Edwin v a Sorceress?

GNGSpam · Post by **GNGSpam** » Fri May 03, 2002 3:13 pm

This really is kind of a moot argument considering that
1) There are no NPC sorceresses, which means if you are taking a mage its not like you have to choose between Edwin or a Sorceress
2) The main PC cant recreate Edwins spell power since his mass of spells is due to his unremovable amulet.

BUT

For the sake of argument. I read everyone chattering about the oh so great Sorcresses, but no one actually considers them better then Edwin do they? It seems completely illogical to think so. Edwin has vastly more spells and has a significantly better spell selection.

I could see playing a sorceress over a mage for your NPC, but I cant see how anyone would not acknowledge Edwin as by far the best Spellcaster in the game.

Alson · Post by **Alson** » Fri May 03, 2002 3:44 pm

Ahhh...
You might want to try and read this post.. by... me

I've said the exact same thing!
Edwin Vs. Sorcerers, Round One

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Fri May 03, 2002 3:50 pm

I won't deny that Edwin is a phenomenal spell caster. However, I still prefer sorcerers. Granted, Edwin has a greater selection of spells, but at least a third of SoA spells are fairly useless. Sorcerers receive fewer spells, but you can have them learn the best of each level.
Moreover, each spell can be cast something like six times, and if you give a sorcerer the amulet of metaspell influence and the rings of wizardry and acuity.....it is not simply a question of receiving a few extra spells. Rather, each spell selected for the said level can be cast an additional time. So, for example, if you give a sorcerer the amulet of metaspell influence, you don't just get one extra level two spell....instead the sorcerer will be able to cast every level two spell contained in his book an extra time.....

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Fri May 03, 2002 4:42 pm

Another big advantage is one that is often overlooked. It is very easy to roll up a good sorceror. You don't have to have a certain intelligence to know or cast spells you can just put the stats as you like them. But I guess this was just about Edwin and not mages in general... just my thoughts anyway.
And dual-classed characters...
To roll up a dual classed character is difficult and IMO a bit cheesy... You wouldn't train as a fighter if you had 15 strenght and 17 intelligence now would you?
That is one of the reasons I like multis better.
In PnP dualclassed characters were very rare, atleast when I used to play 2nd edition, now in 3rd it is a better system really.

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Fri May 03, 2002 5:23 pm

I have recently been thinking a similar thing...I am playing a sorcerer at the moment, and don't know what all the fuss is about. I think specialist mages are better, and Edwin even better than that. @Dragon Wench,

Rather, each spell selected for the said level can be cast an additional time. So, for example, if you give a sorcerer the amulet of metaspell influence, you don't just get one extra level two spell....instead the sorcerer will be able to cast every level two spell contained in his book an extra time.....

have you ever played a sorceror? I am only just starting out, and am certainly not a sorceror authority, but as far as I can see, the Metaspell Influence Amulet lets you cast one extra level two spell (although you can chose which one at the time of casting). As far as I can see, a Sorceror is pretty mch like a mage who has all the spells learned, but just memorises the best spells from each level several times (i.e pretty much like any other mage). There is a slight advantage to being a sorceror in that you can chose at any moment which spell to use, instead of having to chose at the begining of the day, but as a mage you have a greater selection, and as a specialist mage you have far more spells. Am I missing something, or are socerors not all they're cracked up to be?

GNGSpam · Post by **GNGSpam** » Fri May 03, 2002 7:16 pm

So, for example, if you give a sorcerer the amulet of metaspell influence, you don't just get one extra level two spell....instead the sorcerer will be able to cast every level two spell contained in his book an extra time.....

Uh no? You get 7 spells instead of 6 and you can use them to cast any 2nd level spell you want, but its still 7. You dont get 7 spells PER 2nd level spell! That would be insane.

That said, I honestly dont see how there is any argument.

Assuming its your first time through, I could see a tangible advantage of a Sorcress over Edwin, because you couldnt be suprised with a completely inappropiate spell book (looky here, not a single breech and we have 2 wizards to fight)

But, that said, lets be real here. All of us have played it through and its not like we dont know roughly what to expect. Edwin has a significant amount more spells on every level. Plus he is more versatile because he has a MUCH larger spell selection. Granted, on a lot of levels youll never use more then 6 types fo spells. Except where it counts.

Lets take level 7 for example.
Delayed Blast Fireball
Finger of Death
Limited Wish
Mordekans Sword
Prismitac Spray
Project Image
Ruby Ray of Reversal
Spell Sequencer
Spell Turning

9 spells that I would use in more then one situation in the game. You could probably take out Limited Wish and just cast it from a scroll maybe.

Yeah, sure I could get along without 2 of those spells. But why should I have too?

Especially when, and this is important, Edwin has more spells I just see no advantage for the Sorcress over Edwin.

Edit - The lack of spell selection is more accute at the middle levels like 3 or 6, I just randomly choose one as an example.

island007 · Post by **island007** » Fri May 03, 2002 7:28 pm

Yes, I would take Edwin. The sorceror is better than a mage or a specialist mage, but Edwin is better than a sorceror. IMHO

Casius · Post by **Casius** » Fri May 03, 2002 7:41 pm

Definately Sorcerer. I've come to the conclusion sorcerer simply is a better class in every way. Perhaps, not at the low low levels, however, 12+ definately sorcerer.

GNGSpam · Post by **GNGSpam** » Fri May 03, 2002 7:58 pm

Definately Sorcerer. I've come to the conclusion sorcerer simply is a better class in every way. Perhaps, not at the low low levels, however, 12+ definately sorcerer.

Discussing whether or not a Sorcress is superior to Edwin. its purely hypothetical of course, but still thats the topic

Did you mean a Sorcress is better then Edwin in every way? If so, by all means, please explain how so.

gnomethingy · Post by **gnomethingy** » Fri May 03, 2002 8:28 pm

my reason for favouring a sorc is purely a game issue

There are not enough good spells.. If there were ten good spells per lvl you might feel like your sorcerer was missing out on something aside from key spell lvls like lvl 7 your sorcerer get everything he needs and is FAR more versatile than any mage

Sorcerers dont need intelligence and as such can stack wisdom and dex for ac / wishes and still have enough points left over for 16 constitution

Consider Edwin from all his angles.. his dex is bad, his wisdom sucks and while its ture that his ammulet gives him more spells it precludes the use of an amulet of power

If the mackers had made edwin inatly a better spellcaster than anyone else ie no amulet but still loads more spells and if there were more than about 3 spells worth using per spell lvl then I would concede to edwin

Thats my 2c

Glod · Post by **Glod** » Fri May 03, 2002 8:35 pm

I prefer to rest very rarely so actually I'd probably go for Sorceress. If you were resting for the next battle then sure edwin wins on spellcount, but if you're resting once every chapter or two then who knows exactly how many of each spell you'll need down the line. That flexiblity is great. Also I try very hard not to plan based on my "unfair" knowledge since I've played the game before.

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Sat May 04, 2002 2:16 am

In my experience a sorceror goes on a little longer because you wont rest until all your spells are used up whereas with Edwin you will because you wont use all the spells you have memorised, unless you really plan ahead using your knowledge of what lies ahead.( Which IMO Edwin shouldn't be able to do since divination is his opposite school

).
Now the big advantage for the sorceror comes at level 7.
Project Image!!!
This is the only level 7 spell my Sorceror will cast. All the other level 7 spells will be cast from the Image. With the extra spell, ring of wizardry, circlet of netheril this is 9 spells. Meaning I will have access to my whole spellbook 9 times. If you have Edwin memorize only Project Image then you wont cast Mordenkainens sword, spell sequencer, Limited wish etc. Same goes for level 8 and Simulacrum(once your level is high enough).
And even more so when you get level 9 spells and quest level spells.
Also Chain Contingencies and triggers work well for Sorcerors because they are more likely to have the three spells they want to place in the trigger memorized. They will also be more able to use Wish to good effect thus eliminating rest problem.
Having the ability to cast 9 project Images and then cast Wish with your Image(who downs a potion of insight first) means you will always be able to cast often enough to get the rest option. With Edwin You wouldn't want to miss out on all the other beefy 10/9 level spells such as Improved alacrity, Timestop, Imprisonment, Chain C, Shapechange, Dragons Breath.
Remember a Sorceror will have almost all the Juicy 10/9 level spells in his/her spellbook since the 10 level spells are abilities. Edwin has to memorize them!!
It is simply no contest if you ask me...
However Wildmage... another story.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Sat May 04, 2002 2:24 am

sorcerer...

duh for me...bun bun rules alll!!!!

simply put this....

2 chain contingency expends 6 abu dahims, then you cast greater acuity and 4 more dragon breaths,,,,

here comes jan with dust pan and small, very very small broom to sweep up the twisted rune crew,

(oh my god, the sola mod rocks so well...ended up having both tashia and bun bun stack dragon breaths, in the twisted rune ended up having bun bun project image and summoned 4 demonic planetars...another thing sorcs can do...you need to plan out such a maneuver as mage, and even then you expend so many spell slots, no ofense left....)

sorcs can keep conjuring when edwin runs out of usefull spells..quite simply, most people love abu dahzim and chain contingency, and dragon breaths, so which would you have??

7 of each possible or mix of whatever you decided on the last rest???

i love sorcs, and having bun bun ad tashia is a party!!!

whoo hoo!!

Glod · Post by **Glod** » Sat May 04, 2002 4:07 pm

Hehe. Well I'm all for sorceror over mages including Edwin but I don't really think "Look how badly you can exploit bugs with Sorceror" is the best way to argue for them. Chain contingency is supposed to be a 1 turn cast, meaning you should not be casting it in battle.

island007 · Post by **island007** » Fri May 10, 2002 1:30 pm

Hi,

I stand correctd. I initially thought Edwin was better than a sorceress. I was mistaken. I picked up Tashia and she rocks. There is no reason to tolerate evil Edwin anymore. When I first got her level 10 (can't remember), she was slightly than Edwin. At levels 11-14 it was about a wash. Level 15 she passes by Edwin, she continues to get better. I used Bruce's ideas excellent. I can't wait till she gets into the 20's.

Also, Edwin made using Holy Smite risky for your cleric; you had to make sure Edwin was out of the way. Edwin is also a jerk. I just tolerated him because of his awesome magic abilities. Well no more.

The blinders are off.

Thanks
Leonard

mynamewasstolen · Post by **mynamewasstolen** » Fri May 10, 2002 4:29 pm

Edwin is Ok but not the best

Edwin is pretty good: he has decent stats, gets lots of spells and is humourous. But he has three major faults: no divination, and low wisdom. No divination means no identify, no clairvoance, no wizard eye. Eventually his extra spell slots cease to be a big deal as creatures with magic resistence become more prevelent. Imoen is overall more usefull.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri May 10, 2002 11:21 pm

In SoA, I think Edwin is superior to a sorc. He's got more spells at the allowable level ceiling than a sorc could possibly match. In ToB, however, I'd go for the sorc anyday. The sheer number of extra levels means that a sorc will get all the high-level spells they want, and then it becomes a matter of flexibility, which is all in the favor of sorcs and against mages. Just my POV.