edition by Fazl-ur-Rahman University of Chicago Press.
It was first published in the 1960's.
So it is very defensive in its script.
Another thing is that it is an excellent beginner for those who have had very little interaction with the islamic world.
It covers everything from the Quran, to islamic law, to philiosphy to culture.
It is very good.

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by CM
@M'n'M.
The logic behind there being no cricticism is that we believe the Quran to be the will and words of God. How can we criticise that?
I didn't know Rushdie was an atheist.
Anyway as for your question i don't know if i can answer that.
That would depend on person to person would it not?

I'm gonna give a quick little bit of information for comparison purposes, as I'm curious about what MM is asking and I'm not sure I understand our answers.

In Christianity(excluding some of the extreme fundamentalists), we are taught to question that which pastors, teachers, etc. say and to critically read what the Bible says. This is for the purpose of strengthening our belief and preventing us from being led astray by those who would pervert the Word of God. What is meant by question and critically read is that if you read/hear something that doesn't make sense to you, or doesn't seem quite right, then do some research about it and ask other people's opinions/interpretations. Also, say you sit through a worship service and the pastor says something in his sermon you don't agree with or you think doesn't sound right, you go up to him after the service and ask him about it.

In Islam, are you allowed to do this?

Note: While I do not really agree with the violent 'retaliation,' I do understand the angry feelings that come from someone stating that what you believe is false. However, there is a difference between going around spouting that a belief is a bunch of BS and questioning your interpretation of something you read/heard. That is what I'm asking about, and I think MM might have been asking about, though only he knows for sure what he was asking about.

[EMINEM]

What she said.



Edited: 'Sort of.

[CM]

Take Islam as a discipline.
Once you enter, you believe it completely and utterly or you don't.
It is a way of life, you can't pick and choose what you believe and what you want to implement.
Take it as the military.
Once you enter, you follow it completely, in the US military you can't speak out against your superior's orders or you can't go against them.
Islam it is very similar.

Question the religion itself and question what some one says are 2 different things.
Questioning what a person says, is normal.
As no two people see the same thing the same way, thus you can check up and see what the other person says.
You can't question the religion and what it says at all.
Again how can mere mortals find fault and question what is written by Allah.

What is meant by question and critically read is that if you read/hear something that doesn't make sense to you, or doesn't seem quite right, then do some research about it and ask other people's opinions/interpretations. Also, say you sit through a worship service and the pastor says something in his sermon you don't agree with or you think doesn't sound right, you go up to him after the service and ask him about it.

That we can do, and people actively do that by questioning people from say the Jamaat-i-Islami in Pakistan etc.
Which just of added info is the largest Islamic party in Pakistan but has never won more than 4% vote in any election for the past 55 years.
That is all allowed.
But you can't not question what is written in the Quran.
Hope that helps.

Now M'n'M what is that you wish to ask?

Oh yeah SS and M'n'M.
If he says it is false, most peopel would accept it.
But calling it a pack of lies is quite different.
And yes i agree with the actions.

[Mr Sleep]

Do you think that Islam has been made somewhat more glamourus by famous people taking up the faith? Do you see this as a good thing or are they perhaps diluting the message?

[CM]

Sleep, i personally believe religion is a personal thing and that it should be taken up or given more of a spot light just because a famous person takes it up.
Take Bhuddism and Richard gere, though he may be bhuddist, i see him as the exact opposite of bhuddism.

Would it help Islam?
Mohammad Ali - Cashus (sp??) Clay - took it up, i don't think it made much of an impact.

If people want to learn about Islam i don't believe it should be because their favorite rock star, or actor is muslim.

Just to add a tidbit of Gossip, some muslims - mainly the women - think the reason Diana was whacked was because she was pregnant with whatshisface's child, which would be muslim.

[Mr Sleep]

Originally posted by CM
Sleep, i personally believe religion is a personal thing and that it should be taken up or given more of a spot light just because a famous person takes it up.
Take Bhuddism and Richard gere, though he may be bhuddist, i see him as the exact opposite of bhuddism.

Would it help Islam?
Mohammad Ali - Cashus (sp??) Clay - took it up, i don't think it made much of an impact.

If people want to learn about Islam i don't believe it should be because their favorite rock star, or actor is muslim.

Just to add a tidbit of Gossip, some muslims - mainly the women - think the reason Diana was whacked was because she was pregnant with whatshisface's child, which would be muslim.

Cassius Really? i notice that there are a great deal of famous black people now ascribed to Islam, i am not complaining it just occurs to me that their Role Models (ergo Ali/Clay) are Islamic so maybe they follow a trend rather than it being personel. So do you think that they are as much part of the same religion if they have done it for purely star worship reasons?

Dodi Fayed(sp?), an interesting titbit indeed, it isn't exactly impossible....a little worrying though

[CM]

Originally posted by Mr Sleep


Cassius Really? i notice that there are a great deal of famous black people now ascribed to Islam, i am not complaining it just occurs to me that their Role Models (ergo Ali/Clay) are Islamic so maybe they follow a trend rather than it being personel. So do you think that they are as much part of the same religion if they have done it for purely star worship reasons?

Dodi Fayed(sp?), an interesting titbit indeed, it isn't exactly impossible....a little worrying though

Sleep i wouldn't question their islamic beliefs, but rather i would question their desire to be muslims.
If they want to be muslim just because Ali, was a muslim, well that is something that i don't agree with.
But if they do become muslim and do follow it properly i won't hold it against them.
But if they joined because of their wish to be like Ali, and then leave because something hipper comes along then, yes i do believe it is wrong.
But i will not question if they are true muslims or not.

So his name is dodi - i thought i was using the wrong name, but i wouldn't put too much emphasis on that gossip.
I don't believe it but i don't dis-believe it either.

[EMINEM]

So the reason Muslims believe the Koran to be the word of God is because it says it is? Are there no other reasons? What makes the Koran special among other Islamic religious texts?

[Mr Sleep]

Originally posted by CM
Sleep i wouldn't question their islamic beliefs, but rather i would question their desire to be muslims.
If they want to be muslim just because Ali, was a muslim, well that is something that i don't agree with.
But if they do become muslim and do follow it properly i won't hold it against them.
But if they joined because of their wish to be like Ali, and then leave because something hipper comes along then, yes i do believe it is wrong.
But i will not question if they are true muslims or not.

So his name is dodi - i thought i was using the wrong name, but i wouldn't put too much emphasis on that gossip.
I don't believe it but i don't dis-believe it either.

Understood, that was my thinking as well I have heard only bad things about Islam in the past, thankyou for sharing some of the better things

What was your opinion of the movie with Denzel Washington in it a few years back (called The Seige i think) was that an accurate representation, i know it created a lot of controversy.

Oh no, it is probably nonesense, but interesting none the less

[CM]

Yes, M'n'M to my knowledge that the Quran says so.
I will also get my friends to answer this question as well.

M'n'M the Quran is the Holy Book of Islam.
It is just like the bible.
Plus we have no other religious books in islam.
We have books which describe the quran and have sayings of the Prophet.
But none is as old or as solid as the Quran.
The Quran has not been changed - not a single word has been changed since the time of the Prophet.

Sleep i haven't seen the seige.
It was the movie where muslims take over NYC right??

[C Elegans]

Thank you for answering my questions, CM.

1. Taking pictures of women: In the Emirates I noticed nothing of this, it was in Morocco and Algeria I was told that one shouldn't take photos of women. So obviously this is a cultural things, perhaps specific to Northern Africa. (Somebody knows about Egypt or Tunisia?)

Originally posted by CM
2. Sunni and Shia?
Now that is a PHD thesis paper if you want to know the differences, why they happened etc.
To make my job easier, tell me what you know and i will fill in the gaps.
I will provide a general overall summary of the major differences – which aren’t major in my opinion.
And you should read the following book: Actually all those who want an introductory course in Islam should read this book.
It was written back in the 1960‘s and does a very good job on explaining the religion to those who aren’t muslims, or those who haven’t lived in the region.

Which book? I'd be interested to put it on my "to read" list Now, I realise the shia and sunni issue is a very complicated one, this is what I know, in brief:
In Sunni, Ali who was cousin with Mohammed and also married to Mohammed's daugher Fatima, is regardes as the 4th and last caliph and leader of the muslims. In Shia, Ali is viewed as the 1st caliph, and his (and Mohammeds) line did not die out but their spiritual power was tranferred to the Imams. So in Shia the Imam is a holy person with special spritual characteristics, god-like and perfect like the pharaos in ancient Egypt, whereas Sunni does not have this view of the Imams.

It is also my understanding (perhaps erranous) that Shia focuses more on martyrdom, suffering and punishment than Sunni. I view Shia as more similar to the christian catholic church (organised clergy, the pope/the imam, focus on suffering of Christ/Ali) whereas Sunni is more similar to christian protestanticm (less organised, many independand smaller churches/organisations).

I also know there are some practical differences such as differences in prayer and other customs. But I wonder whether cultural differences makes a larger individual difference between muslims than Shia and Sunni does?

3. Regarding science: As a non-religious person, I see many similarities between the world's two large monotheistic religions islam and christianity, especially when putting them at the same time scale (ie considering islam is about 600 years younger and viewing how the religions have developed in society). One of the major differences I see though is the IMO "anti-intellectual" and "anti-scientific" forces in the history of christiany (flat earth, geocentric solar system, anti-evolution), whereas in islam I don't see a parallell to this. Christianity has had many clashes with science, this doesn't seem to be the case in islam, which I find interesting.

Now i read somewhere that scientists believe or have confirmed that there are pain receptors in the skin and not just in the brain.

An out-of-topic nitpick: It is well confirmed that we have lots of pain receptors in the skin, they are called nociceptors. We have no pain receptors at all in the brain, but the brain interprets the signals coming from the pain receptors.

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by C Elegans
Thank you for answering my questions, CM.

1. Taking pictures of women: In the Emirates I noticed nothing of this, it was in Morocco and Algeria I was told that one shouldn't take photos of women. So obviously this is a cultural things, perhaps specific to Northern Africa. (Somebody knows about Egypt or Tunisia?)

Don't know about Tunisia, but in the documentary thing we watched in my Intercultural Communication class, there was one point where they were showing wedding pictures of the mother&father of the lady doing the documentary, and they were all Egyptian.

[Sailor Saturn]

Originally posted by C Elegans
flat earth

Just a quick Q; didn't this idea come out of Greece?

While I agree that "anti-scientific" applies to the [mostly extreme] fundamentalist Christians, I would say "anti-intellectual" does not apply to Christians, except perhaps solely to the Roman Catholic Church during the Dark Ages.

I see "Anti-Intellectual" suggesting they have something against learning, which brings me to a question I have. In the documentary thing I watched that was about some muslims in Egypt, the girls were discouraged from learning and persuing their goals. Is this another of the cultural things limited to Egypt(and possibly the surrounding areas)? Or is this common in Islamic Countries? Are women allowed to be religious leaders?

IIRC, it was earlier mentioned about the more-than-one-wife thing that the husband couldn't sleep with more than one of his wives at the same time. I'm not sure I understand the reason for this. Could you possibly elaborate? What would happen if a man was caught sleeping with more than one of his wives at the same time?