Finger Pointing at the USA (sorry)

Un-Maimed · Post by **Un-Maimed** » Wed Apr 10, 2002 12:22 am

I know this may stir some harsh remarks from those with an American flag tattooed onto their heart but - please listen-

To all those who are realising that the earth is warming up - we have a problem coupled with it - the big hole in the Ozone layer. It sits above the antartica letting in more radiation than we really need. This doesnt effect about 90% of the population of our planet as the radiation is generally absorbed by the time it reaches the more heavily populated northern hemisphere. The big problem is in little old New Zealand- our cancer rates are rocketting - u get sun burnt on 20 degree centigrade days..... (and thats not just those who never see the sun).......

heres what Im getting at - Someone is doing this to our country and so serious finger pointing has been done. To all those who reside in the USA - you loverly governmeny purchases "pollution allotments" off Russia. These are pollutant levels that governments are not taxed on. Fair enough - a sound business move BUT!!!! Because of the general wind movements, most pollutants that are released from the USA end up over the antartic. (the south pole)... this means the hole is being opened up by the equivilent of Russias and USA's combined pollution allowances.

Why this isnt public knowledge - BECAUSE IT DOESNT EFFECT THOSE WHO CREATE THE PROBLEM!! If uve been to NZ, its a forgotten paradise. Its now being disrupted by something that souldnt be happening.

This isnt a moan or ***** - this is saying "hey everyone, look at what is happening"

why?? - an open mind is the only one worth having. Look outside your room and realise that u can help with someone elses problem. Even if its just by acknowledging it exists........... Thanks for reading this......

Mr Flibble · Post by **Mr Flibble** » Wed Apr 10, 2002 12:40 am

I second this. Just because we're small doesn't mean we can be ignored. Stop messing up our hemisphere!

Kameleon · Post by **Kameleon** » Wed Apr 10, 2002 1:29 am

I agree that this is an extrememly serious point, but unless Weasel has some serious connections in the White House, or he manages to take over the world...

...hang on a minute. Maybe he has. New question: Is Weasel George W. Bush???

This doesnt effect about 90% of the population of our planet as the radiation is generally absorbed by the time it reaches the more heavily populated northern hemisphere. The big problem is in little old New Zealand

I didn't actually know about that fact, so thanks for bringing it up. (I'm in England, so any change in weather is usually very much welcomed, especially if it stops raining) I'm not sure that we can help all that much apart from to offer sympathy towards New Zealanders - your country is beautiful and I would hate to see it spoiled. Protest? Protests never solved anything apart from peopple's feelings of inadequacy, and if someone who is in a position to do anything is reading this, everyone here is a Secret Service agent too. The problem is that global warming has now escalated into being almost unstoppable - what with the forests disappearing in South America, pollution all over the world (it's not just the US you know, we all do it), and the fact that people now will not be alive when the big consequences visit the Earth, I'm not hugely optimistic about anything being done.

CM · Post by CM » Wed Apr 10, 2002 1:53 am

Yeah...what you said, the third also gets screwed in this manner, that they can sell pollution quota's (something along those lines), and the toxic waste gets dumped in their country, while the fat cats get rich.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Wed Apr 10, 2002 6:25 am

Can you imagine the fuss there would be if in the next LOTR movie, all of the fellowship get progressively more sunburnt as the film progresses?

On a more serious note, it is kind of a drag being in the part of the southern hemisphere that has the ozone depletion and hence being the ones who have to put up with the results of other countries' mess.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Wed Apr 10, 2002 6:42 am

I love pollution

Makes you strong. If you don't get some germs in you you'll succumb the first time you get them when you're older. Look at farm boys when they go to the city.

Bring on the fumes and smog! Yeah Baby!

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Apr 10, 2002 7:15 am

Guys, this subject was started as a serious thread. Let's keep it that way.

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Wed Apr 10, 2002 7:26 am

We call this phenomenon "NIMBY" or Not In My BackYard.

It doesn't affect us directly, so the nation that is responsible for more pollution, CFCs, greenhouse emmissions and garbage doesn't see it as a problem.

We also have this obsession with money. Why do you think Dubya pulled out of the Kyoto agreements? Because his buddies in Big Business think it will cost them money to reduce their pollutant output.

Maybe you should send a bunch of Anzacs over here to become citizens and vote as a bloc. That way you could push your agenda like other special interests.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Wed Apr 10, 2002 7:54 am

Fable, that is my way of saying "I don't care". Its not completely off-topic spam about uteruses or post counts. If I just posted "I don't care" it wouldn't be half as funny would it?

I just get tired of the USA-bashing. The original poster hasn't exactly made a firm, commited, sensible and unbiased cogent argument here. He's posted his opinion just to get another kick in then run off.

I don't think you can sum up world pollution in a couple of paragraphs.

I think the real problem here is cows. Cows produce a horrendous (quite literally) amount of greenhouse gas - methane. Now the underlying problem is obviously mass-production farming methods and population over-growth. But at the end of the day the final output is methane gas.

When are people going to get a sense of History and our own insignificance? Does anyone really care about one post on a web forum? The PC this guy used to post that comment is connected to a power plug which has a huge electricity plant at the end of it.

I'm off to live in the mountains and sit out the impending destruction of the planet. Like I care. See ya in hell!

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Wed Apr 10, 2002 9:44 am

how did you get to be a mod grunt?

but I agree with the insignificance thing, and unless U-M really does go and live in the mountains in a shack and stop driving a car and using electricity, I think he has no right to blame anyone for pollution. Even if the ammount he causes is tiny...and he especially has no right to blame an entire country. Another interesting point is the relative insignificance of the temperature change on a long term scale...I will attached a couple of pictures to help you see this...

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Wed Apr 10, 2002 9:45 am

and here's the other one...

VoodooDali · Post by **VoodooDali** » Wed Apr 10, 2002 10:04 am

I do feel bad about our pollution. The Canadians suffer from our acid rain, etc.

When I lived in Texas, the hole in the ozone was affecting people there--so this is not something Dubya is unaware of personally. And didn't Dubya recently have some skin cancer removed from his face? In Texas, they have to give a UV ray warning on the weather every day. A lot of days, you are told to try to stay inside between certain hours in the afternoon. I can only imagine how much worse it is in Australia and NZ.

Maybe CE can help out with the science here, but I don't agree that a "little" change is nothing to worry about. If any of you have ever owned a fish tank, you have hand's on experience with the fact that a little change in temperature or Ph or whatever can kill all your fish. Even with our own bodies, a little change (e.g. a 5 degree temperature change) can kill us.

Actually, I'm more concerned about greenhouse gases lately. I'm really tempted to key every SUV I see. I cannot understand why every other American feels the need to drive one of these monstrosities. (And the ones that do usually drive like *******s)
They get absolutely horrible mileage and have brought us back to the 1960's in terms of emissions.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Apr 10, 2002 11:00 am

Guys, I'm going to start deleting posts, now, that aren't pertinent to this thread, beginning with an exchange of about eight posts that preceded mine. If you disagree with this, PM Buck. Thanks.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Wed Apr 10, 2002 3:25 pm

I'd gladly participate in a discussion about pollution, and I agree with Voodoo that changes that might seem insignificant may cause devastating effects. Not on all life on earth, life on earth have survived many natural catastrophies that the human species would never have lived through - but I assume that most of us care also about the human species and currently present ecosystems, not only about life in general.

posted by Frogus
how did you get to be a mod grunt?

@Frogus, Gruntboy is not a moderator of the SYM forum, he is a mod of the Icewind dale forum. When Grunt posts at SYM he is an ordinary poster like you and me, only Sleep, T'lainya and Fable are mods here (and Buck of course).

posted by Gruntboy

I just get tired of the USA-bashing. The original poster hasn't exactly made a firm, commited, sensible and unbiased cogent argument here. He's posted his opinion just to get another kick in then run off.

Grunt, I know you are very sensitive to any critisism of the US. Still, there is no reason to make the above assumptions of the relavely new poster Un-Maimed. Instead of being sarcastic, I suggest you ask UM for references that support the content of his post.

@Fable: I will post stuff relevant to the topic later, if anyone is interested in discussing pollution and the effect of greenhouse gases. You are welcome to remove the parts of this posts that are not relevant for the topic.

Nightmare · Post by **Nightmare** » Wed Apr 10, 2002 4:33 pm

Maybe CE can help out with the science here, but I don't agree that a "little" change is nothing to worry about. If any of you have ever owned a fish tank, you have hand's on experience with the fact that a little change in temperature or Ph or whatever can kill all your fish. Even with our own bodies, a little change (e.g. a 5 degree temperature change) can kill us.

A difference of a few degrees ended the ice age...

Un-Maimed · Post by **Un-Maimed** » Wed Apr 10, 2002 7:04 pm

Hello again everyone - since there has been a few replys to this post Im quessing its grabbed the attention of a few....

Let me just remind you all that the threads point was to open your eyes a bit - it never hurts to know that a countries industry doesnt always just affect the originating country. As for this thread being typed on a PC attached to a big hulking powerplant spewing out pollutants every where - FYI most of NZ's power is generated through hydro plants, and for those who suggested I go and live in the mountains with no power/nothing that pollutes - you all know that is just not practical. BUT THATS NOT WHAT IM GETTING AT!!

Any pollutants Nzers generate. We deal with, the wind swirls take our air over to the hole... The point of the post was to state that the pollutants generated in the area of the USA also end up there.

Once again I say - the point of this thread is to generate a little awareness. The more people are aware, the more likely one of them will be in a position to do something.

so if you have anything to add (for or against), I welcome it. Please just make sure that its constructive. @gruntboy, yes that was constructive (serious). If you dont care about the problem thats fine (the finger pointing was at the place not you). Maybe it even makes my point stronger..........

Aragorn Returns · Post by **Aragorn Returns** » Wed Apr 10, 2002 7:06 pm

just read the whole thing please.

[/i]

originally posted by mr. flibble
Just because we're small doesn't mean we can be ignored

see, this is where the problem is. i don't think that the issue right now is about stopping polution, you know why? because we don't see any affects of pollution. the only people seeing the effects are the people we ignore. and here's a fact for you, you're gonna be ignored if you're little (by little i mean unimportant, i'm not bashing short people), always.

i happen to agree with what gruntdog is saying about the US bashing. i understand un-maimed plea for help, but i think that his first sentence could be offensive. i mean, what i got out of that was basically that un-maimed thinks that it's all the U.S.'s fault for the pollution problem, that the U.S. doesn't give a **** about anybody else, and that un-maimed doesn't respect american patriotism or nationalism.
now i understand where this comes from, a lot of this could be the U.S.'s fault, a lot of people in the U.S. don't really give a **** about anybody else, and i think that a lot of the patriotism that some americans have are not because of love for their country, but because they are venting or there is something else they hate, i think a lot of the "patriotism" that followed after 9/11 was not because they love the U.S. or even because they felt sorry for the people who suffered loses, i think a lot of it was simply because of hate they have that they want to take out on others, companies have done patriotic things to sell their products, and tons of people have done stuff just to hop on the bandwagon and be "cool".
i just want to say that even though i think this and i don't really approve of the U.S.'s actions, and i agree with un-maimed, i was still offended anyway. kind of like in the nuking of the U.S. thread even though it was a joke, and i did the same thing, there was still a little bit of offense taken when it was suggested that california be nuked.
sorry about the long post

Un-Maimed · Post by **Un-Maimed** » Wed Apr 10, 2002 7:42 pm

Thank you - someone had realised the issue isnt stopping pollution.

I also have to say - Sorry for the offense that some have taken.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Thu Apr 11, 2002 12:49 am

Originally posted by Aragorn Returns
i happen to agree with what gruntdog is saying about the US bashing. i understand un-maimed plea for help, but i think that his first sentence could be offensive. i mean, what i got out of that was basically that un-maimed thinks that it's all the U.S.'s fault for the pollution problem, that the U.S. doesn't give a **** about anybody else, and that un-maimed doesn't respect american patriotism or nationalism.

The problem is that the US is the world's biggest producer of greenhouse emissions in the world, hence the biggest proportion of blame for Australia and New Zealand's current situation lies upon the Us's shoulders. That said, Australia is amongst the worst countries in the world in terms of greenhouse emissions also, and NZ has loads of cows

, so we're hardly blameless ourselves.

Also, from what I've understood of US foreign policy, the US government doesn't appear to give a **** about other countries, unless those countries can benefit or threaten the US. However I'm not American, so I fully acknowledge the possibility that I'm mistaken.

BTW, if anyone wants to advocate nuking Australia in the "Nuclear Cleansing" thread, I'll be the first to second the motion.

Mr Flibble · Post by **Mr Flibble** » Thu Apr 11, 2002 1:23 am

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper

The problem is that the US is the world's biggest producer of greenhouse emissions in the world, hence the biggest proportion of blame for Australia and New Zealand's current situation lies upon the Us's shoulders. That said, Australia is amongst the worst countries in the world in terms of greenhouse emissions also, and NZ has loads of cows , so we're hardly blameless ourselves.

That's really the problem with world pollution: We're all guily of pollution, the greenhouse effect and the hole in the ozone layer, but no one seems willing to take responsibility for their actions. These problems can't be fixed overnight, but everyone who contributes to the problem needs to take an active role in trying to slow down the rate at which waste materials and gas emissions are created and disposed of. Here, however, the US is very guilty. The US pullout from the Kyoto agreements and the purchasing of pollution quota from other nations really isn't acceptable from a 'global community' view. It may cost a ton now, but imagine how bad things are going to be in fifty years if pollution keeps up at the current pace.

The situation with American policy on this issue seems to be "I'm the biggest and strongest, so why do I have to listen to the rest of you?" That's not really a good attitude for the big guys to take. If every major nation acted like that we'll be lucky to see the year 2100. Point of interest - US/NZ formal relations were cut off in the 80's simply because we refused to allow nuclear powered or nuclear armed naval vessels into our waters. Essentailly we were punished for our views. The US pulled out of an international accord because it conflicted with their views. Result? Other nations get annoyed, but the US gets away with it.

Now, I have considerable respect for the United States, but if the US government wants to be seen as the 'leaders of the free world' then they need to look at more than just democracy, freedom and justice.

Just a few more cents worth.