best sling ever???

[UserUnfriendly]

Slings are great in bg 2 tob, but a lot of debate happens. in fact, all the missile weapons, a lot of debate happens. but found our something i have never seen before..


was in windspear hills, finished off the were wolves in the dragon lair, for fun sent in jahiera who is shapeshifter fighter in , became a bigger badder wolf, and whacked them. the g werewolf is really great defensively, offensively it mildy sucks, +3 weapons, not so hot with her and spectral brand in watchers...

anyway, decided to wack those troll and werewlf guys arguing...

had jahirea with hill giant str belt, and sling of everard with +2 bullets loaded, early in the game, found out sling of everard without ammo you get no str bonus, but with +2 bullets it does around 25 damage a shot!!! cool...
whakced troll, it died, and then got slay effect!!! last shot according to stats was jahira, her sling finished off a troll down and regenerating, without using arrows of biting, acid or fire....

near as I can figure, the "ghost" bullet effect is as good for slaying downed trolls, but without ammo, you wont get significant damage efect...but with ammo, despite the limits of the ammo + 2...it will still do the slay effect, but will also add str bonus!!!

in fact, with +3 bullets, I should be able to get serious damage per hit on iron adamatium golems!!!

so while the erlinmere sling upgrades to +6, and does slightly higher damage, you are in effect sending a slay effect ghost bullet with every shot of the sling of everard...

this should be the same for tansheron bow.

well, that extra slay effect makes the sling of everard with bullets the best in ga,e, IMHO...

[Baldursgate Fan]

Originally posted by UserUnfriendly
Slings are great in bg 2 tob, but a lot of debate happens. in fact, all the missile weapons, a lot of debate happens. but found our something i have never seen before..

near as I can figure, the "ghost" bullet effect is as good for slaying downed trolls, but without ammo, you wont get significant damage efect...but with ammo, despite the limits of the ammo + 2...it will still do the slay effect, but will also add str bonus!!!

in fact, with +3 bullets, I should be able to get serious damage per hit on iron adamatium golems!!!

so while the erlinmere sling upgrades to +6, and does slightly higher damage, you are in effect sending a slay effect ghost bullet with every shot of the sling of everard...

this should be the same for tansheron bow.

well, that extra slay effect makes the sling of everard with bullets the best in ga,e, IMHO...

Dear User,

I will always welcome constructive, useful and beneficial debates from you or anyone else! It is when discussions turn into uncalled-for and unprovoked flames and trolling sessions that I take exception to.

There have been contentious issues regarding speed factors versus extra attacks in the past, and I suspect there will continue to be such debates on this matter. It all boils down to taste and preference at the end of the day, IMHO. Which weapon are you comfortable in using? Which weapon DO YOU LIKE?

I will keep my ranting thoughts to one paragraph. Back to the subject:

I share your opinion that Sling of Everad is the best sling there is in the game in most situations. Slings are great long-distance weapons, and IMHO, even better than other long-distance weapons due to the superior speed factor and the fact that they are ONE-HANDED weapons. Picture this, whacking enemies with Sling of Everad AND Sling of Erinne!

Equals INSANE amounts of damage, baby!

For me personally, I prefer TWO ONE-HANDED weapons killing enemies simultaneously to ONE TWO-HANDED weapon with extra attack per round. If you add up the damage, in most cases, I believe you will see that dual wielding slings is more damaging than a two-handed weapon with extra attack per round.

Will check out the Sling of Erinne and the bullets you mentioned tonight. And BTW, just a minor correction, the Sling of Erinne is +4 initially and can be upgraded by a certain imp to +5, not 6.

Cheers, buddy!

[Astafas]

Re: Re: best sling ever???

Originally posted by Baldursgate Fan

If you add up the damage, in most cases, I believe you will see that dual wielding slings is more damaging than a two-handed weapon with extra attack per round.

I truly had no idea you could dual wield slings. Are you certain?

[Alson]

Re: Re: Re: best sling ever???

Originally posted by Astafas


I truly had no idea you could dual wield slings. Are you certain?

No, you can't.
If you could've, that would be AWESOME!
Imagine Aerie Armed with two slings, Imp. Hasted AND TENSERED

[Baldursgate Fan]

@Astafas,

Unfortunately, no! Not without major hacking.

I have read in other forums about dual wielding ranged weapons, but that doesn't happen easily. I tried to equip my PC with two ranged weapons via SK and editing, it didn't work and my game crashed.

User has an innate ability to hack stuff and I was trying to fire him up by saying, "Picture this...!"

Still, sling in the right hands with the right bullets is potent stuff.

Will revert once I try out the bullets.

Cheers.

[Aranan]

I was trying to figure out how in the heck someone could really dual wield slings. You'd need 4 arms!

Anyway, I've never really considered using slings as a viable weapon. I've always thought they were just the dinky weapons you give to your casters so they can contribute somewhat in fights where you don't want to cast spells.

[Baldursgate Fan]

@User

in fact, with +3 bullets, I should be able to get serious damage per hit on iron adamatium golems!!!

Yes, I found that I was able to hit Adamantite Golems, but it sure took one heck of a long time! The damage per hit wasn't serious at all.

Switched to the tulgian bow with extra attack, could only achieve +1 and wasn't able to touch them... Unless you find a way to hack and equip +3 arrows or better, can't use it on those golems or trolls, for that matter. The bow with improved haste equipped with +3 arrows is a better option.

Sling of Everad, with +5, was a better sling, but still... not enough serious damage. So is Aranan right after all, that slings are dinky weapons for use when spell casters run out of spells and have no choice but to be involved in melee?

The subject is still on better slings, of course, it's just that without strength bonuses that bows confer, I am gradually coming round to the point that slings might not be better.

So, back to the drawing board for me. While having four arms is an entertaining thought, unless we can find a way to hack the unused slot for another sling, or transpose all the damage effects of one sling to another, this is a lost cause.

[Obsidian]

Neato, not sure I follow, but in essence the sling if firing the magical bullet created by the sling, AND the one in the quiver. Cool.
Sling of seeking has a place in my heart for chars with massive strength. Girdle of fire Giant str and sling of seeking is fun.

[Baldursgate Fan]

@User

I have taken a short break from the forums to do a little research on my own regarding ranged weapons, namely, slings and bows.

The way I did it was to play several test games to prove or disprove my own theories, and in many cases, I have found my views to be simply dead wrong. I believe it is a matter of courtesy to check my statements for errors before putting them in the forum so as not to mislead others who are looking for answers here. My deepest apologies to all and sundry if I have not always done so.

As this thread is solely on slings, I have put my analysis of bows together with this thread for easy reference and comparison. I refer new members to Stilgar’s post for a better understanding of bows. My sincere thanks to Stilgar, Ned, Astafas, User, Mabrook and Sojourner for making me realize the errors of my ways and pointing me in the right direction.

Slight general spoilers ahead.
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On to the topic proper, since bullets are considered as blunt weapons, they are very useful against skeletons and golems, especially admanantite. I can verify User’s findings that the Sling of Everard´s ghost bullets can destroy adamantite golems and there is the sling or Arvoreen +4 that gives +4 on damage and THACO. In the later stages of the game I found Jaheira use slings with about 20+ damage each hit while attacking twice per round (imagine a grandmaster with slings and 4 attacks per round).

What puzzled me most was the little, if at all, damage that the A. golem was taking from the Sling of Everad, at about 2 hp per hit. SLOW! IIRC, strength neither influences arrow damage nor does it influence ranged weapon THACO. The fact is that you need a +3 weapon just to hit it. Then I found out that the damage is seemingly useless not because he has resistance but will only take a maximum of 2 damage per hit, even from ghost bullets. Crit hits can double that to 4 damage. So User’s strategy above means that you basically need as many people hitting it as possible (with ranged weapons). If going solo, like what I did for BUN BUN, you can have her firing from behind a small door, take a shower, come back, and the A golem is still standing LOL!

On a side note, I discovered that the Everad Sling gave strength bonuses that adds damage. I saw a Baldurdash patch that corrected this, so up to here, I am still not sure whether it should have this bonus. Any ideas?

Related to the strenght attribute above is dexterity; I have found that the manual is incomplete and at best inaccurate, so the findings below are updated. I have no qualms about people correcting me here – since that’s a good way to learn – and with that in mind, I have put my following calculations below for transparency; any corrections will be welcome since they will be useful.

Determination of THACO on dexterity in usage of ranged weapons:

dex 0 = -20
dex 1 = -6
dex 2 = -4
dex 3 = -3
dex 4 = -2
dex 5 = -1
dex 6-15 = no bonus
dex 16 = +1
dex 17-18 = +2
dex 19-20 = +3
dex 21-23 = +4
dex 24-25 = +5

GRAND MASTERY: At this level the character receives a +2 to hit and +3 to damage with the selected weapon. He also gains an extra 1/2 attack per round with the selected weapon. He gains a -1 to speed factor with the selected weapon.

Before moving onto bows and archers in detail, I have to mention that, while I am not sure if it is the best way to go, grandmastery in the sling is not the worst thing that can happen to an archer, although that is an admittedly unlikely scenario.

Advantages of an archer using slings: -
Multiple attacks per round.

He could use sling of seeking and get strength bonuses to damage, in addition to normal archer bonuses, magic bonuses, and grand mastery bonuses.

He could also use the Sling of Everard and get +5 weapon attacks
Use a shield in the off hand (and that is what the off-hand is for, stupid me!).

That may not be the best choice, but my view is that no one could use a sling (or bow) better than an archer, and it might be good to have him use the Sling of Everard against A. golems and the like.

*+1 to hit and +1 to damage with any missile weapon for every three levels. This results in +5 to hit/+5 damage at level 15.
* Archers can get Grand Mastery (5 *****) in Missile Weapons.
* Called Shot is not very useful, IMHO.

So, an archer with the Sling of Avoreen, for example, and bullets + 2, without haste and bracers of archery, would achieve the following damage at lvl 18:-

5/2 attacks(ie 2 ½ attacks) @
= bullet damage (1d4+3) = 4-7 damage
+ 4 weapon bonus damage = 8-11 damage
+ 7 from archer bonus = 15-18 damage
+ 3 from grandmastery = 18-21 damage
-----------------------------------------------------------
resulting in 5/2 x 18-21 = 45-52.5 damage

With the Everad Sling, his performance will be:
5/2 attacks(ie 2 ½ attacks) @
= bullet damage (1d4+3) = 4-7 damage
+ 5 weapon bonus damage = 9- 12 damage
+ 7 from archer bonus = 16-19 damage
+ 3 from grandmastery = 19-22 damage
-----------------------------------------------------------
resulting in 5/2 x 19-22 = 47- 55 damage

This is based on my belief that the two slings above are the best to be found in the game.

I have niggling doubts as to whether bullets get strength bonuses, but I was unable to confirm this during testing, so I stand corrected on the above calculation. It is of mainly theoretical value, of course.

There is a problem however; I tried an archer using a sling in one of my test games. The archer as the ultimate "ranged weapon god" can only become grandmaster with crossbows, shortbows and longbows - using slings he is restricted to ** like a normal ranger – archers cannot have 5 ***** in slings. Bug? Well - IMHO slings as weapons are just as ranged as crossbows or bows ... go figure!

Conclusion on slings:

It is fair at this stage to say that for a Sorc, Cleric and/or Mage characters, I will use slings, simply because for ranged weapons, there is no other choice. For my conclusion, in gameplay terms, slings will always be inferior to bows, that is, attacks per round, damage, strength bonuses, grandmastery, etc. The sling is somewhat underrated and misunderstood by the developers despite the fact that they are formidable weapons.

And YES, Sling of Everad does appear to be the best sling, from my academic calculations above.

Lastly, I can now say with certainty that an extra ranged attack is almost always preferable to 1 more damage per hit. This is something I found out during game play testing and henceforth, I will always choose the ranged weapon that can give me the most attacks. (Tuigan comes to mind, special thanks to Ned).

[Baldursgate Fan]

Follow up on bows and archers

This related post is too big to be put together with my previous one on slings, hence the double posting. Apologies in advance!

Bows and archers

Best bows? Subjective, to say the least. Hmm, I don’t want to be the cause of any flames, so what I have to say on this subject will be very general, other than a few calculations!

The reason I chose archers in test games is because only they have grandmastery, so fighters and NPCs like Mazzy and Valygar don’t figure largely in my calculations, though I have used them to prove in testing that they are not as good without grandmastery. (Duh to myself!)

Before I go on, to satisfy the roleplayers, such as Littiz, (as opposed to powergamers, sorry User!), I have to say that for purely role playing purposes, the following “rule of thumb” is a good guide:

Thieves – light crossbows
Paladins – heavy crossbows (Keldorn eg has proficiency)
Mage (EDIT: deleted cleric) types – shortbows
Archers and fighters – longbows

Having said that and going back to powergaming (old habits die hard!), I am not paying too much attention in archers with crossbows because to start with, he needs a maximum number of attacks to maximize the use of his damage bonuses per hit.

Hence, using bows (mostly 7/2 ie 3.5 attacks) will be better than crossbows (5/2, therefore 2.5 MAXIMUM).

Without going into too much detail, crossbows are clearly inferior to other bows when used by an archer, notwithstanding some of the massive bolt damage (eg Kua Toa bolts in the underdark) that can be derived with extra attack and damage bonuses.

Now to the bows. Shortbows have the advantage of not needing ammo (Tansheron's and Gesen's bows). As for Crossbows, well, there is a +5 crossbow in SoA (you find it when killing Bhaal's guards, for the Unseeing Eye quest). And longbows, there are not as many good longbows in BG2 as there are short- and cross-bows.

Therefore, I have narrowed my search to 3 special bows; the Tuigan, the Tansheron and the Gesen. The bare facts are as follows:

A lvl-18 archer using the bow of the tuigan will theoretically have:

9/2 attacks (+2 arrows) @
= basic arrow damage (1d6+2) = 3-8 damage
+ 1 damage from the bow = 4-9 damage
+ 7 from archer bonus = 11-16 damage
+ 3 from grandmastery = 14-19 damage
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
resulting in 9/2 x 14-19 = 63-85.5 damage. Obscene damage!

Tansheron's bow will deal out:

7/2 attacks @
= ghost arrow damage (1d6) = 1-6 damage
no bonus damage from the bow = 1-6 damage
+ 7 from archer bonus = 8-13 damage
+ 3 from grandmastery = 11-16 damage
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
resulting in 7/2 x 11-16 = 38,5-56 damage

However, the ghost arrows are +3 so they can hurt iron & adamantite golems.

The bow becomes more useful when used with conventional arrows. With arrows +2 Tansheron’s bow would cause 7/2 x 14-24 = 49-84 damage – given the effects add up.

Gesen's bow he will theoretically cause:

7/2 attacks @
= basic arrow damage (piercing; 2) = 2 damage
+ 1-8 electrical damage = 3-10
+ 1 damage from the crossbow = 4-11 damage
+ 7 from archer bonus = 11-18 damage
+ 3 from grandmastery = 14-21 damage
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
resulting in 7/2 x 14-21 = 49-73,5 damage

As above, Gesen’s bows becomes more effective when used with conventional arrows. With arrows +2 Gesen’s bow would cause 7/2 x 17-29 = massive 59,5-101,5 ! damage – assuming the opponent is not resistant to electricity.

Average damages with a balanced party using the above bows, in a random underdark encounter, I get:

Archer (PC): 13 to 15 damage each hit
Fighter (Mazzy): 6 to 10 damage each hit
Slinger (Jaheira): 18 to 20 each hit (blunt damage).

The real game looks very different with shields, armor, resistances, luck of the throw, etc.

Conclusion:

It can’t be emphasized enough that the damages are of theoretical value only. However, the above numbers seem to indicate that bows generally are awesome weapons in the archer’s hands. This applies to fighters on a smaller scale, the prime examples being Mazzy, who has prociency in shortbows, Minsc in longbows, and Keldorn in heavy crossbows (he is incredible with the crossbow of accuracy!)

So which is the best bow? I am chickening out on this one! It’s always down to personal preference and how you like to play the game. As for myself, I am partial to Tansheron and the Gesen (just for killing the A. golems, if nothing else!). They require no ammo, and since they are implemented as such in the game, why not make use of them? It can also be said that with the Tuigan's 4 rounds per attack, enemy mages are dead meat!

Thanks for putting up with my rambling.

Cheers!

[Astafas]

Re: Follow up on bows and archers

Originally posted by Baldursgate Fan
The reason I chose archers in test games is because only they have grandmastery, so fighters and NPCs like Mazzy and Valygar don’t figure largely in my calculations, though I have used them to prove in testing that they are not as good without grandmastery. (Duh to myself!)

Mazzy has Grand Mastery in Short Bows.

[Astafas]

Re: Follow up on bows and archers

Originally posted by Baldursgate Fan
Thieves – light crossbows
Paladins – heavy crossbows (Keldorn eg has proficiency)
Mage/cleric classes – shortbows
Archers and fighters – longbows

A Cleric can't use Bows.

[Baldursgate Fan]

Re: Re: Follow up on bows and archers

Originally posted by Astafas


A Cleric can't use Bows.

Thanks, Astafas, I have edited it and taken note of Mazzy's grandmastery.

[Aranan]

Wow, that's great research. Thanks BGFan!

[Baldursgate Fan]

Why, thank you, Aranan. I am still learning a lot about the game, thanks to this forum.

Cheers.